School Shooting in Connecticut - Multiple Fatalities

[Kulverint]

Again, in my country I have never seen police being stationed at any school, or heard of it, so you are wrong on "every country." In fact, once again, the only country I've heard of it happening is the USA. Where all the massacres happen.

Not all massacres happen in the U.S.

I love how Americans (and some non-Americans, respectably) on this thread are talking about real issues such as gun control and treatment of mental disorders, and several non-Americans are bringing up ad-hominem issues such as why Americans have police at high school.

Mate, you brought it up.

And from your article: "Not included are school massacres, workplace killings, hate crimes or familicides, which form their own categories."

[Moruo]

welcome to the interweb

We're all on the internet. All of us. You're the only one whose writing like that. You basically just walked into a party shit on the carpet, and then tried to write it off by saying "it's a party bro."

why so serious?
nobody cares if you make grammar faults in the internet

[Daelos Tribes]

Gun control laws are generally ineffective.

Get a better source please.

That is in no way a bad source

To be fair, though, I think that if the gun ban was at something above the district level it would've been vastly more effective. Especially since the district could be left with a fair amount of ease.

Then again, you could also have a checkpoint system wherein you're searched for guns, so...

[Virana]

Not all massacres happen in the U.S.

I love how Americans (and some non-Americans, respectably) on this thread are talking about real issues such as gun control and treatment of mental disorders, and several non-Americans are bringing up ad-hominem issues such as why Americans have police at high school.

Mate, you brought it up.

And from your article: "Not included are school massacres, workplace killings, hate crimes or familicides, which form their own categories."

Not really me who brought it up, but alright, that's a non-issue at this point.

In addition, that article itself listed the first 15 massacres on the school massacres section. The most common countries seem to be (and this is with just a glance) U.S., Germany, and especially China.

In fact, U.K. had the 4th deadliest one; granted, that was back in 1996 iirc.

[Chernoslavia]

Okay, how do you propose we achieve that?

Sorry to say but, I dont think theres any 100 percent effective method to avoid tragedies like this one. These things are just going to happen, guns or no guns. In my opinion if we have the resources, Id say we get a few police officers stationed in school areas. My school has done it. Some schools in Florida have.

[Tmutarakhan]

Not all massacres happen in the U.S.

Not "all", but the US has more than any other country by a rather wide margin.

[Cannot think of a name]

Figure it out. It's your hobby. This is your hobby's problem. And it's become all of our problem. You don't like the solutions people have come up with? Fine. Solve it. Figure it out or eventually we will. You can only shame people for reacting to a tragedy so often before they get fed up. And you know what? That solution might suck. It might be ineffective and end up restricting you more than reducing these things. You don't like that, I understand. Fix it. Don't ask me, I'm not the one who wants the gun. Keep your problem from becoming our problem. Be part of the solution instead of blaming us for noticing the problem.

By definition most responsible gun owners are trying to do precisely that.

Don't waste ink trying to convince me you're doing something, do it. You wasted your only post in the thread on me.

As a gun owner and as someone with a psychological and medical background, I can see both sides of the argument. The problem comes when gun owners look from the bottom up - i.e. "I am exercising proper regard and safe use practices over my own weapon(s)" and everyone else looks from the top down - i.e. "All gun owners are responsible for all other gun owners".

Except you are. I say this again: It's your hobby. You want the guns, not us. I'm fine with that if you can work out how to not make it everybody's problem. Stop scolding us for being horrified. It's not helping.

So work with us if you want us to work with you. Guns in the household increase the prevalence of suicides. Fine. Increase the funding for mental health. Guns in the community increase the prevalence of homicides. Fine. Increase the funding for law enforcement.

You'll find no resistance from the side you're scolding here.

But DO NOT make the mistake of banning guns, because it will trigger a backlash from the gun-owning community. A common sentiment is " 'I carry a gun, because a cop is too heavy.' "

This is in fact the very attitude I have been talking about this whole time.

I will also ask gun control advocates to note the following. It is clearly not beyond criminals to assault even policemen for their weapons (second example), thus a knee-jerk ban on weapons is impractical.

Fine. Figure it out. Don't scold us, don't act like the victim after someone takes one of your guns and kills actual victims. Figure it out.

That said, I refuse to debate this any further. I am equally infuriated by the immediate stance of some pro-gun rights individuals that, among other things, concealed handgun carry legal age should be further lowered. Complete nonsense.

At least there is that.

[Kulverint]

Mate, you brought it up.

And from your article: "Not included are school massacres, workplace killings, hate crimes or familicides, which form their own categories."

Not really me who brought it up, but alright, that's a non-issue at this point.

In addition, that article itself listed the first 15 massacres on the school massacres section. The most common countries seem to be (and this is with just a glance) U.S., Germany, and especially China.

And in the top 10, 5 are America. Can you honestly not see the link?

[AiliailiA]

Heh, yes. I'd rather argue it on principle but that practicality argument is good too.

So, following the same arguement i could say that fighting poverty or searching for a cure for aids is impractical and therefor laws need be made to restrict sex and whatever "practical" solution there is for poverty?

Oh don't be silly. Arguments by analogy are just silly.

How does a strict gun law make mentally or neurologically sick people not commit crime?
does it impact their ability to get some basic ingredients from the local hardwarestore and supermarket and just bomb a school instead of shooting people?

It makes it harder for them.

I'll say this for a third time ... because it's a long fast thread and I don't flatter myself that my few posts have been read ... we should not make gun law on the basis of what prevents or enables mass murders. Such murders are a small minority of murders, and are generally committed with planning. They could be restricted somewhat by restrictions on gun ownership, but the strongest argument for gun control is the prevention of the far more prevalent single murders. Crimes of passion, and crimes committed at the point of a gun, which either would not be undertaken at all or would not be so fatal without access to a gun.

It's the people without previous criminal record, arming themselves for perhaps legitimate reasons but later using their gun to commit crime, which most concern me. The majority of gun crimes in the USA are committed with legally owned weapons. The "shall issue" default, of government needing to show cause why a citizen should not have a gun rather than the citizen needing to show cause why they should, is causing most of the deaths and enabling most of the crime committted at the point of a gun. And I don't mean harmless bird-watchers being disturbed by the sound of hunter's gun: I mean rapes and kidnappings, and people being forced to commit crimes at the point of a gun. Not just property crimes, but all sorts of crime against the person which are enabled by easy access to guns for the criminal.

Gun control advocates like myself should avoid "making hay" of headline-making killings like the thread subject killing. We should not hold out the false promise that gun control can stop mass killings. Maybe in this case it could have, but still we should not make hay.

[Virana]

Not really me who brought it up, but alright, that's a non-issue at this point.

In addition, that article itself listed the first 15 massacres on the school massacres section. The most common countries seem to be (and this is with just a glance) U.S., Germany, and especially China.

And in the top 10, 5 are America. Can you honestly not see the link?

I don't remember arguing against the fact that the U.S. has the most massacres. I did mention however that it's not the only place where mass killings occur. Part of that has to do with better gun control restrictions in several countries, and the other part is the really shitty system of attacking personality disorders before this type of stuff occurs. I think the only issue I wa arguing was the fact that all massacres aren't just in the U.S., and that campus police exist in other countries (including the UK, for which I gave you a Guardian article iirc).

Fact of the matter is that the root of the issue is the mental health. In every massacre or mass killing, the two things in common have been the use of weapons (firearms or not—knives and other weapons have been used as well) and faulty mental health of the perpetrator. Mind --> body --> guns --> crime.

How about we focus on that rather than why high schools have police officers?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Not to butt in, but the wording used was "[A]nd turned that right into a monster in the process".
The poster didn't call any group monsters.

Is there any other "right" wing arty in America?

The context was "right" as in "right to bear arms", not "right" as in "right-wing".

[Greed and Death]

Get a better source please.

That is in no way a bad source

To be fair, though, I think that if the gun ban was at something above the state level it would've been vastly more effective. Especially since the state could be left with a fair amount of ease.

Then again, you could also have a checkpoint system wherein you're searched for guns, so...

Freaknomics is a good source.

Given the original article posted did not address gun laws generally, it addressed citywide gun bans.

And the author is correct they dont work, people go to the gun shop in the suburbs and buy a gun if they want one. The author did point out that harsher sentencing for people who use a gun in the commission of a crime reduces gun violence rates.

[Daelos Tribes]

Freaknomics is a good source.

Given the original article posted did not address gun laws generally, it addressed citywide gun bans.

And the author is correct they dont work, people go to the gun shop in the suburbs and buy a gun if they want one. The author did point out that harsher sentencing for people who use a gun in the commission of a crime reduces gun violence rates.

Well, yeah, but if guns were also banned in the suburbs, they couldn't do that.

So to some extent it just shows the ineffectiveness of non-universal gun bans.

I'd prefer to find an alternate method to gun bans, but I'll have to think that one over.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

And in the top 10, 5 are America. Can you honestly not see the link?

I don't remember arguing against the fact that the U.S. has the most massacres. I did mention however that it's not the only place where mass killings occur. Part of that has to do with better gun control restrictions in several countries, and the other part is the really shitty system of attacking personality disorders before this type of stuff occurs. I think the only issue I wa arguing was the fact that all massacres aren't just in the U.S., and that campus police exist in other countries (including the UK, for which I gave you a Guardian article iirc).

Fact of the matter is that the root of the issue is the mental health. In every massacre or mass killing, the two things in common have been the use of weapons (firearms or not—knives and other weapons have been used as well) and faulty mental health of the perpetrator. Mind --> body --> guns --> crime.

How about we focus on that rather than why high schools have police officers?

Because firearms are an important distinction between a school full of dead children and a school full of wounded children. Just look at the list. Although rampage killers are prevalent in both China and the United States, why is it that China dominates the bottom of the list, while the US holds most of the top?

[AiliailiA]

We're all on the internet. All of us. You're the only one whose writing like that. You basically just walked into a party shit on the carpet, and then tried to write it off by saying "it's a party bro."

why so serious?
nobody cares if you make grammar faults in the internet

You're not just "on the internet."

You're on Nationstates.net, a text-based site based around text-based roleplaying, founded by an author of books.

So yeah. Use proper spelling and grammar, or get your arse kicked from all sides. "Good enough for the internet" doesn't make it good enough for here.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

And in the top 10, 5 are America. Can you honestly not see the link?

I don't remember arguing against the fact that the U.S. has the most massacres. I did mention however that it's not the only place where mass killings occur. Part of that has to do with better gun control restrictions in several countries, and the other part is the really shitty system of attacking personality disorders before this type of stuff occurs. I think the only issue I wa arguing was the fact that all massacres aren't just in the U.S., and that campus police exist in other countries (including the UK, for which I gave you a Guardian article iirc).

Fact of the matter is that the root of the issue is the mental health. In every massacre or mass killing, the two things in common have been the use of weapons (firearms or not—knives and other weapons have been used as well) and faulty mental health of the perpetrator. Mind --> body --> guns --> crime.

How about we focus on that rather than why high schools have police officers?

Suggest you actually read the article you posted. It was a proposal and that there were actually very few coppers at schools. What this is is more in terms of liaison officers rather than coppers in the school proper actually being guards.

I can tell you now that this is not in any way indicative that having coppers is at all widespread. It is not. It is at best incredibly rare at worst its a handful of schools.

[Fartsniffage]

Police officers are at high schools to prevent crimes. That happens in every country. Preventing shootings is just one of the advantages of having police at the school. You do realize fights at high schools can become fatal?

I can tell you that in the UK, Netherlands, Germany, France, Japan, Korea, Czech Republic etc etc there are no police officers in high schools. Fucks sake.

You can tell him that but you'd be wrong. The high school my mum works at, the largest in the UK, has 2 police officers permanently on site.

[AiliailiA]

I'd prefer to find an alternate method to gun bans, but I'll have to think that one over.

I suggest surveillance.

Every legal gun would have a camera built into it, and whatever the gun is pointed at goes on the public record. For government, for your worst enemy, for stalkers and for gore-fetishists.

If gun users want to be considered "law abiding" in their use of guns, what do they have to hide?

[The UK in Exile]

I can tell you that in the UK, Netherlands, Germany, France, Japan, Korea, Czech Republic etc etc there are no police officers in high schools. Fucks sake.

You can tell him that but you'd be wrong. The high school my mum works at, the largest in the UK, has 2 police officers permanently on site.

does depend what part of the UK you live in.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

I can tell you that in the UK, Netherlands, Germany, France, Japan, Korea, Czech Republic etc etc there are no police officers in high schools. Fucks sake.

You can tell him that but you'd be wrong. The high school my mum works at, the largest in the UK, has 2 police officers permanently on site.

Yep...seems that that is the case....although the only recent numbers I can find are a FOI from Strathclyde...and I'm not sure if they are liaison or on site...

http://www.strathclyde.police.uk/about_ ... ly/104956/

So I do stand corrected (also based on my own research...how awesome am I? )

Not that many though. I'm guessing that the on sites are at schools that are know to have lots of trouble from problem students etc etc...it is still not as if every school has a copper on site...

[Greed and Death]

Freaknomics is a good source.

Given the original article posted did not address gun laws generally, it addressed citywide gun bans.

And the author is correct they dont work, people go to the gun shop in the suburbs and buy a gun if they want one. The author did point out that harsher sentencing for people who use a gun in the commission of a crime reduces gun violence rates.

Well, yeah, but if guns were also banned in the suburbs, they couldn't do that.

So to some extent it just shows the ineffectiveness of non-universal gun bans.

I'd prefer to find an alternate method to gun bans, but I'll have to think that one over.

It is the problem with New York city's gun ban, everyone takes a bus to Pennsylvania to buy a gun, like they do with fireworks.
And Pennsylvania law requires the records of the sale to be destroyed in 6 weeks.

Which explains why the mayor yells and screams for more national restrictions.

[The Reasonable]

I'd prefer to find an alternate method to gun bans, but I'll have to think that one over.

I suggest surveillance.

Every legal gun would have a camera built into it, and whatever the gun is pointed at goes on the public record. For government, for your worst enemy, for stalkers and for gore-fetishists.

If gun users want to be considered "law abiding" in their use of guns, what do they have to hide?

I thought people on the left were against surveillance (Patriot Act anyone)?

And it seems as if the whole "maximum freedom" that is the core of the left doesn't apply when it comes to guns- nor it should.

Anyways...I'm willing to bet someone's gonna remove the cameras and sell it on the black market. It'll happen, like any other effort in banning guns. Yes, background checks and closing loopholes, etc work, but a lot of mentally incompetent people are good at hiding their mental problems in order to get that gun or they can get a black market gun. The real solution is eradicating the black market and changing the gun culture- the Swiss aren't going out and murdering people left and right even if almost half the population have guns.

[The Reserected Bravo Force Empire]

What the hell is wrong with people these days? Why would someone kill little kids for no reason, it makes no sense.

[The Reserected Bravo Force Empire]

And I hope that bastard is BURNING IN HELL for what he did.

[Farnhamia]

What the hell is wrong with people these days? Why would someone kill little kids for no reason, it makes no sense.

Why does it have to make sense? The young man was unhinged.