Yet Another What the Hell is Atheism Thread

[Eoghania]

"nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God". See that "or" there?

Yes. What does that have to do with belief in God?

Belief in God is generally held to be belief in the existence of God. "Nothing is known [or can be known] of the existence [or nature] of God".

A or not A is rather binary. If you say "it isn't A", you are saying "not A". Either you believe there is a number of gods greater than or equal to one, or you don't. Or you declare that you don't know (agnosticism).

That's not how belief works. "I believe God doesn't exist," isn't the same as, "I don't believe God exists."

If you don't believe something is, you either a) believe it isn't, or b) take a stance neither way. Given b is agnosticism, what is a?

[Sociobiology]

False. Agnosticism has nothing to do with the question of belief in god/gods. You either believe or you don't.

"nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God". See that "or" there?

Now explain how "Without god" means "there is no god".

A or not A is rather binary. If you say "it isn't A", you are saying "not A". Either you believe there is a number of gods greater than or equal to one, or you don't. Or you declare that you don't know (agnosticism).

no because they are accepting both athiesm and agnosticism as partially true.


which is why I like the Dawkins' scale better.

If they're unsure, surely they're accepting both theism and atheism as possible?

which means a binary definition is flawed.
again why I like the dawkins' scale.
on which I am a 6.9 by the way.

[Mavorpen]

Belief in God is generally held to be belief in the existence of God. "Nothing is known [or can be known] of the existence [or nature] of God".

...Again. What does that have to do with belief in the existence of God? You can believe in God and admit that you do not know anything about the nature of God.

If you don't believe something is, you either a) believe it isn't, or b) take a stance neither way. Given b is agnosticism, what is a?

Or you can c) not believe it, which is atheism. B isn't agnosticism.

[Sociobiology]

Yes. What does that have to do with belief in God?

Belief in God is generally held to be belief in the existence of God. "Nothing is known [or can be known] of the existence [or nature] of God".

That's not how belief works. "I believe God doesn't exist," isn't the same as, "I don't believe God exists."

If you don't believe something is, you either a) believe it isn't, or b) take a stance neither way. Given b is agnosticism, what is a?

or are ignostic and think it is too poorly defined to make an assessment of probability.

[Seperates]

Belief in God is generally held to be belief in the existence of God. "Nothing is known [or can be known] of the existence [or nature] of God".



If you don't believe something is, you either a) believe it isn't, or b) take a stance neither way. Given b is agnosticism, what is a?

or are ignostic and think it is too poorly defined to make an assessment of probability.

Or you just don't give a shit.

[Sociobiology]

People who are unsure are agnostic - i.e. refuse to be theist or atheist.

False. Agnosticism has nothing to do with the question of belief in god/gods. You either believe or you don't.

not really, belief is not binary.

[Eoghania]

"nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God". See that "or" there?


A or not A is rather binary. If you say "it isn't A", you are saying "not A". Either you believe there is a number of gods greater than or equal to one, or you don't. Or you declare that you don't know (agnosticism).


If they're unsure, surely they're accepting both theism and atheism as possible?

which means a binary definition is flawed.
again why I like the dawkins' scale.
on which I am a 6.9 by the way.

It's a good scale, although I generally run with a simpler approach. Those who are 100% in either direction are fools refusing to accept reality (unless they have definitive proof and haven't shown the rest of us). Otherwise, you have "I believe there is a god", "I believe there is no god", and "I take a stance neither way". Theism, atheism, and agnosticism, respectively.

Belief in God is generally held to be belief in the existence of God. "Nothing is known [or can be known] of the existence [or nature] of God".

...Again. What does that have to do with belief in the existence of God? You can believe in God and admit that you do not know anything about the nature of God.

I left the parts in brackets in only for completeness - the statement stands without them, and is perhaps clearer. "Nothing is known of the existence of god". Agnosticism.

If you don't believe something is, you either a) believe it isn't, or b) take a stance neither way. Given b is agnosticism, what is a?

Or you can c) not believe it, which is atheism. B isn't agnosticism.

You're being circular here. If you do not believe something is, you either believe it isn't, or you neither believe nor disbelieve. There are only three states here. It's not hard. Belief in God - theism. Nonbelief in God - atheism. No belief in either direction - agnosticism.

[Sociobiology]

or are ignostic and think it is too poorly defined to make an assessment of probability.

Or you just don't give a shit.

it depends on why you don't give a shit.

[Mavorpen]

"I believe there is no god".

Which isn't atheism.

[Bone Fort]

"Number" has two meanings. The first is that it's a mathematical object used to label the amount of something. The other is that it IS that amount. The dictionary is using number in the latter sense of the word.

Is a lack of numbers still a number? Is a lack of amount still an amount? Are we going to argue idiotic semantics all night while straying farther away from the main topic? Perhaps.

I think the one thing we might all be able to agree on is that no straight answer will come out of this thread. I think the best way to get even close to finding an answer would be to define respect.

For instance, to me, respect would be simply not being an asshole and antagonizing religious people that were minding their own business and otherwise weren't doing anything to deserve such mean behavior.

[Eoghania]

"I believe there is no god".

Which isn't atheism.

So what is it to believe that there is no god?

Additionally, we do seem to be straying from the topic here.

[Mavorpen]

Which isn't atheism.

So what is it to believe that there is no god?

Additionally, we do seem to be straying from the topic here.

Dude... it was literally in the post you quoted.

[Sociobiology]

which means a binary definition is flawed.
again why I like the dawkins' scale.
on which I am a 6.9 by the way.

(Image)

It's a good scale, although I generally run with a simpler approach. Those who are 100% in either direction are fools refusing to accept reality (unless they have definitive proof and haven't shown the rest of us). Otherwise, you have "I believe there is a god", "I believe there is no god", and "I take a stance neither way". Theism, atheism, and agnosticism, respectively.

except that doesn't work when you get people like me 6.9 or empirical atheists.

no definition of gods I have yet been presented with, that is falsifiable, is consistent with what known. So I must operate under the assumption they are inaccurate.
in addition the more falsifiable definitions are extremely incompatible with what is known, so they require extraordinary evidence.

Also a polytheist technically fits your definition of an atheist.

I should point out that different people put different labels on 3 and 5, often they are labeled as agnostic with leanings.

[Mavorpen]

You mean...it's....atheism? Like I've been saying this entire time? Gosh.

No. You've been saying that atheism is defined as "believe no God exists." In other words, you've stated that it is the true and main definition of atheism. It isn't.

[Sociobiology]

Which isn't atheism.

So what is it to believe that there is no god?

depends on how strong your belief is.

[Eoghania]

You mean...it's....atheism? Like I've been saying this entire time? Gosh.

No. You've been saying that atheism is defined as "believe no God exists." In other words, you've stated that it is the true and main definition of atheism. It isn't.

I asked you what it is to believe that there is no god. You pointed at the chart. Says atheism there.

It's a good scale, although I generally run with a simpler approach. Those who are 100% in either direction are fools refusing to accept reality (unless they have definitive proof and haven't shown the rest of us). Otherwise, you have "I believe there is a god", "I believe there is no god", and "I take a stance neither way". Theism, atheism, and agnosticism, respectively.

except that doesn't work when you get people like me 6.9 or empirical atheists.

no definition of gods I have yet been presented with, that is falsifiable, is consistent with what known. So I must operate under the assumption they are inaccurate.
in addition the more falsifiable definitions are extremely incompatible with what is known, so they require extraordinary evidence.

Also a polytheist technically fits your definition of an atheist.

I've only used "I believe there is a god" this time, since typing "belief in a number of gods greater than or equal to one" over and over gets a little tiring, and it's past 1:30am. I would consider you an atheist - you believe there is no god. However, you are not an idiot, as if evidence were presented you would consider it and, should it be appropriate, change your beliefs accordingly.

[Mavorpen]

I asked you what it is to believe that there is no god. You pointed at the chart. Says atheism there.

No shit. But that's not what you were arguing.

[Eoghania]

I asked you what it is to believe that there is no god. You pointed at the chart. Says atheism there.

No shit. But that's not what you were arguing.

Yes it is. Atheism is to believe there is no god. That is what I have said the entire time. On the chart, believing there is no god = atheism. Good grief.

[Mavorpen]

No shit. But that's not what you were arguing.

Yes it is. Atheism is to believe there is no god. That is what I have said the entire time. On the chart, believing there is no god = atheism. Good grief.

No, it isn't. Atheism is lack of belief in a god/gods. THAT is the definition of atheism that encompasses all atheists. HOWEVER, there can be an atheist that believes there is no god/gods because that means that he still has lack of belief in them. You were arguing something different from saying, "an atheist can believe that there is no god/gods."

[Sociobiology]

No. You've been saying that atheism is defined as "believe no God exists." In other words, you've stated that it is the true and main definition of atheism. It isn't.

I asked you what it is to believe that there is no god. You pointed at the chart. Says atheism there.

actually it says defacto atheism.
and I should point out the labels are not agreed upon, 3 and 5 or often considered agnosticism.

except that doesn't work when you get people like me 6.9 or empirical atheists.

no definition of gods I have yet been presented with, that is falsifiable, is consistent with what known. So I must operate under the assumption they are inaccurate.
in addition the more falsifiable definitions are extremely incompatible with what is known, so they require extraordinary evidence.

Also a polytheist technically fits your definition of an atheist.

I've only used "I believe there is a god" this time, since typing "belief in a number of gods greater than or equal to one" over and over gets a little tiring, and it's past 1:30am. I would consider you an atheist - you believe there is no god. However, you are not an idiot, as if evidence were presented you would consider it and, should it be appropriate, change your beliefs accordingly.=

It may just be I'm not a fan of pigeon holing.

but almost every person on earth is overwhelmingly atheist, I know of no one that believes in even a significant portion of proposed gods.

[Eoghania]

Yes it is. Atheism is to believe there is no god. That is what I have said the entire time. On the chart, believing there is no god = atheism. Good grief.

No, it isn't. Atheism is lack of belief in a god/gods. THAT is the definition of atheism that encompasses all atheists. HOWEVER, there can be an atheist that believes there is no god/gods because that means that he still has lack of belief in them. You were arguing something different from saying, "an atheist can believe that there is no god/gods."

Look at the middle of the sodding chart. Pure Agnosticism - stance neither way. *Every* stance on the atheism side is that THERE IS NO GOD.

[Bone Fort]

No, it isn't. Atheism is lack of belief in a god/gods. THAT is the definition of atheism that encompasses all atheists. HOWEVER, there can be an atheist that believes there is no god/gods because that means that he still has lack of belief in them. You were arguing something different from saying, "an atheist can believe that there is no god/gods."

So zero isn't a number?

[Mavorpen]

No, it isn't. Atheism is lack of belief in a god/gods. THAT is the definition of atheism that encompasses all atheists. HOWEVER, there can be an atheist that believes there is no god/gods because that means that he still has lack of belief in them. You were arguing something different from saying, "an atheist can believe that there is no god/gods."

Look at the middle of the sodding chart. Pure Agnosticism - stance neither way. *Every* stance on the atheism side is that THERE IS NO GOD.

And you're wrong, AGAIN.

[Myrensis]

I've only used "I believe there is a god" this time, since typing "belief in a number of gods greater than or equal to one" over and over gets a little tiring, and it's past 1:30am. I would consider you an atheist - you believe there is no god. However, you are not an idiot, as if evidence were presented you would consider it and, should it be appropriate, change your beliefs accordingly.

I'm reasonably sure that applies to 99% of all Atheists, regardless of how strong or weak their position.

The problem seems to be that people start from the assumption that there is something 'special' about God. There isn't. I don't feel any more uncomfortable firmly dismissing the existence of God than I do dismissing Leprechauns, Unicorns or the Tooth Fairy. If a tiny man in a green suit pops into existence in front of me and dumps a pot of gold at my feet, and other people can see and hear him and the gold, I'd probably rapidly reconsider, but in the meantime there is no reason to consider it as at all plausible or realistic. The same applies to God.

[Eoghania]

Look at the middle of the sodding chart. Pure Agnosticism - stance neither way. *Every* stance on the atheism side is that THERE IS NO GOD.

And you're wrong, AGAIN.

You referenced a chart, I used the items on the chart. See these goalposts? Stop moving them.