LGBT Christians, yeah we exist.

[Menassa]

I don't recognize the Pope's authority. And I've never even heard of the King John version.

WELL LOOK IT UP!! It is even classified at a fifth grade reading level and Menessa I see what you did there because Transgender is a new thing but I think Pope Benedict at least tried to stop it... Doing that is kind of dumb for a christian to do anyways

I really need to ask some of my colleagues who have read up on the subject what the Halachic position of a transgenderd person is.

[Grenartia]

I don't recognize the Pope's authority. And I've never even heard of the King John version.

WELL LOOK IT UP!! It is even classified at a fifth grade reading level and Menessa I see what you did there because Transgender is a new thing but I think Pope Benedict at least tried to stop it... Doing that is kind of dumb for a christian to do anyways

Wiki didn't reveal anything. Please link me to it.

Doing what is dumb for a Christian?

WELL LOOK IT UP!! It is even classified at a fifth grade reading level and Menessa I see what you did there because Transgender is a new thing but I think Pope Benedict at least tried to stop it... Doing that is kind of dumb for a christian to do anyways

I really need to ask some of my colleagues who have read up on the subject what the Halachic position of a transgenderd person is.

Technically, if one holds Genesis to be true, then Eve is a MtF transsexual.

[Menassa]

That was sort of the answer I was looking for but you think the Masoretic Text has been edited?

That's the Old Testament, right? Then yes. Probably moreso than any of the New Testament, by virtue of the fact that its older. There's a few scattered bits in there that are probably true (more or less historical facts, mainly), but I personally wouldn't totally trust it for theology.

I don't believe that's true.

At least the original Hebrew has remained completely the same... or near completely...

Problems arise when you start to translate it into other languages.

[Menassa]

WELL LOOK IT UP!! It is even classified at a fifth grade reading level and Menessa I see what you did there because Transgender is a new thing but I think Pope Benedict at least tried to stop it... Doing that is kind of dumb for a christian to do anyways

Wiki didn't reveal anything. Please link me to it.

Doing what is dumb for a Christian?

I really need to ask some of my colleagues who have read up on the subject what the Halachic position of a transgenderd person is.

Technically, if one holds Genesis to be true, then Eve is a MtF transsexual.

The Talmud goes on a lengthy discussion about the creation of Chava.... the two sides are either that Adam had a tail like limb and Chava was created from that. Or Adam and Chava were one being and God separated them

[Tmutarakhan]

I don't recognize the Pope's authority. And I've never even heard of the King John version.



I only really consider myself to be bound by the red text in the Gospels of the New Testament. It seems to me that they've been edited the least.

That was sort of the answer I was looking for but you think the Masoretic Text has been edited?

He was talking about the NEW Testament. He was expressing no opinion about the Old (which I do not believe he considers binding on Christians at all). In New Testaments, often the words attributed to Jesus himself are printed in red. The words attributed to Jesus in Mark, Matthew, and Luke do seem to be well-preserved material; however, nothing that is attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John should be trusted.

[Menassa]

That was sort of the answer I was looking for but you think the Masoretic Text has been edited?

He was talking about the NEW Testament. He was expressing no opinion about the Old (which I do not believe he considers binding on Christians at all). In New Testaments, often the words attributed to Jesus himself are printed in red. The words attributed to Jesus in Mark, Matthew, and Luke do seem to be well-preserved material; however, nothing that is attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John should be trusted.

But then he clearly said the Old Testament was edited because it was older.

And I am perfectly aware of how edited the New Testament is.... and I also do not believe the Old Testament is binding to Christians.

[Grenartia]

That was sort of the answer I was looking for but you think the Masoretic Text has been edited?

He was talking about the NEW Testament. He was expressing no opinion about the Old (which I do not believe he considers binding on Christians at all). In New Testaments, often the words attributed to Jesus himself are printed in red. The words attributed to Jesus in Mark, Matthew, and Luke do seem to be well-preserved material; however, nothing that is attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John should be trusted.

Can I see a source to back that up? I believe you, but I just want to read for myself. Also I'm wondering about Acts.

[Tmutarakhan]

He was talking about the NEW Testament. He was expressing no opinion about the Old (which I do not believe he considers binding on Christians at all). In New Testaments, often the words attributed to Jesus himself are printed in red. The words attributed to Jesus in Mark, Matthew, and Luke do seem to be well-preserved material; however, nothing that is attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John should be trusted.

But then he clearly said the Old Testament was edited because it was older.

Missed that. Well yes, obviously the Old Testament went through massive evolutions before reaching its final text. The Torah I believe received its essentially final form when Ezra read his text aloud to the people (only a handful of accidental glitches seem to separate the Masoretic text from the texts in circulation in Dead Sea Scrolls time), although the other books still were subject to some touch-ups for a while later (Joshua was edited sometime in the 1st century AD to change what was said about the foundation of the shrine at Gilgal, since the Samaritans revered Gilgal; the Dead Sea Scroll version has the older version, as still reflected in Josephus' account of the sequence of events).

[Menassa]

But then he clearly said the Old Testament was edited because it was older.

Missed that. Well yes, obviously the Old Testament went through massive evolutions before reaching its final text. The Torah I believe received its essentially final form when Ezra read his text aloud to the people (only a handful of accidental glitches seem to separate the Masoretic text from the texts in circulation in Dead Sea Scrolls time), although the other books still were subject to some touch-ups for a while later (Joshua was edited sometime in the 1st century AD to change what was said about the foundation of the shrine at Gilgal, since the Samaritans revered Gilgal; the Dead Sea Scroll version has the older version, as still reflected in Josephus' account of the sequence of events).

Yes that is true... the Torah has endured longer than the New Testament... I hold that to perhaps the staunch position of persecution against the Jewish people... but that is neither her nor there.

EDIT: Ezra basically only changed the letters from some sort of pre-semetic curved writing to the block writing we see today.

[Tmutarakhan]

Missed that. Well yes, obviously the Old Testament went through massive evolutions before reaching its final text. The Torah I believe received its essentially final form when Ezra read his text aloud to the people (only a handful of accidental glitches seem to separate the Masoretic text from the texts in circulation in Dead Sea Scrolls time), although the other books still were subject to some touch-ups for a while later (Joshua was edited sometime in the 1st century AD to change what was said about the foundation of the shrine at Gilgal, since the Samaritans revered Gilgal; the Dead Sea Scroll version has the older version, as still reflected in Josephus' account of the sequence of events).

Yes that is true... the Torah has endured longer than the New Testament... I hold that to perhaps the staunch position of persecution against the Jewish people... but that is neither her nor there.

EDIT: Ezra basically only changed the letters from some sort of pre-semetic curved writing to the block writing we see today.

No, I believe that Ezra wrote essentially all of the "P" material and made some heavy edits to the other stuff. I know you have been raised in the "G-d dictated every word of it to Moses" view, which I have been calling the "stupid fundamentalist" view, not intending to insult you personally-- but truly, until you escape that medievalism you will never understand the book for what it is.

[Menassa]

Yes that is true... the Torah has endured longer than the New Testament... I hold that to perhaps the staunch position of persecution against the Jewish people... but that is neither her nor there.

EDIT: Ezra basically only changed the letters from some sort of pre-semetic curved writing to the block writing we see today.

No, I believe that Ezra wrote essentially all of the "P" material and made some heavy edits to the other stuff. I know you have been raised in the "G-d dictated every word of it to Moses" view, which I have been calling the "stupid fundamentalist" view, not intending to insult you personally-- but truly, until you escape that medievalism you will never understand the book for what it is.

I don't believe you are correct.

and again God wrote it and gave it to Moses silly.

Lastly it is you who do not understand the book for what it is, you who are so stuck in trying to not believe in a God you must cut and recreate the book that he wrote.

You can't simply deal with the fact that it's right so you must devise your own methods of understanding it (not you, but in general) Also for another place and time.

[Tmutarakhan]

The book is filled with primitive attitudes and ignorance of how the world works. If you understand it as a product of human striving, it is very impressive on those terms. But if you try to portray it as God-given, you simply blaspheme, portraying a God that is as stupid and cruel as Bronze Age humans were.

[Menassa]

The book is filled with primitive attitudes and ignorance of how the world works. If you understand it as a product of human striving, it is very impressive on those terms. But if you try to portray it as God-given, you simply blaspheme, portraying a God that is as stupid and cruel as Bronze Age humans were.

True... that is what you see when you look at the book as a literary peace of how monotheistic life was.

But as Jews we also have what is known as the Oral Law... Laws that were handed down from noses through oral tradition and then finally written down in around the 2nd century if I remember correctly.

[Tmutarakhan]

The book is filled with primitive attitudes and ignorance of how the world works. If you understand it as a product of human striving, it is very impressive on those terms. But if you try to portray it as God-given, you simply blaspheme, portraying a God that is as stupid and cruel as Bronze Age humans were.

True... that is what you see when you look at the book as a literary peace of how monotheistic life was.

But as Jews we also have what is known as the Oral Law... Laws that were handed down from noses through oral tradition and then finally written down in around the 2nd century if I remember correctly.

"Handed down from noses"? The notion that the oral law was "handed down from Moses" was a particularly late invention.

[Menassa]

True... that is what you see when you look at the book as a literary peace of how monotheistic life was.

But as Jews we also have what is known as the Oral Law... Laws that were handed down from noses through oral tradition and then finally written down in around the 2nd century if I remember correctly.

"Handed down from noses"? The notion that the oral law was "handed down from Moses" was a particularly late invention.

Not really That Talmud is written proof of the Oral Law (which is a bit odd to say ) but anyway it's the Oral Law that was handed from Moses to Joshua, then the elders then the men of the great assembly then the Tannaim, the Amoraim, the Gonim, Rishonaim, Achronim, and Rabbis we have today.

If by particularly late you mean early 4th century then you are wrong.

[Tekania]

Well... like Scholencia said earlier The Pope is supposed to be diplomat for all christianity and that is written in King John version bible... The best one ever!

King John bible? That is sad, really quite sad. You should really know what you're talking about BEFORE speaking.

[Tekania]

I don't recognize the Pope's authority. And I've never even heard of the King John version.

WELL LOOK IT UP!! It is even classified at a fifth grade reading level and Menessa I see what you did there because Transgender is a new thing but I think Pope Benedict at least tried to stop it... Doing that is kind of dumb for a christian to do anyways

I doubt anyone is interested in looking up anything you're talking about. They know what you mean already, which means they already know you are making errors because they in fact know more than you. I'll give you a first hint.... There is no King John version of the bible. And the one you're referring to (which I'll let you figure out your error on your own as to what its name is) is not a 5th grade level reading.... that is a message passed on my groups which push a KJV-only agenda.... actual reading educators (that is people whose job it is to teach people to read) class it usually between 8th and 12th.

[Tmutarakhan]

"Handed down from noses"? The notion that the oral law was "handed down from Moses" was a particularly late invention.

Not really That Talmud is written proof of the Oral Law (which is a bit odd to say ) but anyway it's the Oral Law that was handed from Moses to Joshua, then the elders then the men of the great assembly then the Tannaim, the Amoraim, the Gonim, Rishonaim, Achronim, and Rabbis we have today.

If by particularly late you mean early 4th century then you are wrong.

In the bolded section you see where Pirqei Avoth does not even pretend to have a list of names, but just asserts out of the blue that there must have been people who passed it on and passed it on until the 2nd century BCE when we first start to get a chain of names that is the actual beginning of the Pharisaic school and the "Oral Law" concept. Absolutely none of the writings from any of the prophets or other authors prior to the 2nd century BCE give any evidence for the existence of any such concept.

[Menassa]

Not really That Talmud is written proof of the Oral Law (which is a bit odd to say ) but anyway it's the Oral Law that was handed from Moses to Joshua, then the elders then the men of the great assembly then the Tannaim, the Amoraim, the Gonim, Rishonaim, Achronim, and Rabbis we have today.

If by particularly late you mean early 4th century then you are wrong.

In the bolded section you see where Pirqei Avoth does not even pretend to have a list of names, but just asserts out of the blue that there must have been people who passed it on and passed it on until the 2nd century BCE when we first start to get a chain of names that is the actual beginning of the Pharisaic school and the "Oral Law" concept. Absolutely none of the writings from any of the prophets or other authors prior to the 2nd century BCE give any evidence for the existence of any such concept.

You have a problem with the missing link?

I'll solve that for you right now.... the Anshei Keneses HaGadolah Men of the Great Assembly and the Elders were the people who came in between Ezra and the Zugos (I forget who started the Zugos but Hillel and Shammai were some of them). But again that has nothing to do with LGBT Christians.

[Tmutarakhan]

In the bolded section you see where Pirqei Avoth does not even pretend to have a list of names, but just asserts out of the blue that there must have been people who passed it on and passed it on until the 2nd century BCE when we first start to get a chain of names that is the actual beginning of the Pharisaic school and the "Oral Law" concept. Absolutely none of the writings from any of the prophets or other authors prior to the 2nd century BCE give any evidence for the existence of any such concept.

You have a problem with the missing link?

I'll solve that for you right now.... the Anshei Keneses HaGadolah Men of the Great Assembly and the Elders were the people who came in between Ezra and the Zugos (I forget who started the Zugos but Hillel and Shammai were some of them). But again that has nothing to do with LGBT Christians.

If there actually was a chain of transmission, they would have the names. When the real chain of transmission starts, they do have the names. They just put in this catch-all phrase because there "must have been" people in between, although they don't know specifically who any of them were? Yeah, right. This is a very transparent con, and I am sorry you can't bring yourself to face it.

[Menassa]

You have a problem with the missing link?

I'll solve that for you right now.... the Anshei Keneses HaGadolah Men of the Great Assembly and the Elders were the people who came in between Ezra and the Zugos (I forget who started the Zugos but Hillel and Shammai were some of them). But again that has nothing to do with LGBT Christians.

If there actually was a chain of transmission, they would have the names. When the real chain of transmission starts, they do have the names. They just put in this catch-all phrase because there "must have been" people in between, although they don't know specifically who any of them were? Yeah, right. This is a very transparent con, and I am sorry you can't bring yourself to face it.

Again... when faced with ultimate truth and the answer to the question you have to distort it.

Why would every single person who was part of the transmition be named?

Specific people are named like Moses and Joshua and all the prophets... but when there is an established group of people like the Elders and the Great Assembly and the Tannaim and Achronim we know that they kept the transmission because we respect that. That's one thing we have if anything, respect because every generation before you was a generation closer to Sinai.

The Mesorah, the tradition that extends from the word of God to Moses and to the occurring chain.

And what did you expect fits those 'broad names' thousands of people who just walked around with their heads in the clouds who got names slapped on them?

[Tmutarakhan]

If there actually was a chain of transmission, they would have the names. When the real chain of transmission starts, they do have the names. They just put in this catch-all phrase because there "must have been" people in between, although they don't know specifically who any of them were? Yeah, right. This is a very transparent con, and I am sorry you can't bring yourself to face it.

Again... when faced with ultimate truth and the answer to the question you have to distort it.

The ultimate truth is that the Tanakh is a survival from an ignorant and brutal time and is filled with the stupidities and cruelties of that time. Studying the failures of the past in order to learn from them is one thing; insisting that you must replicate the worst stupidities and cruelties of the past forever is something much different. I despise fundamentalist Judaism with every fiber of my being, as I do fundamentalist Christianity and fundamentalist Islam (and would condemn fundamentalist Buddhists but they are not as thick on the ground): it is all the same blasphemous evil.

Why would every single person who was part of the transmition be named?

When there are genuine chains of transmission, YES, every name is preserved. Here are the holders of the Buddha's robe, down to the founder of Zen (any Zen teacher will be able to tell you his teacher, and his teacher's teacher, and so on all the way back to this lineage):
[11][10] SANSKRT CHINESE VIET JAPANESE KOREAN
Śākyamuni Buddha
1 Mahākāśyapa 摩訶迦葉 / Móhējiāyè Mahacadiep Makakashyo 마하가섭
2 Ānanda 阿難陀 / Ānántuó Ananđa Anan 아난다
3 Śāṇavāsa 商那和修 / Shāngnàhéxiū Thuongnahoathu Shonawashu
4 Upagupta 優婆掬多 / Yōupójúduō Uubacucđa Ubakikuta
5 Dhṛṭaka 提多迦 / Dīduōjiā Ðeđaca Daitaka
6 Miccaka 彌遮迦 / Mízhējiā Digiaca Mishaka
7 Vasumitra 婆須密 / Póxūmì Batumat Bashumitsu
8 Buddhānandi 浮陀難提 / Fútuónándī Phatđananđe Buddanandai
9 Buddhamitra 浮陀密多 / Fútuómìduō Phatđamatđa Buddamitta
10 Pārśva 婆栗濕婆 / Pólìshīpó Hieptongia Barishiba
11 Puṇyayaśas 富那夜奢 / Fùnàyèshē Phunadasa Funayasha
12 Ānabodhi / Aśvaghoṣa 阿那菩提 / Ānàpútí Maminh Anabotei
13 Kapimala 迦毘摩羅 / Jiāpímóluó Catymala Kabimara
14 Nāgārjuna 龍樹 / Lóngshù Longtho Ryusho 용수
15 Kāṇadeva 迦那提婆 / Jiānàtípó Canađeba Kanadaiba 아리야데바
16 Rāhulata 羅睺羅多 / Luóhóuluóduō Lahaulađa Ragorata
17 Saṅghānandi 僧伽難提 / Sēngqiénántí Tanggiananđe Sōgyanandai
18 Saṅghayaśas 僧伽舍多 / Sēngqiéshèduō Giadaxađa Sogyayasha
19 Kumārata 鳩摩羅多 / Jiūmóluóduō Cuumalađa Kumarada
20 Śayata 闍夜多 / Shéyèduō Xadađa Jayana
21 Vasubandhu 世親 / Shìqīn Batubanđau Bashyubanzu 바수반두 / 세친
22 Manorhita 摩拏羅 / Mónáluó Manoala Manura
23 Haklenayaśas 鶴勒夜那夜者 / Hèlèyènàyèzhě Haclacna Kakurokuyasha
24 Siṃhabodhi 師子菩提 / Shīzǐpútí Satubođe Shishibodai
25 Vasi-Asita 婆舍斯多 / Póshèsīduō Baxatuđa Bashashita
26 Puṇyamitra 不如密多 / Bùrúmìduō Batnhumatđa Funamitta
27 Prajñātāra 般若多羅 / Bānruòduōluó Batnhađala Hannyatara
28 धर्म / Dharma 達磨 / Dámó Đatma だるま / Daruma 달마 / Dalma

The Pharisaic sect had a genuine chain of transmission starting from its foundation, and does list, exactly, who got the teachings from whom, the way that genuine chains of transmission do. The later claim that this chain extends back to Moses is transparently fake: if there existed such a chain, it would be profound disrespect to forget the teachers.

[The Alexanderians]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... and_Europe the Church of Sweden wonders where did you get that idea?

They are all the same to me because they believe in one God, Jesus is the son of God and part of the Trinity, died on the cross etc.

But, if they are practising mass during sundays or not, or what do they think about abortion is not so important since they all believe in this one important "truth". Get it?

EDIT. gnostics are not christians.

Most religions believe in an afterlife. Does believing this "truth" make all of those religions the same thing?

[Sauritican]

It's certainly great that some of the LGBT community is Christian

[Scholencia]

Most religions believe in an afterlife. Does believing this "truth" make all of those religions the same thing?

No, since all religion dont believe that afterlife will happen nort that it happens in the same way.