LGBT Christians, yeah we exist.

[Menassa]

1. Because it's blatantly obvious.
2. Nothing.... nothing at all.

Again, how is it obvious? It's only even arguably obvious if you presuppose that the bible/Tanakh is a unified work.

Which I do... I would believe that whatever prophet wrote the books of Samuel believed in the Law as stated in the Chameshei Chomshai Torah the five books of Moses.

[Meryuma]

Again, how is it obvious? It's only even arguably obvious if you presuppose that the bible/Tanakh is a unified work.

Which I do... I would believe that whatever prophet wrote the books of Samuel believed in the Law as stated in the Chameshei Chomshai Torah the five books of Moses.

The books were written and compiled over hundreds of years or more by people of different backgrounds in different areas who probably vastly differing outlooks on life and interpretations of what God wants. Look at how different America is now from how it was in the 50s, and how many different bible interpretations there are now - let alone how much things could differ throughout the entire history of an ancient society, from tribalism to a centralized empire to captivity. The book of Genesis alone is believed to have origins going back to 3 different writers.

[Menassa]

Which I do... I would believe that whatever prophet wrote the books of Samuel believed in the Law as stated in the Chameshei Chomshai Torah the five books of Moses.

The books were written and compiled over hundreds of years or more by people of different backgrounds in different areas who probably vastly differing outlooks on life and interpretations of what God wants. Look at how different America is now from how it was in the 50s, and how many different bible interpretations there are now - let alone how much things could differ throughout the entire history of an ancient society, from tribalism to a centralized empire to captivity. The book of Genesis alone is believed to have origins going back to 3 different writers.

Again.... we can go to my inbox or room to discuss the validity of the Bible... and it's single authorization.

[Tmutarakhan]

Again, how is it obvious? It's only even arguably obvious if you presuppose that the bible/Tanakh is a unified work.

Which I do... I would believe that whatever prophet wrote the books of Samuel believed in the Law as stated in the Chameshei Chomshai Torah the five books of Moses.

There is not the slightest reason to believe that either of the chroniclers who wrote the sources drawn upon in Samuel, or the editor who put it into its present form, was a "prophet" of any kind. And of course the "five books" did not exist in their present form at that time either. But even if the "holiness code" that got incorporated into Leviticus did exist at that time, the author's non-judgmental view simply indicates that he does not share the same viewpoint as the lawyer who wrote the holiness code.

Rather than focusing on "contradictions" (although of course there are many, and it is silly to pretend otherwise), what you really need education on is in the differences in attitude among the various authors. Jeremiah, for example, is contemptuous of the very concept of having "the law" written down in books. The Pharisaic attitude passed down to Orthodoxy that the books are all perfect emanations of God is the worst obstacle to understanding what is actually in them.

[Menassa]

Which I do... I would believe that whatever prophet wrote the books of Samuel believed in the Law as stated in the Chameshei Chomshai Torah the five books of Moses.

There is not the slightest reason to believe that either of the chroniclers who wrote the sources drawn upon in Samuel, or the editor who put it into its present form, was a "prophet" of any kind. And of course the "five books" did not exist in their present form at that time either. But even if the "holiness code" that got incorporated into Leviticus did exist at that time, the author's non-judgmental view simply indicates that he does not share the same viewpoint as the lawyer who wrote the holiness code.

Rather than focusing on "contradictions" (although of course there are many, and it is silly to pretend otherwise), what you really need education on is in the differences in attitude among the various authors. Jeremiah, for example, is contemptuous of the very concept of having "the law" written down in books. The Pharisaic attitude passed down to Orthodoxy that the books are all perfect emanations of God is the worst obstacle to understanding what is actually in them.

All hail you! The man who wants to take religion out of the Bible.

[Tmutarakhan]

There is not the slightest reason to believe that either of the chroniclers who wrote the sources drawn upon in Samuel, or the editor who put it into its present form, was a "prophet" of any kind. And of course the "five books" did not exist in their present form at that time either. But even if the "holiness code" that got incorporated into Leviticus did exist at that time, the author's non-judgmental view simply indicates that he does not share the same viewpoint as the lawyer who wrote the holiness code.

Rather than focusing on "contradictions" (although of course there are many, and it is silly to pretend otherwise), what you really need education on is in the differences in attitude among the various authors. Jeremiah, for example, is contemptuous of the very concept of having "the law" written down in books. The Pharisaic attitude passed down to Orthodoxy that the books are all perfect emanations of God is the worst obstacle to understanding what is actually in them.

All hail you! The man who wants to take religion out of the Bible.

No, discover what the actual religion was. Stupid fundamentalism is not actually true to what is in the books.

[Menassa]

All hail you! The man who wants to take religion out of the Bible.

No, discover what the actual religion was. Stupid fundamentalism is not actually true to what is in the books.

That's a pretty blanket statement.... I mean did God not command genocide?

What about all the other things I've heard many a time.... rape victim marrying the rapist.... Elisha in Beh-El.... all that jazz.... but we really should be getting back on topic.

[Tmutarakhan]

No, discover what the actual religion was. Stupid fundamentalism is not actually true to what is in the books.

That's a pretty blanket statement.... I mean did God not command genocide?

Depends on which book you read. Judges gives a much more nuanced account of the conquest than the simple-minded version in Joshua.

What about all the other things I've heard many a time.... rape victim marrying the rapist

That was one author's opinion of how it should be handled, yes.

[Menassa]

That's a pretty blanket statement.... I mean did God not command genocide?

Depends on which book you read. Judges gives a much more nuanced account of the conquest than the simple-minded version in Joshua.

What about all the other things I've heard many a time.... rape victim marrying the rapist

That was one author's opinion of how it should be handled, yes.

Now you're looking for the bible's 'congruence line' which again is for another place.

[Tmutarakhan]

Depends on which book you read. Judges gives a much more nuanced account of the conquest than the simple-minded version in Joshua.

That was one author's opinion of how it should be handled, yes.

Now you're looking for the bible's 'congruence line' which again is for another place.

No, I think this is precisely the place. The Tanakh is a heterogeneous collection of literature, recording early mankind's strivings with the big questions; it is an extraordinary document, since we have nothing like it of the same anciency from any other nation. Its value consists precisely in the length of time over which it evolved, and the variety of approaches which were tried and failed during that period. The simple-minded fundamentalist view of it not only opens it up to angry-atheist attacks for its crudities and cruelties, but also erases the very source of the book's value.

[Petrovsegratsk]

God makes people gay.

Another person who I'd like to ask to elaborate.[/quote]

God doesn't make people Gay, no one is born Gay, there are no Gay genes.

It's just a bunch of Western Hippie non-sense.

A lot of people don't even have any sort of sexual orientation until they hit puberty.

The whole "You're born Gay" thing is just stupid, it's a choice, if God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own sexual orientation?

People everyday switch between being Heterosexuals and Homosexuals, my girlfriend had a friend who used to be a Lesbian, but then she just went Straight one day, explain 'Gay genes' to her, she'll laugh in your face.

[Farnhamia]

Another person who I'd like to ask to elaborate.

God doesn't make people Gay, no one is born Gay, there are no Gay genes.

It's just a bunch of Western Hippie non-sense.

A lot of people don't even have any sort of sexual orientation until they hit puberty.

The whole "You're born Gay" thing is just stupid, it's a choice, if God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own sexual orientation?

People everyday switch between being Heterosexuals and Homosexuals, my girlfriend had a friend who used to be a Lesbian, but then she just went Straight one day, explain 'Gay genes' to her, she'll laugh in your face.[/quote]
Oh, well, your girlfriend's friend. That convinces me.

[Tekania]

if God gave us freedom to control our own will

Who said God gave us the freedom to control our own will? Sure you have a will, and with it you make decisions; but you make said decisions in accordance with your own nature.

[Stovokor]

if God gave us freedom to control our own will

Who said God gave us the freedom to control our own will?

As an atheist, I can tell you that, that is actually in the bible, and mentioned several times.

This of course leads to theologic debate over, predetermination theory, and Test theory, but that's for theologians to debate.

[Genivaria]

Another person who I'd like to ask to elaborate.

God doesn't make people Gay, no one is born Gay, there are no Gay genes.

It's just a bunch of Western Hippie non-sense.

A lot of people don't even have any sort of sexual orientation until they hit puberty.

The whole "You're born Gay" thing is just stupid, it's a choice, if God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own sexual orientation?

People everyday switch between being Heterosexuals and Homosexuals, my girlfriend had a friend who used to be a Lesbian, but then she just went Straight one day, explain 'Gay genes' to her, she'll laugh in your face.[/quote]
Worthless anecdotal evidence is worthless.

[Tsuntion]

God doesn't make people Gay, no one is born Gay, there are no Gay genes.

It's just a bunch of Western Hippie non-sense.

A lot of people don't even have any sort of sexual orientation until they hit puberty.

I'd be interested in seeing a source for that, because the second and third quotes here (I'm not linking to the reference in that article as it's a PDF file) indicate otherwise, both with regards to your claim of no genetic factors and that of children having no orientation. Many people are not sexually aware until puberty and thus do not think about their sexuality. This doesn't mean they don't have one; the quotes say that it is established before birth or in early childhood, both of which are stages before puberty.

The whole "You're born Gay" thing is just stupid, it's a choice, if God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own sexual orientation?

If God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own race? If God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own number of arms? If God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own parents?

People everyday switch between being Heterosexuals and Homosexuals, my girlfriend had a friend who used to be a Lesbian, but then she just went Straight one day, explain 'Gay genes' to her, she'll laugh in your face.

As Genivaria said, this is an anecdote and invalid. Further, sexual orientation can change with time (mentioned slightly further down the Wikipedia page I linked), and not all sexualities are exclusive to one gender. Note that fluidity of orientation is not incompatible with genetic factors.

[Tmutarakhan]

Females are believed to have more changeable sexual orientation, and to be more likely to be bisexual, than males. Research on this is not solid, but it certainly agrees with my experience.

[Distruzio]

A person shouldn't define their life by their individual sexual orientation. Period.

For that matter, neither should a Christian organization.

The congregation defining a GSM according to their preference is as much a sinner as the GSM themself. We are defined by Christ. Not by what we do with our genitalia.

[Felbah]

I certainly believe that if God wanted us to be homosexual, then he would have given us organs so that we could reproduce with our own gender. But, it's your choice, and I'll respect that...
Not saying I'll be happy about it though.

[Farnhamia]

Females are believed to have more changeable sexual orientation, and to be more likely to be bisexual, than males. Research on this is not solid, but it certainly agrees with my experience.

Still using the "I'm sorry, I'm a lesbian" line, are they?

[Bleckonia]

I don't think it's okay for anybody to be a part of Christianity.

Please save us ignorant fools then oh true saviour of humanity.

As for the op, I don't mind LGBT clergy at all, all are welcome in the Church, I do not, however, think the Church should be blessing same sex unions or allowing them to wed in Church - but that's just me.

But transgender people are "made" that way. You're born L, G, B, and T. It's a genetic thing.

[Felbah]

God doesn't make people Gay, no one is born Gay, there are no Gay genes.

It's just a bunch of Western Hippie non-sense.

A lot of people don't even have any sort of sexual orientation until they hit puberty.

I'd be interested in seeing a source for that, because the second and third quotes here (I'm not linking to the reference in that article as it's a PDF file) indicate otherwise, both with regards to your claim of no genetic factors and that of children having no orientation. Many people are not sexually aware until puberty and thus do not think about their sexuality. This doesn't mean they don't have one; the quotes say that it is established before birth or in early childhood, both of which are stages before puberty.

How does this 'gay gene' get inherited? Surely, genes can only be passed on through reproduction.

The whole "You're born Gay" thing is just stupid, it's a choice, if God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own sexual orientation?

If God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own race? If God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own number of arms? If God gave us freedom to control our own will, why wouldn't he allow us to choose our own parents?

Race isn't will, number of arms isn't will, parents aren't will. These things are circumstantial, which God will not let us choose, as circumstances help to define who we will be in life! If we could all choose, then we'd probably find everyone to be really similar, and the world would stop. But sexual orientation is will. It takes willpower and backbone to choose not to be homosexual. There is a gay tendency in all of us, but we have to work past that. The only reason we do have that tendency is because we like to be with people of our own genders - it's how God made us! But marriage and sexual intercourse are two things which God saved for a man and a woman to enjoy - union in God's eyes.

[Bleckonia]

How does this 'gay gene' get inherited? Surely, genes can only be passed on through reproduction.

In case you didn't know, a lot of gay people have kids.

I have a lesbian friend. Her dad is gay. He had her. Sure, there's a possibility it's a coincidence, but the scientific evidence shows that homosexuality is genetic. To say otherwise is to ignore years of reliable research, evidence, and testing.

[Tmutarakhan]

Race isn't will, number of arms isn't will, parents aren't will. These things are circumstantial, which God will not let us choose, as circumstances help to define who we will be in life! If we could all choose, then we'd probably find everyone to be really similar, and the world would stop. But sexual orientation is will.

I'm sorry, that's just silly. I find men attractive. I do not find women attractive. There is nothing I can do about that.

[Srboslavija]

Just wanted to drop by and wish a very merry and equal christmas to all the LGBT Christians out there.