LGBT Christians, yeah we exist.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

There's already no universally accepted idea of who is and is not a Christian even in more mainstream understandings: Mormons, UUs...a number of Protestants claim that Roman Catholics aren't, even.

Yes, most of those who disagree over those issues would agree that being a theist is at least a oceassary though not sufficient precondition, but so what? Again, signifiers are only related to their signified in popular discourse through the exercise of power. If I do not accept the power hierarchy that declares atheists to be outside Christianity, I'm doing nothing qualitatively different than those who reject the power hierarchy that declares universalism, or the plates of Nephi, or the veneration of saints, or homosexual activity to be outside Christianity,

[Zermet]

Even though I´m not christian I wouldn´t accept LGBT members in the church, because if they thought for the last 2000 years that it is wrong there is no reason on changing their views. Otherwise they would be a bunch of hypocraths.

[Ecans]

Of course it's acceptable for gay clergy and gay marriage to participate. After all, despite all the perversions of Christianity that have existed and are with us today, it is a religion of love and universal acceptance at the core. Yes, yes...there are thousands of examples of so-called Christians past and present who twist, bend, mutilate and pervert the message of love and I hope God forgives them.

[Madredia]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NLT)

I'm not saying anything specific about my views, I just want to know what someone who would say that they're LGBT and Christian would think of this Bible passage.

[Tekania]

There's already no universally accepted idea of who is and is not a Christian even in more mainstream understandings: Mormons, UUs...a number of Protestants claim that Roman Catholics aren't, even.

Yes, most of those who disagree over those issues would agree that being a theist is at least a oceassary though not sufficient precondition, but so what? Again, signifiers are only related to their signified in popular discourse through the exercise of power. If I do not accept the power hierarchy that declares atheists to be outside Christianity, I'm doing nothing qualitatively different than those who reject the power hierarchy that declares universalism, or the plates of Nephi, or the veneration of saints, or homosexual activity to be outside Christianity,

I've always adopted the Reformed concept of the Invisible Church, all believers in Christ anywhere no matter what physical church they attend.

[Tekania]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NLT)

I'm not saying anything specific about my views, I just want to know what someone who would say that they're LGBT and Christian would think of this Bible passage.

I should mention that there is contest over the translation of 'arsenokoitai' as "homosexual". There is more than enough contextual evidence to point it to being a condemnation of boy temple-prostitutes; a practice not at all uncommon to the audience the passage would have been directed at.

[Ecans]

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (NLT)

I'm not saying anything specific about my views, I just want to know what someone who would say that they're LGBT and Christian would think of this Bible passage.

I am curious...how does God deal with those who are BORN gay? That is, all of them. Don't bother telling me it's a choice. It's not. Those who condemn fall back on that old saw in order to cleanse their conciences.

Your Bible passages notwithstanding, a God of love would not create beings pre-doomed to hell. I for one lean not on the Bible but rather the message of peace and love.

[Madredia]

I do not condemn of course, since I was born a sinner just like everyone else. Jesus himself said "Let he who is without sin be the first to cast the stone." Thtas the message of love and peace. But he also said "Now go and sin no more" making it obvious he didn't approve of the sin. My belief is that God created man for paradise, and then Adam gave us that sinful nature. If homosexuals are really born as such, then they have to deal with what everyone has to deal with, being born with a sinful nature. Then (this is my opinion) they can overcome it same way that all other Christians make a choice to overcome their sinful nature. But like I said, I'm no more righteous than anyone else, so I will not condemn.

[Tekania]

I am curious...how does God deal with those who are BORN gay?

I'd imagine ones opinion on that would be colored as well by ones soteriological view.

[Madredia]

I am curious...how does God deal with those who are BORN gay?

I'd imagine ones opinion on that would be colored as well by ones soterological view.

Actually people often say "But what about those born homosexual" as if its some special incident, when really, according to Christian philosophy, we are all born sinners anyway because our human nature is sinful. So God would deal with those born gay (if they truly are) the same way he would deal with everyone.

[Tekania]

I'd imagine ones opinion on that would be colored as well by ones soterological view.

Actually people often say "But what about those born homosexual" as if its some special incident, when really, according to Christian philosophy, we are all born sinners anyway because our human nature is sinful. So God would deal with those born gay (if they truly are) the same way he would deal with everyone.

Sorry, that's not true for all Christian Soteriological views..... though it is a common thread through Protestant ones.

[Madredia]

Well to be honest I'm not familiar with every single sect of Christianity, but I believe humans are born into sin. Anywho, whether homosexuality is a sin or not, doesn't really concern me, because I have no homosexual inclinations. Thats between those who are homosexual and the god they profess to worship.

[Ecans]

I'd imagine ones opinion on that would be colored as well by ones soterological view.

Actually people often say "But what about those born homosexual" as if its some special incident, when really, according to Christian philosophy, we are all born sinners anyway because our human nature is sinful. So God would deal with those born gay (if they truly are) the same way he would deal with everyone.

And therefore, since we are all born into sin, (something I can't quite grasp when looking at a newborn baby) there should be nothing to keep gay clergy out or condemn gay marriage. If God deals with all sinners alike and even clergy are sinners I can't find any logic in banning gay clergy.

[Tmutarakhan]

I'd imagine ones opinion on that would be colored as well by ones soterological view.

Actually people often say "But what about those born homosexual" as if its some special incident, when really, according to Christian philosophy, we are all born sinners anyway because our human nature is sinful. So God would deal with those born gay (if they truly are) the same way he would deal with everyone.

Allowing them love and joy in their lives, as God would allow for anyone else? That doesn't seem to be what you mean.

[Tmutarakhan]

Grenartia: Ever read Through the Looking-Glass? Remember how the exchange between Humpty-Dumpty and Alice ended?

In case you don't, I'll remind you: Humpty said something to the effect of, "The question is who Master is, that's all."

He was right, of course.

He was insanely wrong, of course, which was the author's whole point. If you are not going to use words with the intent of communicating, there is no point in speaking at all.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Grenartia: Ever read Through the Looking-Glass? Remember how the exchange between Humpty-Dumpty and Alice ended?

In case you don't, I'll remind you: Humpty said something to the effect of, "The question is who Master is, that's all."

He was right, of course.

He was insanely wrong, of course,

He really wasn't.

This is the most immediately practical implication of structuralist and post-structuralist thought.

which was the author's whole point.

Ever read Roland Barthes?

If you are not going to use words with the intent of communicating, there is no point in speaking at all.

Oh, I'm communicating. I'm just not communicating the particular network of differences the dominant power hierarchies want to me communicate.

Which is exactly what everyone else who has ever contested whether X or Y is inside or outside of Christianity has done. I've just chosen a particularly radically new network of differences than most of them have.

[Madredia]

Actually people often say "But what about those born homosexual" as if its some special incident, when really, according to Christian philosophy, we are all born sinners anyway because our human nature is sinful. So God would deal with those born gay (if they truly are) the same way he would deal with everyone.

Allowing them love and joy in their lives, as God would allow for anyone else? That doesn't seem to be what you mean.

Actually, I meant expecting them to overcome their sin, which is what God expects of the rest of humanity.

[Madredia]

Actually people often say "But what about those born homosexual" as if its some special incident, when really, according to Christian philosophy, we are all born sinners anyway because our human nature is sinful. So God would deal with those born gay (if they truly are) the same way he would deal with everyone.

And therefore, since we are all born into sin, (something I can't quite grasp when looking at a newborn baby) there should be nothing to keep gay clergy out or condemn gay marriage. If God deals with all sinners alike and even clergy are sinners I can't find any logic in banning gay clergy.

But clergy and all Christians actually should attempt to rid themselves of sin, not wallow in it and accept it. Anything else would be hypocritical.

[Tmutarakhan]

Allowing them love and joy in their lives, as God would allow for anyone else? That doesn't seem to be what you mean.

Actually, I meant expecting them to overcome their sin, which is what God expects of the rest of humanity.

God doesn't consider love, joy, and beauty to be something that the rest of humanity has to purge from their lives to be considered "sinless".

[Madredia]

*Sigh* Please, I'm not trying to get into this argument right now. I'm trying to set up my Christmas tree. I just wanted to pose a thought.

EDIT: BTW, I've never experienced anything as joyful, lovely, and beautiful as fellowship with God, regardless of the things I have to put off for it.

[Sardakhar]

I have no problem with LGBT Christians. While I do despise the LGBT idea itself, being a very religious and God-fearing person, I feel that being LGBT doesn't mean your rights to a good life and devotion to God can simply be revoked. After all, they are still human beings just like all the non-LGBT people.

[Menassa]

1. Yes I've read the story and it does not sound homosexual at all, it sounds like two men who share a deep friendship for each other.

2. If they were homosexual the bible would have said it outright and not tiptoed around it.

3. King David kept The Law so I doubt he was homosexual.

4. Do you believe two men can't share a deep bond and not be homosexual? That's pretty closed minded if you think like that.

1. I've never heard any completely heterosexual man ever say that another man's love was better than the love of women. Seriously. The entire story sounds like an ancient yaoi fanfic. Except its canon.

2. Then why did David say that Jonathon's love was better than that of women? Why did Jonathon effectively give up the throne to David?
David and Jonathon
3. Except that time he committed adultery.

4. I never said that at all. I will defend the concept of a 'bromance' wholeheartedly. But when one says to a group of people that the other's love was better than that of women, I have an extremely fucking hard time (read: impossible) trying to justify it as purely platonic.

http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/b ... athan.html

That's no sexual love at all!

If you read in context David's best friend had been slain.... the man who saved his life and was one of his only allies when everyone else hated him.

I see nothing sexual about it, David is simply saying that the deep emotional friendship they had was greater than that of a woman....... which if you think about the biblical marriage process.... isn't really much.

[Orcoa]

1. I've never heard any completely heterosexual man ever say that another man's love was better than the love of women. Seriously. The entire story sounds like an ancient yaoi fanfic. Except its canon.

2. Then why did David say that Jonathon's love was better than that of women? Why did Jonathon effectively give up the throne to David?
David and Jonathon
3. Except that time he committed adultery.

4. I never said that at all. I will defend the concept of a 'bromance' wholeheartedly. But when one says to a group of people that the other's love was better than that of women, I have an extremely fucking hard time (read: impossible) trying to justify it as purely platonic.

http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/b ... athan.html

That's no sexual love at all!

If you read in context David's best friend had been slain.... the man who saved his life and was one of his only allies when everyone else hated him.

I see nothing sexual about it, David is simply saying that the deep emotional friendship they had was greater than that of a woman....... which if you think about the biblical marriage process.... isn't really much.

Maybe there was a bit of romance between them, maybe not. The fact is that it's about two men who did care and fought for each other which is pretty noble for a King!

or It could of been budding romance you know

[Menassa]

That's no sexual love at all!

If you read in context David's best friend had been slain.... the man who saved his life and was one of his only allies when everyone else hated him.

I see nothing sexual about it, David is simply saying that the deep emotional friendship they had was greater than that of a woman....... which if you think about the biblical marriage process.... isn't really much.

Maybe there was a bit of romance between them, maybe not. The fact is that it's about two men who did care and fought for each other which is pretty noble for a King!

or It could of been budding romance you know

I highly doubt that would have been a possibility taking in note to social stigma that came with homosexuality in Ancient Israel.

But I'll see what Rashi says.

[Tsuntion]

I have no problem with LGBT Christians. While I do despise the LGBT idea itself, being a very religious and God-fearing person, I feel that being LGBT doesn't mean your rights to a good life and devotion to God can simply be revoked. After all, they are still human beings just like all the non-LGBT people.

Being religious and God-fearing doesn't mean you have to despise people. Still, you do seem nice about it; thanks. :)