LGBT Christians, yeah we exist.

[Tmutarakhan]

^This

Even someone who doesn't believe the Bible is the word of God, in any sense?

Then what the Hell is "Christianity" supposed to mean??? For a term to have meaning, it's got to have some definitions. "Sinner" would be one of those.

Treating others in an unloving manner, as you yourself would not wish to be treated, would appear to be the definition of "sin" that Jesus preferred, and if "Christianity" is to mean anything, it ought to include at least some respect for the opinions of Jesus.

More definitively, a "repentant sinner". If you know something is objectively wrong yet you continue to do it, even though you could stop, are you not an "UNrepentant sinner"?

"Objectively" wrong? What exactly do you mean by that?

I am not saying ALL gays are unrepentant sinners. Many don't know or understand why it's a sin.

Of course not, since you have provided no reason whatever for anyone to think it is a sin.

[Risottia]

It kinda makes me wonder where you draw the line, though. Can you cuddle with someone of the same sex? What about kissing? If you can kiss them, can you use tongue?

I'm no expert, but I would guess that would be fine, as long as the intent isn't lustful.

You should ask a Jesuit, though.

[New Bierstaat]

So While I've been away at university a friend from back home who has stayed in considerably better contact with the church congregation I was a part of back home than I has informed me that our curate (read: priest in training in Anglicanism) has come out as gay and she is planning on having a civil partnership in our church in about 6 months time.

Now I'm ecstatic about this she's a wonderful woman who deserves to be happy considering her job basically involves being there for our community, and I am quite glad that my congregation has been very accepting of her life choice as I myself am Bi-sexual (albeit I'm not exactly open about it), any way this gave me the idea for this very thread.

So some talking points, what say you other Christians of NSG? do you think it's okay for the LGBT community to be part of Christianity? Do you support LGBT clergy? I obviously do. And so does for that matter the Anglican communion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bishops#In_modern_Anglicanism
If the answer fellow Christians to those two questions is perhaps no, Do you consider Anglicans heretics? or something akin to that?

Any way sorry for the scatter brained OP... but there you go! Thoughts? comments? theological Theses? have at it NSG!

Is this a thread like most, where you want to hear other people's opinions as long as they're liberal, or is anyone's opinion welcome?

My church, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, condemns homosexuality, and always has. The church opens its doors to homosexuals just like all sinners, as God loves them, but does not endorse or accept their lifestyle. Because of this, the idea of homosexual clergy is unthinkable.

Most Christian churches are starting to accept, or have already accepted, homosexuality. My church is one of a few on the right that does not and will not.

You'll find in the United States that Protestant churches in the city generally will be more liberal about homosexual clergy, while rural ones almost universally oppose it, but that Protestant denominations that oppose gay clergy do so in all their churches.

Anyways, back on topic, I don't believe that my church regards any church as heretic simply because of its stance on homosexuality. They just don't agree. It takes more than that for the LCMS to label a church as outside of Christianity. Only Mormons (Latter-Day Saints) and a couple other church groups are far-out enough to garner that distinction.

No theological theses here. I have exams to study for. Wish me luck!

[Grenartia]

I'm noticing that your LGB is lacking in T.

Yes. Its rather 'not cool' to not accept yourself as you were made.

Sounds rather judgmental to me.

So you figured out there are gay christians, want a cookie? Next topic.

If you're not going to post something that legitimately contributes to the discussion, why even participate?

It's actually extraordinarily clear in scripture that Jesus is very much against homosexuality. Therefore being gay would have to be the opposite of being a Christian (disciple of Jesus), ns the same way that being adulterous or being hateful are the opposite of being a Christian. This is not to say that there are not genuine Christians who struggle with homosexuality in the same way that all Christians struggle with sin, because that's just a part of life. But for any church to officially condone homosexuality would be equally heretical as if it were to condone adultery, and not being a disciple of Christ just doesn't have any place in Christianity (duh). If you disagree with the idea of homosexuality being wrong, ok, but don't pretend like that's a Christian concept, cuz it's absolutely antithetical to Christianity.

Perhaps you would care to reference a specific book, chapter, and verse? Because I can't find anything anywhere in the Bible thats explicitly anti-LGBT, much less something Jesus Himself said.

The smartest Catholic of the year in regards to gay rights.

Anglican orders haven't been valid since the 1500s or so, so we don't recognise any of your clergy as valid, female or not.
That said, even if they were valid, somehow it just doesn't jive with St. Paul's views on homosexuality. He clearly condemned the acts of sodomy, pederasty, sapphism*, along with fornication, adultery, and incest, among other things.

That said, homosexuality was highly uncommon - and it was uncommon sense, also - in his time. Our times are fraught with a distinct lack of common sense and emotionalism over the use of reason. Our world is very tangled, confused, scared, and hurt - I don't doubt due to a large amount of misinformation wrought by the media and mass media (the press, and the Internet). We, as a culture, don't know what's truth anymore, because so many people tell us this or that is truth, and so many people have abused us, whether as individuals, or as a part of some group.

There needs to be emotional healing between people before they will accept the truth - that God exists, that Christ died and rose again, and that His Church has lasted for 2000 years, waiting to embrace anyone who enters and lead them to Heaven. Whether this is true or not, people will not listen to the truth if it comes from someone they see as someone who hates them.

I hate to say it, but while we absolutely cannot accept gay "marriage" or sodomy as practises appropriate to a wholesome Christian life - as they simply, in fact, are not - the Catholic Church does need to expand its PR department and reach out to our LGBT brothers and sisters in charity and warmth.

*Or, as it's commonly called, "lesbianism" - those poor people of Lesbos, Greece.

Sounds rather closed minded to me.

Yeah, you exist, and since there are these little passages called "Leviticus 18:22" and "Romans 1:26-27", I wonder how you make it fit with being both Christian and LGBT(QI).

Neither of those passages address consensual, committed homosexuality between adults. IIRC, they more accurately address either temple prostitution, pedophilia, rape, or sex without love.

I suggest reading the story of David and Jonathon, then come back and try to tell me its not a celebration of a homosexual relationship.

They were born as women who are meant to become men, or vice versa. If changing the parts makes them more like themselves, who are we to act against them? Besides, didn't God make all people in his image? Thus, are they really changing anything? I mean, they still look like people.

Common misconception. Our spirits were made in the likeness of our father who is in Heaven. The father is in all actuality without a body. (But that's just my denominational opinion)

To me attempting to alter one’s gender by surgery or appearance violates Our father's Word.

For your consideration: What if God actually creates and intends for some people to be a woman trapped in a man's body, or vice versa, and is not opposed to their wanting to transition?

Know what? I'm just going to say it even if I catch hell for this...

LGBT (sex and marriage wise) and Christianity don't fit together too well. Its pretty clear that both Jesus and Paul condemned Sodomy and even said they wouldn't see Heaven (those who practiced sodomy). However, you can like the same sex and still go to heaven without LGBT being sinful, although this requires a person of that stature to not practice homosexuality, which includes not getting married to the opposite sex. So it narrows down an LGBT congregation to mainly supporting their brethren in Christ, not through sexual acts.

This is something that was condemned in the New Testament (homosexual sexual acts).

Actually, its not. Its about as clear as a fucking blizzard.

And mini-Jesus is here to back you up.

I have no problem with LGBT Christians. I just find it odd that they would belong to a religion that vehemently condemns the way they live their lives. Cherry picking beliefs is such a peculiar thing.

Its only certain subsets of our religion that condemn us. And I don't cherry-pick my beliefs.

I'm an athiest, but I have also read the Bible. Cover to cover. Word for word. Page to page. There is absolutely no way to reconcile Christian Faith with a homosexual lifestyle. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament make it clear that God judges unrepentant homosexuals as sinners worthy of hell. So if you are gay and christian, you will have to either constantly apologise for it and live a life of self loathing, or renounce homosexuality all together. There is no way of having your cake and eating it too.

Actually, when one realizes that what is being condemned is temple prostitution, sex without love, rape, and pedophilia, the underlined is totally possible.

As a pansexual androgynous Christian, I see no need to loathe myself, and to renounce my sexual orientation and gender identity.

1. Christians adhere to the Bible, yes? 2. And the Bible says that gayness is bad, yes? 3. So if you are gay, you can't be Christian can you? You can believe in a God. You can do the rituals. But you can't really be entirely Christian, can you?

This spoken as a very pro-LGBT person, and a very anti-Christian one.

1. More or less, yes.

2. Not consensual, committed homosexuality.

3. The rest of the assumptions in your post are wrong, because your 2nd assumption is wrong. Basically, its like basing mathematics off of the assumption that 2+2 will always be 5.

do you think it's okay for the LGBT community to be part of Christianity?

1. Certainly can't stop anyone from having Faith, but have you at least tried to pray it away or something?

Do you support LGBT clergy?

2. Certainly not given the reputation of the Catholic sexual abuse cases [the vast majority of which were male-on-male]

1. All the evidence suggests that "praying away the gay" does not, nor will it ever work. In fact, the evidence suggests that "reparative therapy", at best, has no effect either way, and at worst, only serves to make the person feel worse about themselves (and don't even get me started on the effects on non-adults). Its like giving snakeoil laced with radium to a hypochondriac. The 'cure' for the non-existent problem not only does no good, but will probably itself cause an even worse problem.

2. That's pedophilia, not consensual homosexuality. Besides, studies have shown that 99% of all pedophiles are heterosexual.

how do you know it would work

Because humanity is good like that. At one point in our history a common cold was considered incurable.

why is it important to cure them?

I don't think it is important, or that it should be forced onto people but treatment should be something that is available for those who need [or want] it.

The common cold is STILL incurable. Also, I fail to see the similarities between a viral invasion of somebody's body (having the common cold), and a non-controllable personal trait (being LGBT).

The only reason there's a need for it is because other people are so rabidly against it. Its like going back to the 50s/60s and saying there needs to be a 'racial conversion' therapy for black people who wish or need to become white.

I'm a Christian male, 23, married and am a Youth Decan.

1. There is no question that the bible is firmly against homosexualty. God only uses the word "abomination". Homosexualty is one of those very rare moments. 2. It's a clear sin for a man to lay with another man. Like wise with a woman. However, times have changed, and Jesus teaches to love everyone, pray for everyone, try to change ALL sinners for the Glory of God.

One huge way that we've changed is that we don't stone sinners anymore. Since Christ we have been taught to love beyond everything else. HOWEVER, Homosexualty is still a sin. I'm very bothered by Gay leaders of any church. It's bad enough that ANYONE would sin, but to be in a position of leadership in the church, openly and exceptedly lead a congregation is beyond me. It's a clear violation of biblical law, and to ignor that and take up a position in the church of leadership is crazy. Sinners belong in church. But Sinners DO NOT belong LEADING a congregation. It's cleaer cut...


SIDE NOTE: 3. Gay marriage also bothers me, as marriage is a Christian (OR GODLY) ceremony. It's a spit in MY (Christian people) to defile something so holy and secred. To be performed by a group of sinners that God calls an abomination, it's heart breaking.

4. Fighting for civil rights is fine, but NOT when it throws away MY civil rights as a Christian by allowing a holy ceremony to be infetrated by something we consider a sin.

1. Actually, there is a considerable amount of questions.

2. About as clear as a blizzard.

3. No its not. After all, we let people of other religions marry, and even those without religious affiliation. Unless you're going to try to convince me those marriages are wrong as well.

4. Just let me get your argument right. You're concerned that by my fighting for my civil rights, I am inherently infringing on your church's beliefs? Please, elaborate. Because that makes about as much sense as saying that me eating meat infringes on my vegetarian friends' beliefs.

You don't own marriage, especially considering that the early Christians were actually against marriage and taught that Christians should be lifelong celibates. The Catholic Church used to teach that marriage was an earthly matter and separate from their holy duty. Marriage only became a sacred sacrament once cynical popes found that they could make money off of it. You don't get to adopt a ritual that existed long before you religion, a ritual which you originally rejected and then act as if that ritual is now the sole property of your religious institution.

Marriage PRE0-dates the Christian faith, it dates back to early God fearing faiths, such as Hebrew.

BTW, yes, we do own it.

Really? I'd like a credible source for that last one. Preferably a document between all of the religious affiliations of the world stating that whatever Christian denomination you belong to owns marriage. Short of that, I'm calling bullshit, and will use your claims to feed the grass on my front lawn. Its looking thin and brown, and needs the nutrients.

[2Chainz]

Look, Christian opposition to homosexual unions is not bigotry as many people claim. It's just some good old fashioned Jewish morality (after all, Christianity is a religion based in Judaism).

Now if you want to bash and degrade a worldview that has been around for millennia, be my guest. Just know that you have now labeled yourself as anti-Semitic.

Very Hitler-esque of you. Did I just pull the Hitler card? I think so. Argument: closed.

[Uiiop]

Look, Christian opposition to homosexual unions is not bigotry as many people claim. It's just some good old fashioned Jewish morality (after all, Christianity is a religion based in Judaism).

Now if you want to bash and degrade a worldview that has been around for millennia, be my guest. Just know that you have now labeled yourself as anti-Semitic.

Very Hitler-esque of you. Did I just pull the Hitler card? I think so. Argument: closed.

They're aware of bigotry thank you very much. They know that context still doesn't change the fact Christians are doing this. Just tell us what angle or point you're trying to make with the godwin's law abuse you did please.

[Vareiln]

Look, Christian opposition to homosexual unions is not bigotry as many people claim. It's just some good old fashioned Jewish morality (after all, Christianity is a religion based in Judaism).

Now if you want to bash and degrade a worldview that has been around for millennia, be my guest. Just know that you have now labeled yourself as anti-Semitic.

Very Hitler-esque of you. Did I just pull the Hitler card? I think so. Argument: closed.

They're aware of bigotry thank you very much. They know that context still doesn't change the fact Christians are doing this. Just tell us what angle or point you're trying to make with the godwin's law abuse you did please.

Sarcasm. You need to learn to detect it.

[Uiiop]

They're aware of bigotry thank you very much. They know that context still doesn't change the fact Christians are doing this. Just tell us what angle or point you're trying to make with the godwin's law abuse you did please.

Sarcasm. You need to learn to detect it.

oh sorry poe's law

[Farnhamia]

They're aware of bigotry thank you very much. They know that context still doesn't change the fact Christians are doing this. Just tell us what angle or point you're trying to make with the godwin's law abuse you did please.

Sarcasm. You need to learn to detect it.

Oh? Is 2Chainz your puppet?

[Geilinor]

Look, Christian opposition to homosexual unions is not bigotry as many people claim. It's just some good old fashioned Jewish morality (after all, Christianity is a religion based in Judaism).

Now if you want to bash and degrade a worldview that has been around for millennia, be my guest. Just know that you have now labeled yourself as anti-Semitic.

Very Hitler-esque of you. Did I just pull the Hitler card? I think so. Argument: closed.

Lack of belief in women's rights was a world view for millennia. Should we go back to the days when women didn't have rights? Oh, and slavery was practiced for millennia. Also racism was and is still practiced.

[2Chainz]

Sarcasm. You need to learn to detect it.

Nailed it

Oh? Is 2Chainz your puppet?

Nope, never talked to him/her before in my life

[Geilinor]

They're aware of bigotry thank you very much. They know that context still doesn't change the fact Christians are doing this. Just tell us what angle or point you're trying to make with the godwin's law abuse you did please.

Sarcasm. You need to learn to detect it.

It was horrid sarcasm.

[Farnhamia]

Sarcasm. You need to learn to detect it.

Nailed it

Oh? Is 2Chainz your puppet?

Nope, never talked to him/her before in my life

Indeed? Given that was your second post, we had very little evidence on which to base a judgment of sarcasm.

[Olivaero]

Look, Christian opposition to homosexual unions is not bigotry as many people claim. It's just some good old fashioned Jewish morality (after all, Christianity is a religion based in Judaism).

Now if you want to bash and degrade a worldview that has been around for millennia, be my guest. Just know that you have now labeled yourself as anti-Semitic.

Very Hitler-esque of you. Did I just pull the Hitler card? I think so. Argument: closed.

It's funny because I was talking as a Christian... So this isn't relevant at all?

[The French Kingdom]

It's actually extraordinarily clear in scripture that Jesus is very much against homosexuality. Therefore being gay would have to be the opposite of being a Christian (disciple of Jesus), ns the same way that being adulterous or being hateful are the opposite of being a Christian. This is not to say that there are not genuine Christians who struggle with homosexuality in the same way that all Christians struggle with sin, because that's just a part of life. But for any church to officially condone homosexuality would be equally heretical as if it were to condone adultery, and not being a disciple of Christ just doesn't have any place in Christianity (duh). If you disagree with the idea of homosexuality being wrong, ok, but don't pretend like that's a Christian concept, cuz it's absolutely antithetical to Christianity.

This is a heresy as there is no evidence to support this idea. It is conjecture on the words of Jesus, thus blasphemy.

[Antiliberalbis]

Actually, when one realizes that what is being condemned is temple prostitution, sex without love, rape, and pedophilia, the underlined is totally possible.

Cherry picking the parts of the bible you like to suit your arguments is not very honest. You may want to read these versus.

Romans 1:26
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Note how it not only condemns the action, but the concept of lust as well.

Corinithians 6:9-10
Don’t you know that evil people won’t have a share in the blessings of God’s kingdom? Don’t fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual 10 will share in God’s kingdom.

Again, the action is not only condemned, but simply "behaving" like a homosexual is enough to keep you out of heaven, whether you believe it is a sin or not.

Timothy 1: 8-10
We know that the Law is good, if it is used in the right way. 9 We also understand that it wasn’t given to control people who please God, but to control lawbreakers, criminals, godless people, and sinners. It is for wicked and evil people, and for murderers, who would even kill their own parents. 10 The Law was written for people who are sexual perverts or who live as homosexuals or are kidnappers or liars or won’t tell the truth in court. It is for anything else that opposes the correct teaching

Note how murdererers of parents and homosexuals are equated as the same wicked people.

[Tmutarakhan]

Corinithians 6:9-10
Don’t you know that evil people won’t have a share in the blessings of God’s kingdom? Don’t fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual 10 will share in God’s kingdom.

When was this version of the text created? The day before yesterday?

[Fluffy Coyotes]

Corinithians 6:9-10
Don’t you know that evil people won’t have a share in the blessings of God’s kingdom? Don’t fool yourselves! No one who is immoral or worships idols or is unfaithful in marriage or is a pervert or behaves like a homosexual 10 will share in God’s kingdom.

When was this version of the text created? The day before yesterday?

I don't know what translation that is, but my copy has it written as "do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

Even if it's a translation error, (in which case it's a pretty common one) doesn't that reflect poorly on the Bible in a more general sense anyway? There are plenty of reasons why even straight people should find the Bible ridiculous, but LGBT folks happen to have a couple more reasons on top of everything else.

[Farnhamia]

When was this version of the text created? The day before yesterday?

I don't know what translation that is, but my copy has it written as "do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

Even if it's a translation error, (in which case it's a pretty common one) doesn't that reflect poorly on the Bible in a more general sense anyway? There are plenty of reasons why even straight people should find the Bible ridiculous, but LGBT folks happen to have a couple more reasons on top of everything else.

The Kingdom of Yahweh of Edom? Right ... behold:

It's a desert. Now, Canaan before his worshippers got to it was a land flowing with milk and honey.

[Orcoa]

I don't know what translation that is, but my copy has it written as "do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

Even if it's a translation error, (in which case it's a pretty common one) doesn't that reflect poorly on the Bible in a more general sense anyway? There are plenty of reasons why even straight people should find the Bible ridiculous, but LGBT folks happen to have a couple more reasons on top of everything else.

The Kingdom of Yahweh of Edom? Right ... behold:

It's a desert. Now, Canaan before his worshippers got to it was a land flowing with milk and honey.

Let me tell ya milk and honey mixed?

Mmm! That shit is like Mountain Dew!

[Farnhamia]

The Kingdom of Yahweh of Edom? Right ... behold:

It's a desert. Now, Canaan before his worshippers got to it was a land flowing with milk and honey.

Let me tell ya milk and honey mixed?

Mmm! That shit is like Mountain Dew!

And it's not a weird green color.

[Orcoa]

Let me tell ya milk and honey mixed?

Mmm! That shit is like Mountain Dew!

And it's not a weird green color.

Now you understand!

Jews, Muslims, Christians were not fighting for religious reasons....it was for that Heavenly brew!

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

So While I've been away at university a friend from back home who has stayed in considerably better contact with the church congregation I was a part of back home than I has informed me that our curate (read: priest in training in Anglicanism) has come out as gay and she is planning on having a civil partnership in our church in about 6 months time.

Now I'm ecstatic about this she's a wonderful woman who deserves to be happy considering her job basically involves being there for our community, and I am quite glad that my congregation has been very accepting of her life choice as I myself am Bi-sexual (albeit I'm not exactly open about it), any way this gave me the idea for this very thread.

So some talking points, what say you other Christians of NSG? do you think it's okay for the LGBT community to be part of Christianity? Do you support LGBT clergy? I obviously do. And so does for that matter the Anglican communion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bishops#In_modern_Anglicanism
If the answer fellow Christians to those two questions is perhaps no, Do you consider Anglicans heretics? or something akin to that?

Any way sorry for the scatter brained OP... but there you go! Thoughts? comments? theological Theses? have at it NSG!

Is this a thread like most, where you want to hear other people's opinions as long as they're liberal, or is anyone's opinion welcome?

My church, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, condemns homosexuality, and always has.

Then your church is not a Christian organization, and needs to stop calling itself one.

[Vazdania]

Is this a thread like most, where you want to hear other people's opinions as long as they're liberal, or is anyone's opinion welcome?

My church, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, condemns homosexuality, and always has.

Then your church is not a Christian organization, and needs to stop calling itself one.

The Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) is QUITE Christian.

[Farnhamia]

Then your church is not a Christian organization, and needs to stop calling itself one.

The Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod) is QUITE Christian.

Go ahead, argue with Bluth about Christianity. I'll make popcorn.