The parable of the three Bicycles

[Treznor]

You sure know how to ruin a story. Thanks.

You're welcome. The story-telling market is pretty brutal, so it's best to work out the flaws in the story early before you go public with it. Fortunately, you've got a wide range of readers willing to beta for you, and demonstrate where you've gone wrong.

[The Rifle Brigade]

OK. First, yes there are other Nuclear engineers, Train Engineers etc. We are talking about Bikes.... Focus people.

Bike design also involves different engineers, metallurgical engineers, mechanical engineers, polymer engineers. You might want to "focus" a little yourself.

The idea of an Optimal Bike is such that for a given MODEL of a bike, there is an OPTIMAL Assembled specification. Now, because there are different models, there are different specs. But all Bikes resemble a Base Model, call it Bike 1.0.

Now, wrap your minds around this one, because the models are so similar, one manual is sufficient to ensure proper assembly of all models. Who hasnt seen manuals that say "if you have option B, then go to step 4, if not, go to step 7".

We have been wrapping our minds around your allegory, which is why its so easy to point out the flaws. If not just every model, but every bike is different, the "if/then" branching would then be definitively inefficient for algorithm reasons that an engineer would understand.

[The Rifle Brigade]

Sorry, this got lost in the sea of blather.

Which brings me to my next point..... Dont smoke crack. Sorry, I had to do it.

No, that is a very important point. Which is the point that many people struggle with. So many boxes, so many manuals, different parts, etc. I feel for those people. I was one of them.

This is exactly the story of Joseph Smith. He was faced with ALMOST the exact dilema you described (ok, not Blargs). He, at least, believed in God. He had observed the many Churches that were springing up in his little town and how vastly different thier doctrines were. There is more, I am sure you can find it if you looked. I am not sure this is the appropriate time or place for me to keep going.

And his previous scams for which he'd been arrested, like claiming he could find water for farms by using a magic stick, weren't working out, so...

(seriously, this is true. Look it up.)

[The Rifle Brigade]

I have to be honest, I'm losing track of whether I should start following the bible or enter the Tour de France.

heh, Bible? I didnt say a word about the Bible. Maybe I did, I am conversing in 2 different threads.

Well, in the OP, you said this was from Mathew or Mark. So, as usual, you either aren't being honest or you can't keep your own argument straight.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

You sure know how to ruin a story. Thanks.

You're welcome. The story-telling market is pretty brutal, so it's best to work out the flaws in the story early before you go public with it. Fortunately, you've got a wide range of readers willing to beta for you, and demonstrate where you've gone wrong.

AWESOME, unpaid beta testers. Wait, doing stuff for free? I cant have that. That is a LIBERAL idea. I must find a way to pay you for what your comments are worth. OK. I have. Thanks. Pleasure doing business with you

[The Rifle Brigade]

Shh.... I am having fun. Surely you wont deny me that, right? I may just make this idea into a book.

It took you how many pages to figure out that a basic literary technique like parables are allegorical (after it was explained to you half a dozen times), and you're going to write a book?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

I have to be honest, I'm losing track of whether I should start following the bible or enter the Tour de France.

heh, Bible? I didnt say a word about the Bible. Maybe I did, I am conversing in 2 different threads.

Well, in the OP, you said this was from Mathew or Mark. So, as usual, you either aren't being honest or you can't keep your own argument straight.

Hmm.... Could it be that Matthew, my next door neighbor or his Second Cousin Twice removed, Mark, TOLD me the story and I just plagarized?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

Shh.... I am having fun. Surely you wont deny me that, right? I may just make this idea into a book.

It took you how many pages to figure out that a basic literary technique like parables are allegorical (after it was explained to you half a dozen times), and you're going to write a book?

Your mom just told me to tell you to go home. Sorry that was uncalled for.

I love you TRB.

[The Rifle Brigade]

I have to be honest, I'm losing track of whether I should start following the bible or enter the Tour de France.

heh, Bible? I didnt say a word about the Bible. Maybe I did, I am conversing in 2 different threads.

Well, in the OP, you said this was from Mathew or Mark. So, as usual, you either aren't being honest or you can't keep your own argument straight.

Hmm.... Could it be that Matthew, my next door neighbor or his Second Cousin Twice removed, Mark, TOLD me the story and I just plagarized?

Again, using words you don't understand. If you cite who it comes from, its not plagiarism. Quit using legal terms that you have no clue about.

It was obviously a ham handed attempt at adapting the bible, and like people have pointed out, it was torn apart. The only thing worthwhile in this thread is that you finally figured out that parables are allegorical, something middle school english students learn first semester.

[The Rifle Brigade]

Shh.... I am having fun. Surely you wont deny me that, right? I may just make this idea into a book.

It took you how many pages to figure out that a basic literary technique like parables are allegorical (after it was explained to you half a dozen times), and you're going to write a book?

Your mom just told me to tell you to go home. Sorry that was uncalled for.

I love you TRB.

It just shows your level of "cogent debate". Keep going with it.

[Treznor]

Sorry, this got lost in the sea of blather.

Which brings me to my next point..... Dont smoke crack. Sorry, I had to do it.

No, that is a very important point. Which is the point that many people struggle with. So many boxes, so many manuals, different parts, etc. I feel for those people. I was one of them.

This is exactly the story of Joseph Smith. He was faced with ALMOST the exact dilema you described (ok, not Blargs). He, at least, believed in God. He had observed the many Churches that were springing up in his little town and how vastly different thier doctrines were. There is more, I am sure you can find it if you looked. I am not sure this is the appropriate time or place for me to keep going.

And his previous scams for which he'd been arrested, like claiming he could find water for farms by using a magic stick, weren't working out, so...

(seriously, this is true. Look it up.)

My favorite part:

Fraser's reports that Joseph said he spent most of his time with Stowell farming and going to school, with only a small part of the time devoted to money digging. He admitted that he had a stone which he used to look for treasure and looked for Stowell "several times." He said that formerly he had looked for lost articles with the stone but had lately given this up. He insisted that he did not solicit this kind of work.

In the Purple account, Joseph purportedly went into more detail on how he found the stone, learning of it from a girl in the neighborhood, who, through means of her own stone, showed him its location buried beneath a tree many miles away. Purple said Joseph claimed the stone enabled him to annihilate time and distance, that it was "an all seeing eye" and gave him "attributes of deity." Purple also said Joseph exhibited the stone in court and that it was the size of a hen's egg.

Does this strike anyone as a familiar theme? How did Joseph Smith later come by the Mormon tablets, and then translate them?

[The_pantless_hero]

Joseph Smith, dum dum dum dum.

[The Rifle Brigade]

Joseph Smith, dum dum dum dum.

Yes. Apparently, the manual says that if you get the black bike, is a "Law of God" that will "Always be so" that you should not be allowed to ride with white people.

[Iniika]

When the "manual" in question is a work of fiction that doesn't even remotely describe a bicycle, then it's best to get a second and third opinion. "Following the manual" is not always the best option, when the manual is wrong.

Except when the manual was written by the manufactuer specifically to aid you in building the bicycle.

See, this would be fine if the people who didn't know how to build a bike, or were uncertain how to build a bike, or perhaps had never seen a bike before used the manual to, you know, build a bike.

Problems begin to happen when some people then try to apply the bike building manual to changing a flat tire on the car, fixing a leaky drain, cooking a meatloaf or nuetering their dog.

Then these same people get it into their head that EVERYONE needs to be reading the bike building manual, regardless of whether or not they own or want a bike. They begin to believe that there isn't one single person who shouldn't be on a bike, and who shouldn't be reading the bike building manual every day and consulting it to fix the miriad of daily problems that pop up in life.

OK, Granted, when you put it that way, the parable looses something. Parables are stories. They aren't logical analytical law school texts.

Very much like the prevailing religious scripture? Just stories and guides for living a decent life, perhaps? Not concrete rules that all of humanity must live by or suffer for eternity? Maybe that there isn't an invisible sky man that must be obeyed or suffer the consequences? Just stories and metaphors that generally speak about the human condition and how it can be improved?

[KiloMikeAlpha]

When the "manual" in question is a work of fiction that doesn't even remotely describe a bicycle, then it's best to get a second and third opinion. "Following the manual" is not always the best option, when the manual is wrong.

Except when the manual was written by the manufactuer specifically to aid you in building the bicycle.

See, this would be fine if the people who didn't know how to build a bike, or were uncertain how to build a bike, or perhaps had never seen a bike before used the manual to, you know, build a bike.

Problems begin to happen when some people then try to apply the bike building manual to changing a flat tire on the car, fixing a leaky drain, cooking a meatloaf or nuetering their dog.

Then these same people get it into their head that EVERYONE needs to be reading the bike building manual, regardless of whether or not they own or want a bike. They begin to believe that there isn't one single person who shouldn't be on a bike, and who shouldn't be reading the bike building manual every day and consulting it to fix the miriad of daily problems that pop up in life.

OK, Granted, when you put it that way, the parable looses something. Parables are stories. They aren't logical analytical law school texts.

Very much like the prevailing religious scripture? Just stories and guides for living a decent life, perhaps? Not concrete rules that all of humanity must live by or suffer for eternity? Maybe that there isn't an invisible sky man that must be obeyed or suffer the consequences? Just stories and metaphors that generally speak about the human condition and how it can be improved?

True, very true. Like a "Improving your Life for dummies" book or something. I guess I could turn to Dr. Phil, or Oprah. If people even saw the bible as that then things would be better. Oh well.

[The Rifle Brigade]

When the "manual" in question is a work of fiction that doesn't even remotely describe a bicycle, then it's best to get a second and third opinion. "Following the manual" is not always the best option, when the manual is wrong.

Except when the manual was written by the manufactuer specifically to aid you in building the bicycle.

See, this would be fine if the people who didn't know how to build a bike, or were uncertain how to build a bike, or perhaps had never seen a bike before used the manual to, you know, build a bike.

Problems begin to happen when some people then try to apply the bike building manual to changing a flat tire on the car, fixing a leaky drain, cooking a meatloaf or nuetering their dog.

Then these same people get it into their head that EVERYONE needs to be reading the bike building manual, regardless of whether or not they own or want a bike. They begin to believe that there isn't one single person who shouldn't be on a bike, and who shouldn't be reading the bike building manual every day and consulting it to fix the miriad of daily problems that pop up in life.

OK, Granted, when you put it that way, the parable looses something. Parables are stories. They aren't logical analytical law school texts.

Very much like the prevailing religious scripture? Just stories and guides for living a decent life, perhaps? Not concrete rules that all of humanity must live by or suffer for eternity? Maybe that there isn't an invisible sky man that must be obeyed or suffer the consequences? Just stories and metaphors that generally speak about the human condition and how it can be improved?

True, very true. Like a "Improving your Life for dummies" book or something. I guess I could turn to Dr. Phil, or Oprah. If people even saw the bible as that then things would be better. Oh well.

Beautiful. Either you failed to understand Iniika's post, or you just agreed that that your religion isn't literally true.

[Ashmoria]

Sorry, this got lost in the sea of blather.

Which brings me to my next point..... Dont smoke crack. Sorry, I had to do it.

No, that is a very important point. Which is the point that many people struggle with. So many boxes, so many manuals, different parts, etc. I feel for those people. I was one of them.

This is exactly the story of Joseph Smith. He was faced with ALMOST the exact dilema you described (ok, not Blargs). He, at least, believed in God. He had observed the many Churches that were springing up in his little town and how vastly different thier doctrines were. There is more, I am sure you can find it if you looked. I am not sure this is the appropriate time or place for me to keep going.

And his previous scams for which he'd been arrested, like claiming he could find water for farms by using a magic stick, weren't working out, so...

(seriously, this is true. Look it up.)

My favorite part:

Fraser's reports that Joseph said he spent most of his time with Stowell farming and going to school, with only a small part of the time devoted to money digging. He admitted that he had a stone which he used to look for treasure and looked for Stowell "several times." He said that formerly he had looked for lost articles with the stone but had lately given this up. He insisted that he did not solicit this kind of work.

In the Purple account, Joseph purportedly went into more detail on how he found the stone, learning of it from a girl in the neighborhood, who, through means of her own stone, showed him its location buried beneath a tree many miles away. Purple said Joseph claimed the stone enabled him to annihilate time and distance, that it was "an all seeing eye" and gave him "attributes of deity." Purple also said Joseph exhibited the stone in court and that it was the size of a hen's egg.

Does this strike anyone as a familiar theme? How did Joseph Smith later come by the Mormon tablets, and then translate them?

there is SO much to love about the joseph smith story. he is the quntessential american theologian.

[KiloMikeAlpha]

When the "manual" in question is a work of fiction that doesn't even remotely describe a bicycle, then it's best to get a second and third opinion. "Following the manual" is not always the best option, when the manual is wrong.

Except when the manual was written by the manufactuer specifically to aid you in building the bicycle.

See, this would be fine if the people who didn't know how to build a bike, or were uncertain how to build a bike, or perhaps had never seen a bike before used the manual to, you know, build a bike.

Problems begin to happen when some people then try to apply the bike building manual to changing a flat tire on the car, fixing a leaky drain, cooking a meatloaf or nuetering their dog.

Then these same people get it into their head that EVERYONE needs to be reading the bike building manual, regardless of whether or not they own or want a bike. They begin to believe that there isn't one single person who shouldn't be on a bike, and who shouldn't be reading the bike building manual every day and consulting it to fix the miriad of daily problems that pop up in life.

OK, Granted, when you put it that way, the parable looses something. Parables are stories. They aren't logical analytical law school texts.

Very much like the prevailing religious scripture? Just stories and guides for living a decent life, perhaps? Not concrete rules that all of humanity must live by or suffer for eternity? Maybe that there isn't an invisible sky man that must be obeyed or suffer the consequences? Just stories and metaphors that generally speak about the human condition and how it can be improved?

True, very true. Like a "Improving your Life for dummies" book or something. I guess I could turn to Dr. Phil, or Oprah. If people even saw the bible as that then things would be better. Oh well.

Beautiful. Either you failed to understand Iniika's post, or you just agreed that that your religion isn't literally true.

yeah, today's discussion has made me see the light. I will go tell my Bishop that I quit. I will get a day off and a 10% raise. Thank you TRB for making me see the light. I love you. You have freed my mind. Thank you.

[Treznor]

yeah, today's discussion has made me see the light. I will go tell my Bishop that I quit. I will get a day off and a 10% raise. Thank you TRB for making me see the light. I love you. You have freed my mind. Thank you.

If I thought you were serious, I would offer you my congratulations.

[Cameroi]

reading this parable, the question that comes to my mind then, is did GOD "read the manual"?
obviously either you give someone free will or you micro-manage.
if you're doing the one, you're NOT doing the other.

(the road to frustration is paved with micro-management,
it's also paved with expectations, so strap ourselves in for the bumpy ride of diversity,
because that's what the real universe isn't going to be talked out of giving us)

[Muravyets]

True, very true. Like a "Improving your Life for dummies" book or something. I guess I could turn to Dr. Phil, or Oprah. If people even saw the bible as that then things would be better. Oh well.

I don't get you at all. "Things would be better" than what? I mean, what exactly is it that you're trying to achieve here? Why do you make these threads and tell these parables that are just stories that aren't about anything even though you'll spend days trying to tell us what they are about? What reaction are you hoping to get from us? I can't even believe your frustration is real because I can't figure out what you're frustrated about. Do you think you'll find some perfect way to dress up your beliefs that will make all the NSG non-believers suddenly "get it" and sign right up?

[Ashmoria]

reading this parable, the question that comes to my mind then, is did GOD "read the manual"?
obviously either you give someone free will or you micro-manage.
if you're doing the one, you're NOT doing the other.

(the road to frustration is paved with micro-management,
it's also paved with expectations, so strap ourselves in for the bumpy ride of diversity,
because that's what the real universe isn't going to be talked out of giving us)

there are lots of questions like that...

did god read the manual?
did god WRITE the manual?
does god want us to follow the manual slavishly? which manual is that?
does god hate the free will that he gave us?

[Flameswroth]

yeah, today's discussion has made me see the light. I will go tell my Bishop that I quit. I will get a day off and a 10% raise. Thank you TRB for making me see the light. I love you. You have freed my mind. Thank you.

If I thought you were serious, I would offer you my congratulations.

I daresay he was never serious. About any of this. He's kept this thread going with single-sentence responses long after most posters would have been declared 'trolls' for doing the same.

He's dang good at interwebs, I'd say. And even if he was serious, I don't think anyone has taken this seriously for the past several hours

[KiloMikeAlpha]

True, very true. Like a "Improving your Life for dummies" book or something. I guess I could turn to Dr. Phil, or Oprah. If people even saw the bible as that then things would be better. Oh well.

I don't get you at all. "Things would be better" than what? I mean, what exactly is it that you're trying to achieve here? Why do you make these threads and tell these parables that are just stories that aren't about anything even though you'll spend days trying to tell us what they are about? What reaction are you hoping to get from us? I can't even believe your frustration is real because I can't figure out what you're frustrated about. Do you think you'll find some perfect way to dress up your beliefs that will make all the NSG non-believers suddenly "get it" and sign right up?

I dont know. I observe. I watch. I see people all dark, depressed, and angry (think Emo but way worse) all around me. Especially the young ones. I dont see those people coming out of churches. I see them coming out of bars, but not churches. I say to myself, what happened to that person to make them so Evil/depressed/dark/angry? They may be like that because thier world is all askew. They are caught in crazy, viscious circles that they cant get out of.

I see others coming out of churches with bright, happy faces. To me it isnt hard to see the difference and make the connection.

My frustration is very real. LIke I said, I have been there. I have been the dark, suicidal athiest, drunk, addicted. religion turned me around. I am now (mostly) happy, bright and sober.

Is my agenda showing yet? One agenda I have is to use the tools I have been given to possibly give a bit of hope to those who dont have it. I have seen how angry people are here. it is very hard to hide it, if they are interested in hiding it in the first place. Maybe I wont make a difference, maybe I will.

[Kashindahar]

True, very true. Like a "Improving your Life for dummies" book or something. I guess I could turn to Dr. Phil, or Oprah. If people even saw the bible as that then things would be better. Oh well.

I don't get you at all. "Things would be better" than what? I mean, what exactly is it that you're trying to achieve here? Why do you make these threads and tell these parables that are just stories that aren't about anything even though you'll spend days trying to tell us what they are about? What reaction are you hoping to get from us? I can't even believe your frustration is real because I can't figure out what you're frustrated about. Do you think you'll find some perfect way to dress up your beliefs that will make all the NSG non-believers suddenly "get it" and sign right up?

I dont know. I observe. I watch. I see people all dark, depressed, and angry (think Emo but way worse) all around me. Especially the young ones. I dont see those people coming out of churches. I see them coming out of bars, but not churches. I say to myself, what happened to that person to make them so Evil/depressed/dark/angry? They may be like that because thier world is all askew. They are caught in crazy, viscious circles that they cant get out of.

I see others coming out of churches with bright, happy faces. To me it isnt hard to see the difference and make the connection.

My frustration is very real. LIke I said, I have been there. I have been the dark, suicidal athiest, drunk, addicted. religion turned me around. I am now (mostly) happy, bright and sober.

Is my agenda showing yet? One agenda I have is to use the tools I have been given to possibly give a bit of hope to those who dont have it. I have seen how angry people are here. it is very hard to hide it, if they are interested in hiding it in the first place. Maybe I wont make a difference, maybe I will.

Your solution isn't for them to fix the world around them, it's to delude themselves.

Which is marginally better than telling them to take up drug abuse.