Feminism described / defined / characterized

[Ostroeuropa]

As soon as it isn't automatically misogyny to hold a viewpoint on "women's issues" other than the standard feminist tenets, I'll agree with you.

Chances are if you hold a view on women's issues other than the standard "feminist tenets" you are a misogynist.

I disagree that the patriarchy still exists, and argue that its historical existence misses out an important half of the equation with regard to duties and expendability of males.
Am I a misogynist.
I do not think anyones genitals should factor into anyones decisions about anything, except potentially things that actually involve procreation or relationships.

[Choronzon]

You already agreed it isn't the common definition.

No I didn't. Laymen and the uninformed's conception of feminism does not determine the common definition anymore than laymen and the uninformed's conception of a scientific "theory" determines the common definition of a scientific theory.

It may well be the academic definition, but academia do not define political movements.

Many feminist political movements use the same definitions.

[Forsakia]

As soon as it isn't automatically misogyny to hold a viewpoint on "women's issues" other than the standard feminist tenets, I'll agree with you.

Chances are if you hold a view on women's issues other than the standard "feminist tenets" you are a misogynist.

I lol'd at "standard" feminist tenets.

[Choronzon]

I disagree that the patriarchy still exists...Am I a misogynist.

No, just misinformed.

[Ostroeuropa]

You already agreed it isn't the common definition.

No I didn't. Laymen and the uninformed's conception of feminism does not determine the common definition anymore than laymen and the uninformed's conception of a scientific "theory" determines the common definition of a scientific theory.

It may well be the academic definition, but academia do not define political movements.

Many feminist political movements use the same definitions.

The difference should be apparent. You do not need to be qualified to have an opinion on politics that matters, so yes, laypersons do define political movements.
Many feminist political movements do not.

[Antiliberalbis]

Feminism.

Root word: Femina-Latin for woman. suffix:ism-means idea, doctrine, practice, or system.

Put them together and you get Feminism-The ideological system of women.

Much shorter and more to the point.

Is the guy who doesn't even know what "liberal" means giving a lecture on definitions?

I gave a summary. The OP is a lecture.

[Ostroeuropa]

I disagree that the patriarchy still exists...Am I a misogynist.

No, just misinformed.

You think
1. (Sociology) a form of social organization in which a male is the head of the family and descent, kinship, and title are traced through the male line
2. (Sociology) any society governed by such a system
3. (Sociology) a system where the males of a family own the females
still exists? (I'm talking about the west here.)

[Forsakia]

You already agreed it isn't the common definition.

No I didn't. Laymen and the uninformed's conception of feminism does not determine the common definition anymore than laymen and the uninformed's conception of a scientific "theory" determines the common definition of a scientific theory.

I think that the 'common' use of the word "theory" matches up with the scientific use of "hypothesis" rather than how scientists use "theory".

[Choronzon]

No, just misinformed.

You think
1. (Sociology) a form of social organization in which a male is the head of the family and descent, kinship, and title are traced through the male line
2. (Sociology) any society governed by such a system
still exists? (I'm talking about the west here.)

These two definitely exist.

Believe it or not I actually know what the words Im using mean (unlike many NSGers). You didn't have to define it for me. I knew what it was when I made my original claim.

[Ashmoria]

the problem with your contest is that *I* dont get to decide who is and who isnt a feminist.

i can look, for example, at sarah palin (chosen for her fame) and say "she is not a feminist"

but when you look at sarah palin objectively she fits any common definition--she is a strong working mother who has reached the top of her profession through her own hard work and determination. she wants no less for her own daughters.

How much of your characterisation of her as a feminist is based on her being a woman?

....

most

a man reaching the top of his field isnt a feminist accomplishment. a man being head of his household isnt a feminist accomplishment.

[Ostroeuropa]

You think
1. (Sociology) a form of social organization in which a male is the head of the family and descent, kinship, and title are traced through the male line
2. (Sociology) any society governed by such a system
still exists? (I'm talking about the west here.)

These two definitely exist.

Believe it or not I actually know what the words Im using mean (unlike many NSGers). You didn't have to define it for me. I knew what it was when I made my original claim.

I can't tell if you are serious or not. Provide any example of number 1 or two. (I'd prefer 2, since number 1 is just sexists being sexists, and isn't a widespread thing.)

[Freelanderness]

You know, the problem with this thread is that one of the fundamental aspects of feminism is choice (e.g: a woman's choice to have an abortion, a woman's choice to have a career, etc) and this means that the movement ends up being extremely diverse, with all kinds of different aspects within it. If you're looking to explore the different aspects of feminism, I can link you to one of my favourite pages Unpacking the F word which takes different viewpoints and quotes pertaining to feminism and woman's issues as a whole and then explores them.

As for Valerie Solanas, she was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, for God's sake! It's just as ridiculous to include her as an exemplar of a feminist, simply because she identified as such, as it would be to include Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot as exemplars of atheism, since they all identified as such. You can't logically antagonise feminism for the actions of the few, just as you can't logically antagonise atheism for the actions of the few.

[Forsakia]

How much of your characterisation of her as a feminist is based on her being a woman?

....

most

a man reaching the top of his field isnt a feminist accomplishment. a man being head of his household isnt a feminist accomplishment.

If a hypothetically misogynist woman reaches the top of her field is that a feminist accomplishment?

Or in a different example, if you read of a politician's career with no knowledge of whether they were male and female, is whether they're feminist or not defined by what's between they're legs?

[Ashmoria]

....

most

a man reaching the top of his field isnt a feminist accomplishment. a man being head of his household isnt a feminist accomplishment.

If a hypothetically misogynist woman reaches the top of her field is that a feminist accomplishment?

Or in a different example, if you read of a politician's career with no knowledge of whether they were male and female, is whether they're feminist or not defined by what's between they're legs?

to some extent YES

the act of reaching high public office is, for a woman, a feminst act.

using that office to deny other women the same career path that she took detracts from that accomplishment but cant erase it.

[Ostroeuropa]

If a hypothetically misogynist woman reaches the top of her field is that a feminist accomplishment?

Or in a different example, if you read of a politician's career with no knowledge of whether they were male and female, is whether they're feminist or not defined by what's between they're legs?

to some extent YES

the act of reaching high public office is, for a woman, a feminst act.

using that office to deny other women the same career path that she took detracts from that accomplishment but cant erase it.

Here is the distinction between gender equalists and feminists.
It is a feminist accomplishment for a sexist woman to become a ceo.
It is not a gender equalist accomplishment.

[Ashmoria]

to some extent YES

the act of reaching high public office is, for a woman, a feminst act.

using that office to deny other women the same career path that she took detracts from that accomplishment but cant erase it.

Here is the distinction between gender equalists and feminists.
It is a feminist accomplishment for a sexist woman to become a ceo.
It is not a gender equalist accomplishment.

why isnt it?

[Ostroeuropa]

Here is the distinction between gender equalists and feminists.
It is a feminist accomplishment for a sexist woman to become a ceo.
It is not a gender equalist accomplishment.

why isnt it?

Because you don't take into account the persons gender.
All it is in a gender equalist perspective is
"A sexist becomes a CEO."
that isn't an accomplishment, it's a hinderence.
By never taking gender into account you'd be suprised how often that ends up being on the side of equality.
Or not suprised, seeing as it's bloody obvious.

[Tahar Joblis]

the problem with your contest is that *I* dont get to decide who is and who isnt a feminist.

That's OK. You still have opinions on the subject. And, more importantly, have opinions about people on the internet.

i can look, for example, at sarah palin (chosen for her fame) and say "she is not a feminist"

but when you look at sarah palin objectively she fits any common definition--she is a strong working mother who has reached the top of her profession through her own hard work and determination. she wants no less for her own daughters.

Ah, but that's not fitting the definition outlined out front, is it? There are many "common" definitions, in terms of use, that don't match the common prescriptive definitions.

so...first of all the person has to define themselves as feminist. ( i dont know if sarah palin does or not)

She has, at least at some points.

THEN we have to look to see if that persons life and words match that definition, how well they do, and whether or not they are feminist enough to outweigh the spots where they fall short. because EVERYONE falls short of a perfect feminism. whatever that would be.

we might also be ready to claim a person as a feminist even if they DONT make that claim for themselves. even if sarah palin says she isnt a feminst (again, i dont know if she does or not) its obvious that she only gives lip service to any non-feminist crap she might say. she has no problem being #1 in any situation.

Interesting.

[Ashmoria]

why isnt it?

Because you don't take into account the persons gender.
All it is in a gender equalist perspective is
"A sexist becomes a CEO."
that isn't an accomplishment, it's a hinderence.
By never taking gender into account you'd be suprised how often that ends up being on the side of equality.
Or not suprised, seeing as it's bloody obvious.

but if all the CEOs are of one gender, isnt that an equalist problem?

[Ostroeuropa]

Because you don't take into account the persons gender.
All it is in a gender equalist perspective is
"A sexist becomes a CEO."
that isn't an accomplishment, it's a hinderence.
By never taking gender into account you'd be suprised how often that ends up being on the side of equality.
Or not suprised, seeing as it's bloody obvious.

but if all the CEOs are of one gender, isnt that an equalist problem?

CEO's being discriminated on based on their genitals. This is an equalist problem.
The actual nature of the genitals required isn't.
It wouldn't be an accomplishment for a terrible candidate to the office of CEO to reach that office just because they go against the trend in an equalist view, that'd be reversing the problem.

[Harkonna]

I would find it hideously insulting if I were 'given' a job based solely on the fact that there aren't enough of my gender in the field, rather than being best qualified for the job.

[Ostroeuropa]

I would find it hideously insulting if I were 'given' a job based solely on the fact that there aren't enough of my gender in the field, rather than being best qualified for the job.

Quite so.
Not only that, it'd be an own goal for the gender.
Since people would see you being shit at your job and think
"Clearly gender Z is shit at this job, just look at them!"

[Ashmoria]

I would find it hideously insulting if I were 'given' a job based solely on the fact that there aren't enough of my gender in the field, rather than being best qualified for the job.

why would you apply for a job that you werent qualified for?

[Ostroeuropa]

I would find it hideously insulting if I were 'given' a job based solely on the fact that there aren't enough of my gender in the field, rather than being best qualified for the job.

why would you apply for a job that you werent qualified for?

BEST qualified.

[Ashmoria]

why would you apply for a job that you werent qualified for?

BEST qualified.

best qualified is a subjective measure.