Anti-science rears its ugly head in Congress

[Ethel mermania]

no they have not, some of them are too new, to say some of them have not been peer reviewed would be fair. to say they have all been discredited, would be false.

New studies? Such as?

There is no link between vaccinations and autism. Every study that has claimed or claims otherwise is false.

let me pick 2 from davids list, the third and forth one about endocrine disruption and autism, and mercury being an endocrine disruptor. please show me them being discredited.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Perhaps I wasn't clear? Endit means you have nothing worth of interest to say to me.

Now kindly go away and bother someone else with your utter nonsense, both about philosophy (of which yours is none, because apriori, it is impractical to claim you have one, when you don't even know your own axioms' shortfalls and actual definitions) rhetoric (which you do not know all that well), and logic, which apparently no-one ever taught you.

Yet you reply. You really are not very good at this are you? Now I suggest you stop thread jacking. Thanks!

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

New studies? Such as?

There is no link between vaccinations and autism. Every study that has claimed or claims otherwise is false.

let me pick 2 from davids list, the third and forth one about endocrine disruption and autism, and mercury being an endocrine disruptor. please show me them being discredited.

Both your studies involve mercury. Yet there is no mercury used in vaccines anymore. Thimerosal is not used in vaccine production.

[Ethel mermania]

let me pick 2 from davids list, the third and forth one about endocrine disruption and autism, and mercury being an endocrine disruptor. please show me them being discredited.

Both your studies involve mercury. Yet there is no mercury used in vaccines anymore. Thimerosal is not used in vaccine production.

unfortunately that is not true, it is still used in multidose vacinnes, notably the flu vacinne.

but that is not my point, you said all his studies had been discredited, and from what you have just shown you did not even look at them.

the mitochondreal studies have not been discredited either.

[Ifreann]

son, hopefully you are joking. i have a boy with autism that best case will wind up in a group home. to make that comment rl anywhere around me would be a remarkably bad idea.

Obviously, it depends on the level of autism and peoples tolerance towards it, but most autistic people that I know...

Unless that's thousands and you've done thorough studies on them, who gives a shit?

[The Emerald Dawn]

Obviously, it depends on the level of autism and peoples tolerance towards it, but most autistic people that I know...

Unless that's thousands and you've done thorough studies on them, who gives a shit?

Doing thorough studies on thousands of people you know is a definition of bias, isn't it?

[Ifreann]

Unless that's thousands and you've done thorough studies on them, who gives a shit?

Doing thorough studies on thousands of people you know is a definition of bias, isn't it?

True. I guess I need more qualifiers for people to fail to meet before their anecdotes can be useful as anything more than just stories.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Both your studies involve mercury. Yet there is no mercury used in vaccines anymore. Thimerosal is not used in vaccine production.

unfortunately that is not true, it is still used in multidose vacinnes, notably the flu vacinne.

but that is not my point, you said all his studies had been discredited, and from what you have just shown you did not even look at them.

the mitochondreal studies have not been discredited either.

Odd then that there has been no change in the numbers after Thimerosal was removed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424

Continuing increases in autism reported to California's developmental services system: mercury in retrograde.

CONCLUSIONS:

The DDS data do not show any recent decrease in autism in California despite the exclusion of more than trace levels of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccines. The DDS data do not support the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal during childhood is a primary cause of autism.

I did actually read the two studies (well the links from the huffpo atricle) and both concluded that there was no clear link and that further research was needed (in the case of the fish study). Can't help but wonder if that is a call for funding...but the research is not relevant to the issue of vaccines. In this case I will admit that I used the term discredited incorrectly. I should have said inconclusive and against the weight of other research....well its not looking good.

I would really rather find the real cause and not put at risk kids by not vaccinating them. Going down the vaccination route is a complete and utter waste of time.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Doing thorough studies on thousands of people you know is a definition of bias, isn't it?

True. I guess I need more qualifiers for people to fail to meet before their anecdotes can be useful as anything more than just stories.

It's a tough one to pull off, but it is so fulfilling when you can.

[Jormengand]

Obviously, it depends on the level of autism and peoples tolerance towards it, but most autistic people that I know...

Unless that's thousands and you've done thorough studies on them, who gives a shit?

Well, you give me a conclusive study of people's personal experiences. Doing so would be extremely unwieldy and mainly pointless.

[Ethel mermania]

unfortunately that is not true, it is still used in multidose vacinnes, notably the flu vacinne.

but that is not my point, you said all his studies had been discredited, and from what you have just shown you did not even look at them.

the mitochondreal studies have not been discredited either.

Odd then that there has been no change in the numbers after Thimerosal was removed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18180424

Continuing increases in autism reported to California's developmental services system: mercury in retrograde.

CONCLUSIONS:

The DDS data do not show any recent decrease in autism in California despite the exclusion of more than trace levels of thimerosal from nearly all childhood vaccines. The DDS data do not support the hypothesis that exposure to thimerosal during childhood is a primary cause of autism.

I did actually read the two studies (well the links from the huffpo atricle) and both concluded that there was no clear link and that further research was needed (in the case of the fish study). Can't help but wonder if that is a call for funding...but the research is not relevant to the issue of vaccines. In this case I will admit that I used the term discredited incorrectly. I should have said inconclusive and against the weight of other research....well its not looking good.

I would really rather find the real cause and not put at risk kids by not vaccinating them. Going down the vaccination route is a complete and utter waste of time.

honestly, i dont think vacination caused my kids autism. though to do it over he never would have gotten the HiB at 1 day. and i would have followed Dr. cave's vaccinne schedule, not the cdc's. as the gardisil fiasco has proved, vacinne testing in the US is neither safe or reliable.

the thing is, we dont know what causes autism, and to just say it is the vacinnes, is just as foolish as to say it isnt the vaccinnes. further research is needed in all area's. the answer should be the truth "we dont know".

the way the cdc goes after folks who disagree with them is mind boogling and tends to make me believe the anti vaccine people, because i just dont see these "experts" making the calm reasoned responses of experts. Boyle approved fudging the data to include data sets that made her look argument look better, even though that cohort was to young to have folks diagnosed autism in it. DSM-IV really frowns upon dxing under 3 with autism, yet she included that group in her numbers. people who want the truth just dont do that, and that is all i am asking for, is the truth.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Odd then that there has been no change in the numbers after Thimerosal was removed.




I did actually read the two studies (well the links from the huffpo atricle) and both concluded that there was no clear link and that further research was needed (in the case of the fish study). Can't help but wonder if that is a call for funding...but the research is not relevant to the issue of vaccines. In this case I will admit that I used the term discredited incorrectly. I should have said inconclusive and against the weight of other research....well its not looking good.

I would really rather find the real cause and not put at risk kids by not vaccinating them. Going down the vaccination route is a complete and utter waste of time.

honestly, i dont think vacination caused my kids autism. though to do it over he never would have gotten the HiB at 1 day. and i would have followed Dr. cave's vaccinne schedule, not the cdc's. as the gardisil fiasco has proved, vacinne testing in the US is neither safe or reliable.

the thing is, we dont know what causes autism, and to just say it is the vacinnes, is just as foolish as to say it isnt the vaccinnes. further research is needed in all area's. the answer should be the truth "we dont know".

the way the cdc goes after folks who disagree with them is mind boogling and tends to make me believe the anti vaccine people, because i just dont see these "experts" making the calm reasoned responses of experts. Boyle approved fudging the data to include data sets that made her look argument look better, even though that cohort was to young to have folks diagnosed autism in it. DSM-IV really frowns upon dxing under 3 with autism, yet she included that group in her numbers. people who want the truth just dont do that, and that is all i am asking for, is the truth.

Didn't the DSM-V fix that?

[Ifreann]

True. I guess I need more qualifiers for people to fail to meet before their anecdotes can be useful as anything more than just stories.

It's a tough one to pull off, but it is so fulfilling when you can.

It occurs to me that there must be some people whose anecdotes are actually things along the lines of "You know, we were doing a meta-analysis last week and we noticed the weirdest correlation..."

---

Unless that's thousands and you've done thorough studies on them, who gives a shit?

Well, you give me a conclusive study of people's personal experiences. Doing so would be extremely unwieldy and mainly pointless.

Why? I'm not the one proposing that we start causing autism in children.

[Ethel mermania]

honestly, i dont think vacination caused my kids autism. though to do it over he never would have gotten the HiB at 1 day. and i would have followed Dr. cave's vaccinne schedule, not the cdc's. as the gardisil fiasco has proved, vacinne testing in the US is neither safe or reliable.

the thing is, we dont know what causes autism, and to just say it is the vacinnes, is just as foolish as to say it isnt the vaccinnes. further research is needed in all area's. the answer should be the truth "we dont know".

the way the cdc goes after folks who disagree with them is mind boogling and tends to make me believe the anti vaccine people, because i just dont see these "experts" making the calm reasoned responses of experts. Boyle approved fudging the data to include data sets that made her look argument look better, even though that cohort was to young to have folks diagnosed autism in it. DSM-IV really frowns upon dxing under 3 with autism, yet she included that group in her numbers. people who want the truth just dont do that, and that is all i am asking for, is the truth.

Didn't the DSM-V fix that?

i havent read it, i know the folkd who wrote the definition for dsm-iv, thought to many people were being given an autism dx (yale child study dx'ed my kid, and they wrote the dsm-iv definitions). my friends are all up in arms about loosing the aspergers dx, but again i havent read it. it isnt going to have an effect on my kid,

right now my interest is in adult care of this exploding population. who is going to be his guardian when i am dead is way more important to me.

[Federated States of South Asia]

-snip-

So are you going to keep BS'ing random stuff until people believe you or are you going to make a point, evidence, explaination and link? There's a reason English teachers tell you to do that, y'know.

First of all if that is all you learned from your teacher, then you were poorly educated. Follow the argument, if you can...

The central point escaped you. Reread and try to understand the point when I dealt with Rubicon; that in order to practice logic you must understand axioms, limits and a-b-c effector chains. In other words, think in paragraphs... not silly cliches with word tricks.

In the case of the subject; "vaccines", It doesn't doesn't matter a DAMN what the American Congress does or doesn't do. People will do what they want to do, and to hell with what some egghead or American Congress-cretin tells them. Simple enough thought to follow? An example is this; the influenza epidemic (in progress) will still kill the pre-calculated number of people it will kill. Self evident because it can be predicted from past knowledge. Some of them will die from the very vaccinations (allergic shock) that the government urges the populace as a whole to take. And some stubborn people will die from the flu, because they won't take the vaccine. That is, as I said pre-calculated, based on past results.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/swine-flu- ... MLDFqwgL2Y

That past death result was underestimated by an ORDER of magnitude by the way in 2009 for H1N1. That is because somebody forgot that microbes through common descent (Darwin) will find a way to feed on us and reproduce. We are prey for microbes just like any other cell colony. That is another simple concept I hope you can follow. We know better how to calculate our expected deaths because we know the H1N1 virus. However; remember the microbes can cull and reproduce millions of times faster than we can. So we will always be behind the latest modification in the microbes' descendents. And people knowing this (maybe you might want to check on your status with regard to this?) are still stupid with regard to how they want to argue that proven fact.

So I regard the whole argument in this thread as simply ignorant of the central issue.

I said "that smart Human beings should stop trying to out-think a working self-correcting system that is two billion years old."

Now I've given already four examples of why Human beings can't out-think a faster self-correcting system. (two just in this thread).

You scream evidence and citation as if it were some !@#$%^&*() term paper.

Sorry I left that CRAP behind decades ago, when I went to work and learned to think for myself.

Most of this 'science' is easily comprehensible to me. It's simple and fundamental. Darwin works. Illogic doesn't.

One thing puzzles me. Logic, rhetoric, structured argument; I do not know why you can't reason this simple stuff out. Explain that one to me.

FSoSA

[Avenio]

I said "that smart Human beings should stop trying to out-think a working self-correcting system that is two billion years old."

If we took that view, smallpox would still be rampant and would kill millions of people per year, if not more.

[Romalae]

I'm sorry, what? Science? No, no, when one is elected to office, it's not about "science," it's about having family values, core Christian virtues, and an artificial love for small businesses.

[Gauthier]

I'm sorry, what? Science? No, no, when one is elected to office, it's not about "science," it's about having family values, core Christian virtues, and an artificial love for small businesses.

Hey, no bigger entertainment than a committee on women's reproductive health staffed entirely by men who think women should be in the kitchen making sammiches and babies!

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Odd then that there has been no change in the numbers after Thimerosal was removed.




I did actually read the two studies (well the links from the huffpo atricle) and both concluded that there was no clear link and that further research was needed (in the case of the fish study). Can't help but wonder if that is a call for funding...but the research is not relevant to the issue of vaccines. In this case I will admit that I used the term discredited incorrectly. I should have said inconclusive and against the weight of other research....well its not looking good.

I would really rather find the real cause and not put at risk kids by not vaccinating them. Going down the vaccination route is a complete and utter waste of time.

honestly, i dont think vacination caused my kids autism. though to do it over he never would have gotten the HiB at 1 day. and i would have followed Dr. cave's vaccinne schedule, not the cdc's. as the gardisil fiasco has proved, vacinne testing in the US is neither safe or reliable.

the thing is, we dont know what causes autism, and to just say it is the vacinnes, is just as foolish as to say it isnt the vaccinnes. further research is needed in all area's. the answer should be the truth "we dont know".

the way the cdc goes after folks who disagree with them is mind boogling and tends to make me believe the anti vaccine people, because i just dont see these "experts" making the calm reasoned responses of experts. Boyle approved fudging the data to include data sets that made her look argument look better, even though that cohort was to young to have folks diagnosed autism in it. DSM-IV really frowns upon dxing under 3 with autism, yet she included that group in her numbers. people who want the truth just dont do that, and that is all i am asking for, is the truth.

Like the way the CDC went after the Committee members in that hearing? Or rather that the anti-vaxxers tend to do what the religious nutcases do...scream at the top of their lungs about some issue, shouting down any kind of reasoned debate? I am quite sure that this is the case more than the rationalists screaming as you indicate.

All relevant studies show that there is no link. All relevant studies that the anti-vaxxers bring to the table are discredited or just plain false.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

I said "that smart Human beings should stop trying to out-think a working self-correcting system that is two billion years old."

If we took that view, smallpox would still be rampant and would kill millions of people per year, if not more.

Don't worry....you'll be harangued for displaying the wrong kind of logic or some such bollocks.

[Tubbsalot]

First of all if that is all you learned from your teacher, then you were poorly educated.

i'm failing to read his post but am calling him stupid anyway!!!! hoo hoo hoo!!!

now i'm going to rub my face all over this frying pan!!!!

[Wikkiwallana]

Such as create vaccines that will force mutations, through selective culling and common descent in the survivor microbes, in the diseases that can kill us. They can go through their generations of survivors faster than we can.

That's not how vaccines work.

[Wikkiwallana]

New studies? Such as?

There is no link between vaccinations and autism. Every study that has claimed or claims otherwise is false.

let me pick 2 from davids list, the third and forth one about endocrine disruption and autism, and mercury being an endocrine disruptor. please show me them being discredited.

Mercury is no longer used in vaccines, hasn't been in decades, and was never used as mercury, yet Autism rates are still accelerating.

Note how tightly it's bound in there.

[Wikkiwallana]

as the gardisil fiasco has proved, vacinne testing in the US is neither safe or reliable.

An update on adverse events was published by the Journal of the American Medical Association and looked at data from the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), covering 12,424 reported adverse events after about 23 million doses of vaccine between June 2006 and December 2008.[42][43] Most adverse effects were minor and not greater than background rates compared with other vaccines, the exception being higher rates for syncope and venous thromboembolic events.[43] Venous thromboembolic events were noted in 56 reports at a rate of 0.2 cases per 100,000 doses distributed and included 19 cases of pulmonary embolism, four of which were fatal.[43] Overall, 772 events (6.2% of the total number of adverse events, but only 0.003% of the total number of doses) were described as serious and included 32 reported deaths (1 per 1,000,000 doses).[43]

That's a fiasco?

[Aggicificicerous]

That's a fiasco?

I wonder how this anti-vaccine crowd would respond to tens, if not hundreds, of millions of people dying to smallpox, measles, and other easy prevented viruses.