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Anti-science rears its ugly head in Congress

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Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f
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Anti-science rears its ugly head in Congress

Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:08 am

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronom ... sense.html

Congress Promotes Dangerous Anti-vaccine Quackery

By Phil Plait

Posted Tuesday, Dec. 4, 2012, at 8:00 AM ET

[Note from the author: This is not my first vaccine rodeo, and I expect some interesting remarks in the comments section. As always, I have copiously linked key phrases in this article to more information backing up my claims. Please read them before commenting.] <--- via link above

Let me be clear right off the bat: Vaccines don’t cause autism.

It’s really that simple. We know they don’t. There have been extensive studies comparing groups of children who have been vaccinated with, say, the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine versus those who have not, and it’s very clear that there is no elevated rate of autism in the vaccinated children.

This simple truth is denied vigorously and vociferously by antivaxxers (those who oppose, usually rabidly, the use of vaccinations that prevent diseases), but they may as well deny the Earth is round and the sky is blue. It’s rock solid fact. They try to blame mercury in vaccines, but we know that mercury has nothing to do with autism; when thimerosal (a mercury compound) was removed from vaccines there was absolutely no change in the increase in autism rates.

I could go on and on. Virtually every claim made by antivaxxers is wrong. And this is a critically important issue; vaccines have literally saved hundreds of millions of lives. They save infants from potentially fatal but preventable diseases like pertussis and the flu.

So why did Congress hold hearings this week promoting crackpot antivax views?

I’m not exaggerating. The Committee on Oversight and Government Reform held a hearing trying to look into the cause and prevention of autism. Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.) launched into a several-minute diatribe (beginning at 12:58 in the video above) that starts off in an Orwellian statement: He claims he’s not antivax. Then he launches into a five-minute speech that promotes long-debunked and clearly incorrect antivax claims, targeting mercury for the most part. Burton has long been an advocate for quackery; for at least a decade he has used Congressional situations like this to promote antiscience.

In the latest hearing, Burton sounds like a crackpot conspiracy theorist, to be honest, saying he knows—better than thousands of scientists who have spent their careers investigating these topics—that thimerosal causes neurological disorders (including autism). He goes on for some time about mercury (as does Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) starting at 21:44 in the video), making it clear he doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about. For example, very few vaccines still use mercury, and the ones that do use it in tiny amounts and in a form that does not accumulate in the body.

Talking about the danger of mercury in vaccines is like talking about the danger of having hydrogen—an explosive element!—in water. It’s nonsense.

I won’t go further into details, because this shameful travesty of truth and medical health goes on for an hour. On Forbes.com, Steven Salzberg wrote a fantastic article about this Congressional farce. I strongly urge you to read it, since Salzberg brings the hammer down on the Congresscritters who think they know more about science than the scientists who actually devote their lives to this topic.

If you get the sense I’m angry, you’re damn right I am. Vaccine save lives, and antivaxxers put those lives in grave danger. These lives include people who are immunocompromised (people on immunosuppressants, for example, recovering from cancer or who have autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis). It also includes infants too young to get vaccinated, who rely on the rest of us getting our shots to increase herd immunity, reducing reservoirs for the infectious diseases to live.

And if you don’t think this has an impact, I urge you—if your heart can stand it—to read the story of Dana McCaffery, a perfect little girl who, at the age of four weeks—four weeks—died of pertussis, a disease she was too young to be vaccinated against and that she might never have contracted if it weren’t for low immunization rates where she lived.

Pertussis. Whooping cough. A disease that for years has been on the decline but has come roaring back—along with measles and other preventable diseases—because people aren’t getting vaccinated in high-enough numbers. I am a parent myself, with a fully-vaccinated daughter, I’ll add, and it breaks my heart when I think of what Dana’s parents, Toni and David McCaffery, went through.

So yes, I am angry. And to see members of Congress repeat the provably wrong and immensely dangerous rhetoric that vaccines cause autism makes my blood boil.

Don’t listen to self-proclaimed experts like Kucinich and Burton who throw out years of painstaking science and replace it with conspiracy theories and gut feelings. Instead, listen to your board-certified doctor. If he or she recommends you get vaccinated, do it. The life you save may be your own, or it may be that of a newborn infant living down the street from you.

And please, write your representative about this. Make a difference. Happily, Burton is not running for re-election, but it's clear there are others willing to take up his mantle.

Science saves lives, just as most certainly antiscience can take them away.

Tip o’ the protein capsid to D.J. Grothe on Twitter.

[Addendum: I want to clarify two things I wrote in the original version of this article. One was to say that studies have compared vaccinated to unvaccinated children; that's true, but the studies were not done with completely unvaccinated children. The linked Dutch study, for example, looked at just the MMR vaccine, and others looked at vaccine timing, total dosages, and other factors. I edited the text to make that more clear. Also, I mistakenly wrote that the MMR vaccine had thimerosal in it; that was simply an error on my part and I have corrected the text. Note that neither of these two points changes my argument at all: vaccines do not cause autism, and this fact has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. My thanks to my friend and fellow skeptic Dr. Steve Novella for pointing these out to me.]


The science is quite clear. There is no link between autism and vaccines. Yet even reasonably intelligent people are convinced otherwise.

To get to this stage though...where this tripe is peddled in a Congressional committee meeting is actually quite scary. Especially when the questioning is highly aggressive and really quite ignorant.

Personally I would have to say that I am terribly disappointed that someone like Kucinich did not call these people on their bullshit but instead gets in on the act and makes the link between mercury and autism in vaccines. Despite no link being proven in an way whatsoever.

What is to be done to put this fallacy to rest and getting back to saving lives? Personally my solution would not be acceptable and most likely illegal but would involve tar and a shitload of feathers.

edit - title re-arranged
Last edited by Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gauntleted Fist » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:15 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:What is to be done to put this fallacy to rest and getting back to saving lives?

Stop electing anti-Science people to Congress. Since that's never going to happen, we're just going to have to elect more pro-science people than anti-science. So maybe we should start mobilizing for 2014 right now because these fucking people are the worst.

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Postby Tubbsalot » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:16 am

I worry that in ten years I won't be able to hear about bad things happening in places without a part of me giving a contemptuous sneer.

There's nothing we can do, because this view has taken hold in a certain moronic segment of the population and it's going to be essentially impossible to remove.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Yet even reasonably intelligent people are convinced otherwise.

I think you're probably giving them too much benefit for what little doubt there is.
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Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f
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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:32 am

Gauntleted Fist wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:What is to be done to put this fallacy to rest and getting back to saving lives?

Stop electing anti-Science people to Congress. Since that's never going to happen, we're just going to have to elect more pro-science people than anti-science. So maybe we should start mobilizing for 2014 right now because these fucking people are the worst.


I don't think its as easy as that...pro science rationalists are unlikely to run for office (given the vitriol currently in politics in the US) and unlikely to win office (given the vitriol currently in politics in the US).

I do think though that a fight back is needed and needed quickly.

Tubbsalot wrote:I worry that in ten years I won't be able to hear about bad things happening in places without a part of me giving a contemptuous sneer.

There's nothing we can do, because this view has taken hold in a certain moronic segment of the population and it's going to be essentially impossible to remove.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Yet even reasonably intelligent people are convinced otherwise.

I think you're probably giving them too much benefit for what little doubt there is.


I've gone past the sneer stage to the tarring stage. These people are dangerous and need to be removed forthwith.
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Postby Gauntleted Fist » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:37 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:I don't think its as easy as that...pro science rationalists are unlikely to run for office (given the vitriol currently in politics in the US) and unlikely to win office (given the vitriol currently in politics in the US).

I did not say anything about the actual doing of such a thing being easy. Describing the process necessary to counteract these people is, however, quite easy. Win more Congress slots than the anti-science people and all victories flow from there naturally.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:I do think though that a fight back is needed and needed quickly.

The fighting started a long time ago.

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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:39 am

Gauntleted Fist wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:I don't think its as easy as that...pro science rationalists are unlikely to run for office (given the vitriol currently in politics in the US) and unlikely to win office (given the vitriol currently in politics in the US).

I did not say anything about the actual doing of such a thing being easy. Describing the process necessary to counteract these people is, however, quite easy. Win more Congress slots than the anti-science people and all victories flow from there naturally.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:I do think though that a fight back is needed and needed quickly.

The fighting started a long time ago.


And we are losing.
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Postby Gauntleted Fist » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:43 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:And we are losing.

Really, what makes you so certain? What laws have been passed recently that have required scientist be strung up and made mockeries of? What laws have been passed that requires science to refute its own findings? What laws have been passed that require of science anything other than ethical behavior and tolerance for competing ideas?

Please link me to them. I will gladly assist in lobbying against their repeal.

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Postby Northern Dominus » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:47 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html

Congress Promotes Dangerous Anti-vaccine Quackery

By Phil Plait

Posted Tuesday, Dec. 4, 2012, at 8:00 AM ET

[Note from the author: This is not my first vaccine rodeo, and I expect some interesting remarks in the comments section. As always, I have copiously linked key phrases in this article to more information backing up my claims. Please read them before commenting.] <--- via link above

Let me be clear right off the bat: Vaccines don’t cause autism.

It’s really that simple. We know they don’t. There have been extensive studies comparing groups of children who have been vaccinated with, say, the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine versus those who have not, and it’s very clear that there is no elevated rate of autism in the vaccinated children.

This simple truth is denied vigorously and vociferously by antivaxxers (those who oppose, usually rabidly, the use of vaccinations that prevent diseases), but they may as well deny the Earth is round and the sky is blue. It’s rock solid fact. They try to blame mercury in vaccines, but we know that mercury has nothing to do with autism; when thimerosal (a mercury compound) was removed from vaccines there was absolutely no change in the increase in autism rates.

I could go on and on. Virtually every claim made by antivaxxers is wrong. And this is a critically important issue; vaccines have literally saved hundreds of millions of lives. They save infants from potentially fatal but preventable diseases like pertussis and the flu.

So why did Congress hold hearings this week promoting crackpot antivax views?

I’m not exaggerating. The Committee on Oversight and Government Reform held a hearing trying to look into the cause and prevention of autism. Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.) launched into a several-minute diatribe (beginning at 12:58 in the video above) that starts off in an Orwellian statement: He claims he’s not antivax. Then he launches into a five-minute speech that promotes long-debunked and clearly incorrect antivax claims, targeting mercury for the most part. Burton has long been an advocate for quackery; for at least a decade he has used Congressional situations like this to promote antiscience.

In the latest hearing, Burton sounds like a crackpot conspiracy theorist, to be honest, saying he knows—better than thousands of scientists who have spent their careers investigating these topics—that thimerosal causes neurological disorders (including autism). He goes on for some time about mercury (as does Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) starting at 21:44 in the video), making it clear he doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about. For example, very few vaccines still use mercury, and the ones that do use it in tiny amounts and in a form that does not accumulate in the body.

Talking about the danger of mercury in vaccines is like talking about the danger of having hydrogen—an explosive element!—in water. It’s nonsense.

I won’t go further into details, because this shameful travesty of truth and medical health goes on for an hour. On Forbes.com, Steven Salzberg wrote a fantastic article about this Congressional farce. I strongly urge you to read it, since Salzberg brings the hammer down on the Congresscritters who think they know more about science than the scientists who actually devote their lives to this topic.

If you get the sense I’m angry, you’re damn right I am. Vaccine save lives, and antivaxxers put those lives in grave danger. These lives include people who are immunocompromised (people on immunosuppressants, for example, recovering from cancer or who have autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis). It also includes infants too young to get vaccinated, who rely on the rest of us getting our shots to increase herd immunity, reducing reservoirs for the infectious diseases to live.

And if you don’t think this has an impact, I urge you—if your heart can stand it—to read the story of Dana McCaffery, a perfect little girl who, at the age of four weeks—four weeks—died of pertussis, a disease she was too young to be vaccinated against and that she might never have contracted if it weren’t for low immunization rates where she lived.

Pertussis. Whooping cough. A disease that for years has been on the decline but has come roaring back—along with measles and other preventable diseases—because people aren’t getting vaccinated in high-enough numbers. I am a parent myself, with a fully-vaccinated daughter, I’ll add, and it breaks my heart when I think of what Dana’s parents, Toni and David McCaffery, went through.

So yes, I am angry. And to see members of Congress repeat the provably wrong and immensely dangerous rhetoric that vaccines cause autism makes my blood boil.

Don’t listen to self-proclaimed experts like Kucinich and Burton who throw out years of painstaking science and replace it with conspiracy theories and gut feelings. Instead, listen to your board-certified doctor. If he or she recommends you get vaccinated, do it. The life you save may be your own, or it may be that of a newborn infant living down the street from you.

And please, write your representative about this. Make a difference. Happily, Burton is not running for re-election, but it's clear there are others willing to take up his mantle.

Science saves lives, just as most certainly antiscience can take them away.

Tip o’ the protein capsid to D.J. Grothe on Twitter.

[Addendum: I want to clarify two things I wrote in the original version of this article. One was to say that studies have compared vaccinated to unvaccinated children; that's true, but the studies were not done with completely unvaccinated children. The linked Dutch study, for example, looked at just the MMR vaccine, and others looked at vaccine timing, total dosages, and other factors. I edited the text to make that more clear. Also, I mistakenly wrote that the MMR vaccine had thimerosal in it; that was simply an error on my part and I have corrected the text. Note that neither of these two points changes my argument at all: vaccines do not cause autism, and this fact has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. My thanks to my friend and fellow skeptic Dr. Steve Novella for pointing these out to me.]


The science is quite clear. There is no link between autism and vaccines. Yet even reasonably intelligent people are convinced otherwise.

To get to this stage though...where this tripe is peddled in a Congressional committee meeting is actually quite scary. Especially when the questioning is highly aggressive and really quite ignorant.

Personally I would have to say that I am terribly disappointed that someone like Kucinich did not call these people on their bullshit but instead gets in on the act and makes the link between mercury and autism in vaccines. Despite no link being proven in an way whatsoever.

What is to be done to put this fallacy to rest and getting back to saving lives? Personally my solution would not be acceptable and most likely illegal but would involve tar and a shitload of feathers.

edit - title re-arranged
Since when did Jenny McCarthy get a sex change and infiltrate congress to spread her message of insanity?

But really, are we surprised by this? This is coming from a member of the same party which vehemently denies global climate change despite mounting evidence to the contrary and surreptitiously or blatantly supports the teaching of religious dogma in public schools as scientific "Fact", so of course this sort of drivel comes from Dan Burton. It's the same sort of excuse of "I'm not a racist, but..." before launching into a bigoted rant about any minority group.

Since the Randian wingnuts have been brought out of the fringes and into center stage courtesy of the American Taliban the rest of us have had to put up with this insanity, and frankly it's way beyond amusing and going into dangerous territory now. If only the majority of us who see bullshit for what it is would rise up, we could have had gotten mandatory vaccines for every school-age children by now, and screened out anyone who doesn't want them by forcing them to home-school instead of allowing their potential plague incubators interact with the children of responsible people.
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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:48 am

Gauntleted Fist wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:And we are losing.

Really, what makes you so certain? What laws have been passed recently that have required scientist be strung up and made mockeries of? What laws have been passed that requires science to refute its own findings? What laws have been passed that require of science anything other than ethical behavior and tolerance for competing ideas?

Please link me to them. I will gladly assist in lobbying against their repeal.


yeah that's right. I certainly said all that. :roll:

And given your post above this one you agree. So really all you want now is a fight for some bizarre reason. Not playing that game thanks.


Edit -

The fact this (the article I posted) has happened is a pretty fucking clear indication that there is war on and we are losing this battle. Look the politicization of science in the public sector...we see science committees staffed with people who say shit like "rape is ok because the female body will self abort" or schools teaching creationism/intelligent design as science. The reduction in grants for research at universities as well as the reduction on spending on science in government (except for war)...all these factors are a clear attack on science and as it is still happening and there does not seem to be a voice against...or rather the voices against are shouted down or ignored...is pretty indicative that there is a war on science. Look at climate change...look at how the science is presented...you have one side that is doing science on limited budgets and the opposition is a collection of groups that are bankrolled by big business who are able to spend to make their "point". There is no science on the opposition side...just some amazing and very clever marketing disguised as science.

Laws...well I'd say that laws that allow creationism/intelligent design to be taught as science are not a good thing. And there have been quite a few court cases regarding that right?
Last edited by Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gauntleted Fist » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:51 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:yeah that's right. I certainly said all that. :roll:

Well then what the hell are we "fighting and losing"? Perception? I can't help that stupid people believe stupid things. The only thing I can do is vote for the person I think will produce the results I desire, and lobby at the local, state, and federal level to make this happen. Be it through education policy, technology policy, etc.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:And given your post above this one you agree. So really all you want now is a fight for some bizarre reason. Not playing that game thanks.

I don't want to fight, I want to understand what fight we are supposedly losing. Because I'm heavily involved in this fight, and losing is not an option.
Last edited by Gauntleted Fist on Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Postby Risottia » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:02 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:This simple truth is denied vigorously and vociferously by antivaxxers (those who oppose, usually rabidly,

I lol'd.

Really, wtf. Faith healing, anti-vaccine campaigns... people are misunderstanding the right of anyone to an opinion of his own for all opinions being equally valid.
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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:02 am

Gauntleted Fist wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:yeah that's right. I certainly said all that. :roll:

Well then what the hell are we "fighting and losing"? Perception? I can't help that stupid people believe stupid things. The only thing I can do is vote for the person I think will produce the results I desire, and lobby at the local, state, and federal level to make this happen. Be it through education policy, technology policy, etc.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:And given your post above this one you agree. So really all you want now is a fight for some bizarre reason. Not playing that game thanks.

I don't want to fight, I want to understand what fight we are supposedly losing. Because I'm heavily involved in this fight, and losing is not an option.


Sorry...see my edit above...

And yes losing is not an option.
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Postby Tubbsalot » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:04 am

Risottia wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:This simple truth is denied vigorously and vociferously by antivaxxers (those who oppose, usually rabidly,

I lol'd.

Thank god you pointed that out.
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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:05 am

Risottia wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:This simple truth is denied vigorously and vociferously by antivaxxers (those who oppose, usually rabidly,

I lol'd.

Really, wtf. Faith healing, anti-vaccine campaigns... people are misunderstanding the right of anyone to an opinion of his own for all opinions being equally valid.


Gravity is only a theory!
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Postby Northern Dominus » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:12 am

Risottia wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:This simple truth is denied vigorously and vociferously by antivaxxers (those who oppose, usually rabidly,

I lol'd.

Really, wtf. Faith healing, anti-vaccine campaigns... people are misunderstanding the right of anyone to an opinion of his own for all opinions being equally valid.
Just wait, for their next trick they're going to try and mandate that high school students learn about creationism under a false banne....

Wait what Ris....they've done that already?...it's called WHAT?!.....goddammit.
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Postby Stovokor » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:14 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:
Risottia wrote:I lol'd.

Really, wtf. Faith healing, anti-vaccine campaigns... people are misunderstanding the right of anyone to an opinion of his own for all opinions being equally valid.


Gravity is only a theory!


Even though it's meant as a joke, I can almost hear the asinine telling me that, in that very special tone of voice which makes you want to strangle them.
Last edited by Stovokor on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GCMG » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:15 am

So, anti-science is the term for making claims scientifically proven wrong?

Vaccines are great. Small pox isn't.
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Postby Risottia » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:17 am

Stovokor wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:
Gravity is only a theory!


Even though it's meant as a joke, I can almost hear the asinine telling me that, in that very special tone of voice which makes you want to strangle them.


And what irks me is the "only", btw.
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Postby Varijnland » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:18 am

Anti-science? *shudder*

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Postby Gauntleted Fist » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:20 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:The fact this (the article I posted) has happened is a pretty fucking clear indication that there is war on and we are losing this battle.

Because a nut in one house of Congress is anti-vaccine? Is he capable of drumming up support for this supposed anti-vaccine law? Because surely we are not going to be self-defeating here and waste our time on fighting a shadow of a bill that doesn't exist.


Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Look the politicization of science in the public sector...we see science committees staffed with people who say shit like "rape is ok because the female body will self abort" or schools teaching creationism/intelligent design as science.

We also have school teaching evolution as science, and men and women who believe that science should be left to its own devices (Within certain ethical limits) who are completely prepared to fight back against this sort of anti-science rhetoric on these very same committees. By the very act of bringing this to a committee, both sides are allowed to be heard on this. It's not just one man standing on the floor shouting "Hey science is bad!"

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:The reduction in grants for research at universities as well as the reduction on spending on science in government (except for war)...all these factors are a clear attack on science and as it is still happening and there does not seem to be a voice against...or rather the voices against are shouted down or ignored...is pretty indicative that there is a war on science.

This is really not as one-sided as you make it out to be. We may lose university funding, but we stave off people starving to death because we protected social security cuts (Or food stamps or what have you). Once again this is not a one man show. If we lose a battle or two here and there, then maybe we should look to see where else we are winning to understand how important that loss was. I'm not saying I'm particularly happy with university funding being lowered, but I'd certainly take less university funding and more families not going hungry to a point.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Look at climate change...look at how the science is presented...you have one side that is doing science on limited budgets and the opposition is a collection of groups that are bankrolled by big business who are able to spend to make their "point". There is no science on the opposition side...just some amazing and very clever marketing disguised as science.

"Big business" is not all evil and out to get science as you make it out to be. There are plenty of large corporations that have a vested interest in the continued development of science and technology. That some do not is of course a part of the no one individual problem. We cannot devolve into tyranny and suppress the viewpoints of our fellows, even if they are stupid and damaging. That would be sinking to their level.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Laws...well I'd say that laws that allow creationism/intelligent design to be taught as science are not a good thing. And there have been quite a few court cases regarding that right?

I'm not aware of any recently, but I would not doubt it.

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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:20 am

Risottia wrote:
Stovokor wrote:
Even though it's meant as a joke, I can almost hear the asinine telling me that, in that very special tone of voice which makes you want to strangle them.


And what irks me is the "only", btw.


Yeah...that really annoys the shit outta me as well.
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Postby Damanucus » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:21 am

Seriously? Are we going to return to Georgian or Victorian medicine or something like that? (Excuse the exaggerated paranoia.)

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Postby Call to power » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:28 am

Congress is for discussing the problems and shizz that people have. If a set amount of people have a fear of Zombies then I hold that the legislature should discuss it otherwise they are not doing their jobs as representatives.

And the tern 'anti-science' annoys me, it seems to be a term used to politicize science which is a bad thing. But then that is 'American political discourse' for you.

Let me be clear right off the bat: Vaccines don’t cause autism.


Says the man who has never seen the Vaccines in concert.
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Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:30 am

Gauntleted Fist wrote:
Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:The fact this (the article I posted) has happened is a pretty fucking clear indication that there is war on and we are losing this battle.

Because a nut in one house of Congress is anti-vaccine? Is he capable of drumming up support for this supposed anti-vaccine law? Because surely we are not going to be self-defeating here and waste our time on fighting a shadow of a bill that doesn't exist.


Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Look the politicization of science in the public sector...we see science committees staffed with people who say shit like "rape is ok because the female body will self abort" or schools teaching creationism/intelligent design as science.

We also have school teaching evolution as science, and men and women who believe that science should be left to its own devices (Within certain ethical limits) who are completely prepared to fight back against this sort of anti-science rhetoric on these very same committees. By the very act of bringing this to a committee, both sides are allowed to be heard on this. It's not just one man standing on the floor shouting "Hey science is bad!"

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:The reduction in grants for research at universities as well as the reduction on spending on science in government (except for war)...all these factors are a clear attack on science and as it is still happening and there does not seem to be a voice against...or rather the voices against are shouted down or ignored...is pretty indicative that there is a war on science.

This is really not as one-sided as you make it out to be. We may lose university funding, but we stave off people starving to death because we protected social security cuts (Or food stamps or what have you). Once again this is not a one man show. If we lose a battle or two here and there, then maybe we should look to see where else we are winning to understand how important that loss was. I'm not saying I'm particularly happy with university funding being lowered, but I'd certainly take less university funding and more families not going hungry to a point.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Look at climate change...look at how the science is presented...you have one side that is doing science on limited budgets and the opposition is a collection of groups that are bankrolled by big business who are able to spend to make their "point". There is no science on the opposition side...just some amazing and very clever marketing disguised as science.

"Big business" is not all evil and out to get science as you make it out to be. There are plenty of large corporations that have a vested interest in the continued development of science and technology. That some do not is of course a part of the no one individual problem. We cannot devolve into tyranny and suppress the viewpoints of our fellows, even if they are stupid and damaging. That would be sinking to their level.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Laws...well I'd say that laws that allow creationism/intelligent design to be taught as science are not a good thing. And there have been quite a few court cases regarding that right?

I'm not aware of any recently, but I would not doubt it.


Not just one. On that committee alone there were at least three.

Yes indeed we do teach evolution. A factual and observable event. What we also have are people who are doing just as you say - "Hey science is bad!". Not only that but they also give a reason...God did it all. And when you have predominantly religious orientated legislative organisation which is voted on by people who are also religious..well...the voice of reason is oft ignored.

No that is a fallacious point because there is nothing to stop both from happening. You can have social programmes (health care etc) and still teach science. It is not an either or situation between feeding people or science. Other countries seem to be doing that quite well. Of course they also do not have imperialist aspirations either.

It is profit driven so matters of morality (good/evil) have no place in big business.
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Postby Gauntleted Fist » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:37 am

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Not just one. On that committee alone there were at least three.

Focusing on the noise, not the signal, here.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Yes indeed we do teach evolution. A factual and observable event. What we also have are people who are doing just as you say - "Hey science is bad!". Not only that but they also give a reason...God did it all. And when you have predominantly religious orientated legislative organisation which is voted on by people who are also religious..well...the voice of reason is oft ignored.

Is it really? Because I'm pretty fucking sure we didn't lose the last election. We might not have won it as big as we could have, but we didn't lose. Unless you want to argue Democrats are anti-science.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:No that is a fallacious point because there is nothing to stop both from happening. You can have social programmes (health care etc) and still teach science. It is not an either or situation between feeding people or science.

No, it is, in fact, not an either or situation of funding science or feeding people, but it is a trading game. We don't get to just get our way with everything we want, because there are other people with grievances with the way things are being done. Whether or not they are wrong (They are.), doesn't change that they still do, in fact, elect people to Congress and have a not-insignificant influence over what law gets passed and how. My suggestion for what is to be done about this state of affairs is perfectly reasonable, and easy to conceptualize.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:Other countries seem to be doing that quite well. Of course they also do not have imperialist aspirations either.

Well, as American exceptionalist are so fond of saying, we are not fucking other countries. More's the pity.

Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f wrote:It is profit driven so matters of morality (good/evil) have no place in big business.

That we insist upon justifying the pursuit of science through moral methods instead of demonstrating the derived benefits from a reasoned standpoint is also a problem that needs to be dealt with. Defining ethical limits becomes murkier, but I believe it can be done.
Last edited by Gauntleted Fist on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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