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by Pope Joan » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:29 pm
by Sobaeg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:44 pm
by The Joseon Dynasty » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:49 pm
Sobaeg wrote:The basics of life are free to those who don't work until such time as they want to work in some countries. The reason it doesn't work in America is because of Americans.
by Moving Forward Inc » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:55 pm
Sobaeg wrote:The basics of life are free to those who don't work until such time as they want to work in some countries. The reason it doesn't work in America is because of Americans.
by Sobaeg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:59 pm
Moving Forward Inc wrote:Sobaeg wrote:The basics of life are free to those who don't work until such time as they want to work in some countries. The reason it doesn't work in America is because of Americans.
The idea that you can make the basics of life free is insane.
For something to be free, it has to come at the cost of another.
That is what scarcity is supposed to be about.
You want to make the basics of life free for Americans who don't work: now, who should receive the bill?
And, lol, free for people who don't work?
Wouldn't people just stop working until the system collapses from protests against the lack of incentive to work harder?
I mean, to earn the basics of life for an unskilled worker, takes several hours every week.
If it was free, work just wouldn't be worth it for the unskilled.
by Dongolia » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:04 pm
Sobaeg wrote:Because of Insurance and Credit and market forces, blue collar and white-collar goods and services are overly inflated.
by Meridiani Planum » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:07 pm
Trez-Nem wrote:What do you think? Why wouldn't it work?
by Moving Forward Inc » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:21 pm
Sobaeg wrote:Moving Forward Inc wrote:The idea that you can make the basics of life free is insane.
For something to be free, it has to come at the cost of another.
That is what scarcity is supposed to be about.
You want to make the basics of life free for Americans who don't work: now, who should receive the bill?
And, lol, free for people who don't work?
Wouldn't people just stop working until the system collapses from protests against the lack of incentive to work harder?
I mean, to earn the basics of life for an unskilled worker, takes several hours every week.
If it was free, work just wouldn't be worth it for the unskilled.
I don't really care if Americans solve this problem, I hope they can return to their greatness… but it doesn't really bother me. The fact is, it exists, open your eyes, and ask yourself why Americans cant have it… you will come to the same conclusion that I just did… because of Americans.
by Crogach » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:21 pm
by Moving Forward Inc » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:24 pm
Sobaeg wrote:Meridiani Planum wrote:
It would work just fine if Santa Claus was real.
Otherwise, those basic necessities are coming from someone, and probably through organized theft.
Maybe it would "work", but I'm more interested in the ethical issues.
Dude, are you not reading anything, it works, countries do it, just not America
by Sobaeg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:26 pm
Moving Forward Inc wrote:Sobaeg wrote:
I don't really care if Americans solve this problem, I hope they can return to their greatness… but it doesn't really bother me. The fact is, it exists, open your eyes, and ask yourself why Americans cant have it… you will come to the same conclusion that I just did… because of Americans.
Do I have to repeat myself?
Who will pay the bill, and how will the collapse of the system be prevented?
And seriously, how is it a problem that some people can't afford the basics of life?
Maybe they aren't worth it?
by Disserbia » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:28 pm
by Sobaeg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:31 pm
Crogach wrote:As far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with having a guaranteed national income that provides enough for a single person to rent an apartment and live a fairly spartan working- to lower middle-class life; it would certainly simplify our welfare system and solve the "welfare queen" problem (whether you define that problem to be the existence of people who don't belong receiving benefits milking the system for extras or the use of pejorative terms and ugly stereotypes to justify throwing the poor out in the cold). From where I stand that sort of reform would effectively make welfare like Social Security (something that comes with being an American citizen rather than a handout that can be used to play wedge politics down the line) and that would be good for everyone.
The only problem I see with this is that there's no way to do this in the US without dramatic tax increases and spending cuts elsewhere. As it stands now, the US spends approximately $878 billion on old-age pensions, $422 billion on welfare, and $900 or so billion on defense. If we cut the defense budget by 30 percent, cut federal pensions in half, and redirect all current welfare spending, then that gives us $270B+$422B+$439B = $1.131 trillion in savings, while a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation (237 million people aged 18 or older multiplied by $22500 per person per year, or 112.5% of the poverty line) gives us expenditures of $5.333 trillion right off the bat. That's a $4.2 trillion hole that would have to be filled, and the current total revenue of the US government is somewhere in the neighborhood of $5.5 trillion; we'd need to increase revenues by 80 percent or so in order to cover the costs of a guaranteed annual income.
I'd be damn curious to see the CBO or someone else do a study on possible means of phasing in a guaranteed annual income over a period of years; it's an idea that I think would be awesome to have, but somebody with a lot more free time, a lot more training, and a lot better numbers than I have would need to make the math work before it could go anywhere.
by Moving Forward Inc » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:31 pm
by Sobaeg » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:32 pm
Disserbia wrote:Some of a safety net is necessary, but too much of one leads to lack of motivation because people when people feel like they are working for the welfare of others and their work isn't benefiting themselves as much as it should they become less motivated.
by Crogach » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:33 pm
Disserbia wrote:Some of a safety net is necessary, but too much of one leads to lack of motivation because people when people feel like they are working for the welfare of others and their work isn't benefiting themselves as much as it should they become less motivated.
Sobaeg wrote:Crogach wrote:As far as I'm concerned there's nothing wrong with having a guaranteed national income that provides enough for a single person to rent an apartment and live a fairly spartan working- to lower middle-class life; it would certainly simplify our welfare system and solve the "welfare queen" problem (whether you define that problem to be the existence of people who don't belong receiving benefits milking the system for extras or the use of pejorative terms and ugly stereotypes to justify throwing the poor out in the cold). From where I stand that sort of reform would effectively make welfare like Social Security (something that comes with being an American citizen rather than a handout that can be used to play wedge politics down the line) and that would be good for everyone.
The only problem I see with this is that there's no way to do this in the US without dramatic tax increases and spending cuts elsewhere. As it stands now, the US spends approximately $878 billion on old-age pensions, $422 billion on welfare, and $900 or so billion on defense. If we cut the defense budget by 30 percent, cut federal pensions in half, and redirect all current welfare spending, then that gives us $270B+$422B+$439B = $1.131 trillion in savings, while a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation (237 million people aged 18 or older multiplied by $22500 per person per year, or 112.5% of the poverty line) gives us expenditures of $5.333 trillion right off the bat. That's a $4.2 trillion hole that would have to be filled, and the current total revenue of the US government is somewhere in the neighborhood of $5.5 trillion; we'd need to increase revenues by 80 percent or so in order to cover the costs of a guaranteed annual income.
I'd be damn curious to see the CBO or someone else do a study on possible means of phasing in a guaranteed annual income over a period of years; it's an idea that I think would be awesome to have, but somebody with a lot more free time, a lot more training, and a lot better numbers than I have would need to make the math work before it could go anywhere.
The challenge with the USA is that an apple is not an apple. Because of Insurance and Credit and market forces, blue collar and white-collar goods and services are overly inflated.
An example of this is property in Florida, what did people think it was worth 5 years ago… where they right? Ask the same question about other basic services, food, medical and ask the same question.
by Dongolia » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:29 am
Sobaeg wrote:Because of Insurance and Credit and market forces, blue collar and white-collar goods and services are overly inflated.
Sobaeg wrote:Because of Insurance and Credit and market forces, blue collar and white-collar goods and services are overly inflated.
by Moving Forward Inc » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:32 am
Sobaeg wrote:Moving Forward Inc wrote:Do I have to repeat myself?
Who will pay the bill, and how will the collapse of the system be prevented?
And seriously, how is it a problem that some people can't afford the basics of life?
Maybe they aren't worth it?
How old are you? Seriously, go and take the list of Countries we discussed, find out who pays the bill, then come back to the discussion.
by Crogach » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:33 am
by Disserbia » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:35 am
Sobaeg wrote:The basics of life are free to those who don't work until such time as they want to work in some countries. The reason it doesn't work in America is because of Americans.
by Moving Forward Inc » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:35 am
by Disserbia » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:36 am
Sobaeg wrote:Disserbia wrote:Some of a safety net is necessary, but too much of one leads to lack of motivation because people when people feel like they are working for the welfare of others and their work isn't benefiting themselves as much as it should they become less motivated.
Countries that do this have found that the number who are not motivated to work is less than in some European countries that do not have the support system.
by Dongolia » Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:38 am
Crogach wrote:Dongolia wrote:
Also, this reads like a string of buzzwords that you read on the internet. It has absolutely no basis in fact.
I was wondering whether or not there was a source for that; I know we had a bad bubble that popped in 2006-2007, but I doubt that there has been as much systematic, reversible inflation as Sobaeg's contending here.
Sobaeg wrote:Because of Insurance and Credit and market forces, blue collar and white-collar goods and services are overly inflated.
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