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Gun control. (or, why carrying a gun is a civilised act.)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should people be allowed to carry guns or other weapons?

No. Guns should be left in control of the state.
50
15%
Yes. Guns should be carried as a means of self defence.
103
30%
To an extent. Everyone walking around with rocket launchers is a recipe for disaster.
132
39%
Non projectile weapons only (knives, swords, knuckledusters)
18
5%
People should be unarmed
38
11%
 
Total votes : 341

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Renegade Island
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Gun control. (or, why carrying a gun is a civilised act.)

Postby Renegade Island » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:52 am

Lots of opinions float around about the topic of gun control (and, we can extend this to other weapons as well.)

So, here is my reasoning as to why carrying a gun is a civilised act.

There are 2 methods of persuasion. One is through reasoning, and the other is through force (direct or implied.)
To persuade someone through reasoning you must present an argument that convinces the other party that you are correct.
To persuade someone through force, you must either:

a) Physically use force upon them to beat them into submission,
b) Use the implied threat of force upon them to scare them into submission.

Where do guns come into this?

In a society without guns, a young and strong 20 year old male can use physical intimidation as a tool for persuading an old lady to give him her valuables. The balance of force is uneven.

In a society with guns, the playing field is levelled. The 20 year old male can pull a gun on the lady to threaten her. However, the old lady, also carrying a gun, cannot be persuaded by force, because she also has lethal force at her disposal.

The only method of persuasion left is reason, because no person has a monopoly of force on another.

Thus, carrying a gun is a civilised act.

This principle applies in several countries like Switzerland where gun ownership is pretty much mandatory and crime rate are very low.

So, what do you think? Is carrying a gun a civilised act? Should we submit the monopoly of force to the State (who may or may not come to our rescue in time?)

The floor, as they say, is open.
Last edited by Renegade Island on Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Khadgar
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Postby Khadgar » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:54 am

So your argument is thus:

God created men, Sam Colt made them equal.

Brevity is the soul of wit. Now, look at crime statistics for countries with free access to guns, then look at statistics for countries without access to guns. Let me know which is actually safer. If you're going to make an argument, research it. I shan't do it for you.

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Renegade Island
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Postby Renegade Island » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:01 am

Khadgar wrote:So your argument is thus:

God created men, Sam Colt made them equal.

Brevity is the soul of wit. Now, look at crime statistics for countries with free access to guns, then look at statistics for countries without access to guns. Let me know which is actually safer. If you're going to make an argument, research it. I shan't do it for you.



Canada and Switzerland have relatively low crime statistics and free access to guns.

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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:03 am

Because an old lady will be able to outdraw a 20 year old thug.

She ain't no Wyatt Earp.

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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:04 am

Renegade Island wrote:
Khadgar wrote:So your argument is thus:

God created men, Sam Colt made them equal.

Brevity is the soul of wit. Now, look at crime statistics for countries with free access to guns, then look at statistics for countries without access to guns. Let me know which is actually safer. If you're going to make an argument, research it. I shan't do it for you.



Canada and Switzerland have relatively low crime statistics and free access to guns.

Don't spout nonsense. Swiss access to guns is by no means "free".

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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:04 am

Esternial wrote:Because an old lady will be able to outdraw a 20 year old thug.

She ain't no Wyatt Earp.

Question is, where'd the thug get the gun in the first place?

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Shard_Head
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Postby Shard_Head » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:05 am

What makes you think that those who would wish to exploit an imbalance of force would not adapt to an escalation in force by their targets?

How do you feel about regulation so that everyone can only have the exact same degree of firepower?

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Renegade Island
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Postby Renegade Island » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:05 am

Laerod wrote:
Renegade Island wrote:

Canada and Switzerland have relatively low crime statistics and free access to guns.

Don't spout nonsense. Swiss access to guns is by no means "free".


Any adult can apply.

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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:06 am

Laerod wrote:
Esternial wrote:Because an old lady will be able to outdraw a 20 year old thug.

She ain't no Wyatt Earp.

Question is, where'd the thug get the gun in the first place?

Weapon stores, without even needing a license because everyone's allowed to carry ofc.

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Khadgar
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Postby Khadgar » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:07 am

Renegade Island wrote:
Khadgar wrote:So your argument is thus:

God created men, Sam Colt made them equal.

Brevity is the soul of wit. Now, look at crime statistics for countries with free access to guns, then look at statistics for countries without access to guns. Let me know which is actually safer. If you're going to make an argument, research it. I shan't do it for you.



Canada and Switzerland have relatively low crime statistics and free access to guns.


Numbers, statistics, sources. Gimme.

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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:10 am

Renegade Island wrote:
Laerod wrote:Don't spout nonsense. Swiss access to guns is by no means "free".


Any adult can apply.

You lie.

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Renegade Island
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Postby Renegade Island » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:10 am

Shard_Head wrote:What makes you think that those who would wish to exploit an imbalance of force would not adapt to an escalation in force by their targets?

How do you feel about regulation so that everyone can only have the exact same degree of firepower?


Yes, escalation is a major problem with this argument.

Regulation is a potential solution, but then the question becomes who gets access to the biggest guns? Because then they have the monopoly of force.

I'm a firm believer that crime is a cultural issue, not an issue of what weapons people have.

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Demirysis
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Postby Demirysis » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:11 am

Khadgar wrote:So your argument is thus:

God created men, Sam Colt made them equal.

Brevity is the soul of wit. Now, look at crime statistics for countries with free access to guns, then look at statistics for countries without access to guns. Let me know which is actually safer. If you're going to make an argument, research it. I shan't do it for you.


Glasgow, Scotland is or was the murder capital of Europe. Guns are strictly controlled in the UK.
Last edited by Demirysis on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Shard_Head
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Postby Shard_Head » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:12 am

Renegade Island wrote:
Regulation is a potential solution, but then the question becomes who gets access to the biggest guns?


Why would anyone have access to better weaponry than another if equal force is your goal? Surely the government would have to supply all citizens with a standard weapon and seek to remove anything which would tip the balance in favour of one group. I'm not sure how else you would enact it.

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Renegade Island
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Postby Renegade Island » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:12 am

Khadgar wrote:
Renegade Island wrote:

Canada and Switzerland have relatively low crime statistics and free access to guns.


Numbers, statistics, sources. Gimme.


http://www.novatownhall.com/blog/2007/0 ... _crime.php

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Avarnica
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Postby Avarnica » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:14 am

Any and all weapons should be used in self defense.
Damn it Romney!

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Renegade Island
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Postby Renegade Island » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:14 am

Laerod wrote:
Renegade Island wrote:
Any adult can apply.

You lie.


Specify?

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Zweite Alaje
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Postby Zweite Alaje » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:15 am

As a person raised in a family that owns many guns, I can personally attest to their benefit.
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ReVampire Kingdom
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Postby ReVampire Kingdom » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:16 am

IN my book 95% of humans are Idiots. Idiots with guns are not a good thing. Also For the low crime rates. there are countries with strict gun laws and low crime rates just as there are ones with little gun control and low crime rates. Idiots are the reason for crimes and giving them guns is horribly bad.

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Renegade Island
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Postby Renegade Island » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:16 am

Shard_Head wrote:
Renegade Island wrote:
Regulation is a potential solution, but then the question becomes who gets access to the biggest guns?


Why would anyone have access to better weaponry than another if equal force is your goal? Surely the government would have to supply all citizens with a standard weapon and seek to remove anything which would tip the balance in favour of one group. I'm not sure how else you would enact it.


The problem with that is it gives the government monopoly of force.

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Divair
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Postby Divair » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:16 am

Zweite Alaje wrote:As a person raised in a family that owns many guns, I can personally attest to their benefit.

You were attacked and then shot the robber in self-defense?

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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:17 am

Renegade Island wrote:


Specify?

Specify what? Your claim is false.

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Laerod
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Postby Laerod » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:17 am

Renegade Island wrote:
Shard_Head wrote:
Why would anyone have access to better weaponry than another if equal force is your goal? Surely the government would have to supply all citizens with a standard weapon and seek to remove anything which would tip the balance in favour of one group. I'm not sure how else you would enact it.


The problem with that is it gives the government monopoly of force.

If you've seen your fellow man compared to your fellow government, you wouldn't mind so much.

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Shard_Head
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Postby Shard_Head » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:18 am

Renegade Island wrote:
Shard_Head wrote:
Why would anyone have access to better weaponry than another if equal force is your goal? Surely the government would have to supply all citizens with a standard weapon and seek to remove anything which would tip the balance in favour of one group. I'm not sure how else you would enact it.


The problem with that is it gives the government monopoly of force.


How do you intend to bring about equality of firepower?

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Frisivisia
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Postby Frisivisia » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:19 am

Renegade Island wrote:
Shard_Head wrote:
Why would anyone have access to better weaponry than another if equal force is your goal? Surely the government would have to supply all citizens with a standard weapon and seek to remove anything which would tip the balance in favour of one group. I'm not sure how else you would enact it.


The problem with that is it gives the government monopoly of force.

The government already has a de facto monopoly on force.
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