Why I think religion is inherently bad. [POLL ADDED]

[Vitaphone Racing]

Why do people insist on comparing science to religion? Why do people continue to act like science and religion are even remotely similar to each other in concept?

People do "science" every day, regardless of whether or not you "believe" in it. It's sort of comparable to not believeing in walking or breathing.

[Khodoristan]

God is. That's it, he just is. There's no other human way to describe God other than he is...being. I would say that God does not care that you don't believe in him (if I did, I'd be lying), but belief or not, I could say the same thing for God as I could for science. He is a natural force. A force science cannot explain.

Science explains what is real. If science can't explain god, then he may as well not exist, or you have defined him in such a way that you're just being annoying about it, like Bluth.

He is God, after all...

[Tlaceceyaya]

Science explains what is real. If science can't explain god, then he may as well not exist, or you have defined him in such a way that you're just being annoying about it, like Bluth.

He is God, after all...

The god of special pleading?

[Euronion]

Considering most of science is theoretical *gasp*, I would say...most people, actually.

Scientific theory is based on observation. We cannot quantify gravity the way we can quantify water, so we explain it using the best technology and knowledge we have available. But, unlike God, gravity doesn't care whether you believe in it or not: having faith in gravity doesn't qualify it. It's a natural force.

Yet you completely disregard the fact that gravity is present under the same circumstances at all times unless acted on by another force. God is not like this at all. God is unfalsifiable. I am going to use an argument I've seen a lot of atheists use, but one that I find useful. I have a T-Rex that can shoot lasers out of his eyes and speaks ten different languages fluently, he also has wings that allow him to go at the speed of an airplane if he wishes. You see though, he is very scared of people, he only trusts me, so what he does is he stays invisible until there is no one around anymore, he has this ability where he phases into another dimension so you can walk right through him. He cannot be detected by any kind of scientific instrument and he is aware of any cameras or recording devices in the area and will hide until they are gone. My T-Rex is unfalsifiable because you have no proof that he doesn't exist and I have no proof he does exist. I believe he exists, you do not believe he exists. There is no way you can prove to me he does not exist because scientific instruments cannot detect him in any way. There is no way you can prove him or disprove him.

[Obamacult]

Check this out, there is some wisdom in the Bible, it is an oldie, but a goodie even if you don't believe in God. Jesus said some pretty cool stuff that everyone should read. Like "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be the children of God" Now who can criticize that? Also, there are some pretty cool quotes in other books like Ezekiel 33-13 about redemption and hypocrisy, read it. I wouldn't mind hearing any other passages that folks think are profound and important. And remember this is one of the oldest and most read books in history. Don't fight it, but try to understand it from an objective clear minded view. I would also like to hear other people's favorite passages in the Koran or other religious works. Maybe someone can start a thread designed to increase awareness of the good in certain religions. I mean they must have some positives that even non-believers like myself can appreciate. It is better to build bridges with other cultures rather than put up fences and point swords.

Just saying.

No thank you. I can live without hearing rehashed philosophies that are simply applied to a being that has no evidence.

Many would considered that view close-minded and bigoted. Like I said, I want to hear what all groups have to say, I believe that their is some positives to be learned among all religions and non-religious persuasions. What is the book or teacher that you look to for guidance, Marx? Can you recommend one for me to read?

[Sentinel XV]

Scientific theory is based on observation. We cannot quantify gravity the way we can quantify water, so we explain it using the best technology and knowledge we have available. But, unlike God, gravity doesn't care whether you believe in it or not: having faith in gravity doesn't qualify it. It's a natural force.

God is. That's it, he just is. There's no other human way to describe God other than he is...being. I would say that God does not care that you don't believe in him (if I did, I'd be lying), but belief or not, I could say the same thing for God as I could for science. He is a natural force. A force science cannot explain.

I really can't argue against you because the existence of a God is an unfalsifiable claim, and we could go back and forth until we both die arguing about who is in the right here. As for gravity, it is the least well understood of the four fundamental forces. That being said, its based on observations, as are all other phenomena, there's nothing else to base it off of really (or anything else for that matter). And, taking that into light, I would rather put my trust in a system (science) that allows for change and progress. In short, I would rather be given the questions and search for the answers, rather than be given the answers without regard for the questions.

@Euronion: Read above. Also, that being said, we observe varying levels of gravity across the universe. For example, the gravity on the moon is only a sixth of the observed gravity on Earth. It is not at all present under the same "circumstances", even in our local part of the solar system. This, in itself, is more proof for gravity than what we have for the existence of any god.

[Mavorpen]

"stuff" is a very broad term. I know that in the UK, where half of the population is atheist, a court recently ruled that a woman did not have the right to wear a cross on her neck to work because it was offensive to others. Also in the UK, a business owner was told that displaying Bible verses in his shop was illegal.

If they don't have the right, they don't have the right.

There seems to be a corroboration between a large atheist populations and lack of civil rights and liberties.

Bullshit.

North Korea, China, the USSR, Vietnam, The Reign of Terror in Revolutionary France, Myanmar, you can dig back further and more extensively if you wish. In the USSR churches were burned, priests were quartered and killed, and everyone was forced to practice atheism.

North Korea, China, the USSR, Vietnam, the Reign of Terror, were all very religious. In the USSR churches were also reinstated when it benefited Stalin. His attacks on the church were political.

Perhaps atheists are the least trusted group in the US because you complain about EVERYTHING.

Sorry, not seeing many Atheists screaming, "THERE B WAR ON ATHEISM!"

"EVERYTHING is imbued with religion", "ALL references of God must be purged", "anyone who is not atheist is stupid", "people who believe in religion have a disease", "all public displays of religion or religious affiliation should be banned", the list of quotes from everyday atheists goes on and on and on.

The list of imaginary quotes goes on and on. So horrifying.

Then you have the Freedom from Religion Foundation going around and funding billboards around Christmas time with a nativity background and with such messages as "You know it's a myth, accept the truth." These are all reasons why Americans get pissed at atheists, this is why the religious get angry, this is what irritates us.

Those billboards were specifically targeted to atheists who were also preachers.

Every religion, no matter how . . . anything, has one common factor; there is a deity.

Hahahahahahahaha. No.

The justification used to convert one person from one religion to another is "your worshiping the wrong God, our God is the true God, you have merely been mislead." Atheism however, goes around saying, "you're all wrong, there is no God, you are all going to turn into dust, you have no soul, there is no proof, I don't care what you have to say, you are wrong, I am right, if you cannot see that, you are stupid."

An ideology cannot physically say something, nor does it say most of that. Atheism is lack of belief in God/gods.

When I created a thread polling whether atheists and/or agnostics supported a movement of extreme secularism to the point of stripping away the rights of the religious and mockery of one's views to the point of violence and persecution of the religious, most atheists said yes. I was shocked by this as I thought most atheists were not advocating going that far.

Why the fuck do you keep pulling this bullshit out of your ass? Your poll was misleading.

When you go around telling people that they are all wrong, and that you alone, that your point of view and only your point of view is correct and call all others stupid for holding that view, call on extreme legislation against those of religious belief, are intolerant to those of religious belief, tell the religious that no matter what they do, they are all doomed to poof into nothingness, not only is insensitive to those of religious beliefs everywhere, it is also childish.

Which is why atheists aren't doing this on a mass scale.

Every atheist I have spoken to except for my History Teacher, I regard as a child, not because of their belief that there is no God, but simply the way they have managed to insult me, my religion, my beliefs, call me names, and say that I have a disease or mental illness seems to me the way a egotistical pimple-faced 14 year old behaves and does not reflect the behavior of an adult functioning member of society.

Back this up.

Then you have the audacity, after all this, to turn around and whine about how you are not accepted and not trusted. Treat people how you would like to be treated, I don't go around telling all atheists they are wrong, mentally incapacitated, stupid, diseased, or that they should be exterminated and in return I expect the same treatment. I have no quarrels with Atheism, believe in God or don't believe in God, that is your choice, I personally choose to believe in God, that is my choice, I do not attack you for your choice, you do not attack me for mine.

More whining that isn't backed up. Okay.

As for your other points, I am a devout Catholic and I believe in evolution, so do practically all the Christians I know. Science and religion are, as I like to say, like the gateway to the west. Though separate at the bottom, they join together at the top.

No they don't join at the top.

I trust I do not need to provide the various and numerous sources that show China's discrimination, North Korea's abuses, or any other totalitarian or authoritarian regime, nor do I think you require sources to confirm that Revolutionary France was pretty bad. The quotes I listed by atheists are not unique to one case, you can find many of these people on NS or by doing a quick Google Search. My thread on religious intolerance can be found here on NS as well.

What quotes?

Leave me alone, keep your hands of my rights, and then maybe I'll start trusting you to protect them.

Try basing your posts in reality and we'll take you seriously.

[Mavorpen]

Scientific theory is based on observation. We cannot quantify gravity the way we can quantify water, so we explain it using the best technology and knowledge we have available. But, unlike God, gravity doesn't care whether you believe in it or not: having faith in gravity doesn't qualify it. It's a natural force.

Yet you completely disregard the fact that gravity is present under the same circumstances at all times unless acted on by another force. God is not like this at all. God is unfalsifiable. I am going to use an argument I've seen a lot of atheists use, but one that I find useful. I have a T-Rex that can shoot lasers out of his eyes and speaks ten different languages fluently, he also has wings that allow him to go at the speed of an airplane if he wishes. You see though, he is very scared of people, he only trusts me, so what he does is he stays invisible until there is no one around anymore, he has this ability where he phases into another dimension so you can walk right through him. He cannot be detected by any kind of scientific instrument and he is aware of any cameras or recording devices in the area and will hide until they are gone. My T-Rex is unfalsifiable because you have no proof that he doesn't exist and I have no proof he does exist. I believe he exists, you do not believe he exists. There is no way you can prove to me he does not exist because scientific instruments cannot detect him in any way. There is no way you can prove him or disprove him.

So God doesn't exist. Alright.

[Khodoristan]

He is God, after all...

The god of special pleading?

Snarky, bravo. Show me how your infinite wisdom deems God nonexistent.

[Tlaceceyaya]

The god of special pleading?

Snarky, bravo. Show me how your infinite wisdom deems God nonexistent.

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence of god? If not, he may as well be nonexistent.

[Khodoristan]

Snarky, bravo. Show me how your infinite wisdom deems God nonexistent.

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence of god? If not, he may as well be nonexistent.

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence otherwise? If not, he may as well be real.

[Mavorpen]

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence of god? If not, he may as well be nonexistent.

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence otherwise? If not, he may as well be real.

Not how it works. You cannot prove that demons do not exist, yet we have stopped believing that they cause diseases. Rather, we have determined that bacteria cause most diseases.

[Sentinel XV]

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence of god? If not, he may as well be nonexistent.

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence otherwise? If not, he may as well be real.

Don't even come in here with Pascal's Wager. That was long ago proved to be a hilariously inadequate argument.
The existence or nonexistence of a God is not an argument that we can falsify or prove. It's an impossible argument.

[Euronion]

Yet you completely disregard the fact that gravity is present under the same circumstances at all times unless acted on by another force. God is not like this at all. God is unfalsifiable. I am going to use an argument I've seen a lot of atheists use, but one that I find useful. I have a T-Rex that can shoot lasers out of his eyes and speaks ten different languages fluently, he also has wings that allow him to go at the speed of an airplane if he wishes. You see though, he is very scared of people, he only trusts me, so what he does is he stays invisible until there is no one around anymore, he has this ability where he phases into another dimension so you can walk right through him. He cannot be detected by any kind of scientific instrument and he is aware of any cameras or recording devices in the area and will hide until they are gone. My T-Rex is unfalsifiable because you have no proof that he doesn't exist and I have no proof he does exist. I believe he exists, you do not believe he exists. There is no way you can prove to me he does not exist because scientific instruments cannot detect him in any way. There is no way you can prove him or disprove him.

So God doesn't exist. Alright.

You completely missed the point, backing up my claims from my previous post, instead of letting me believe in God you just merely state that God doesn't exist. I was saying that God is unfalsifiable, I believe God exists for my own reasons, I have seen not one shred of evidence that disproves God's existence.

[Mavorpen]

You completely missed the point, backing up my claims from my previous post, instead of letting me believe in God you just merely state that God doesn't exist. I was saying that God is unfalsifiable, I believe God exists for my own reasons, I have seen not one shred of evidence that disproves God's existence.

So God doesn't exist. Alright.

[Sentinel XV]

God is. That's it, he just is. There's no other human way to describe God other than he is...being. I would say that God does not care that you don't believe in him (if I did, I'd be lying), but belief or not, I could say the same thing for God as I could for science. He is a natural force. A force science cannot explain.

I really can't argue against you because the existence of a God is an unfalsifiable claim, and we could go back and forth until we both die arguing about who is in the right here. As for gravity, it is the least well understood of the four fundamental forces. That being said, its based on observations, as are all other phenomena, there's nothing else to base it off of really (or anything else for that matter). And, taking that into light, I would rather put my trust in a system (science) that allows for change and progress. In short, I would rather be given the questions and search for the answers, rather than be given the answers without regard for the questions.

@Euronion: Read above. Also, that being said, we observe varying levels of gravity across the universe. For example, the gravity on the moon is only a sixth of the observed gravity on Earth. It is not at all present under the same "circumstances", even in our local part of the solar system. This, in itself, is more proof for gravity than what we have for the existence of any god.

[Tlaceceyaya]

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence of god? If not, he may as well be nonexistent.

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence otherwise? If not, he may as well be real.

Not how it works.
If I claim that I have a dragon in my garage, but the garage door is closed and you can't see it, it is irrational to assume that it is there. If you ask for me to open the door to prove it, and I do, you'll see that it's not there. So I claim that it's invisible. You ask to go inside and touch it. I claim that it is incorporeal. You ask to scan the garage with equipment to detect anything out of the ordinary. I claim that no equipment can detect it.
It is neither logical nor rational to assume that I have a dragon. It is logical and rational to assume that I do not have a dragon.

Russel's teapot.

[Khodoristan]

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence otherwise? If not, he may as well be real.

Not how it works. You cannot prove that demons do not exist, yet we have stopped believing that they cause diseases. Rather, we have determined that bacteria cause most diseases.

Oh, man. Wow, cop out of the year.

Bacteria causing disease proves nothing other than humans get sick. Again, I will admit I base my beliefs on faith. Evidence of the immaterial is a categorical error.

[The New World Oceania]

Can you - or anyone - provide any evidence otherwise? If not, he may as well be real.

Don't even come in here with Pascal's Wager. That was long ago proved to be a hilariously inadequate argument.
The existence or nonexistence of a God is not an argument that we can falsify or prove. It's an impossible argument.

But verily, the hell with the people laughing at Pascal's Wager- how could the accused not laugh once it works out for them?

None the less, he said nothing of PW, but rather of existence. Both of them are working towards a Nihilistic conclusion.

[Sentinel XV]

So God doesn't exist. Alright.

You completely missed the point, backing up my claims from my previous post, instead of letting me believe in God you just merely state that God doesn't exist. I was saying that God is unfalsifiable, I believe God exists for my own reasons, I have seen not one shred of evidence that disproves God's existence.

I'm fine with you believing that god exists. That is fine, and harmless, and you have every right to do so: I respect that. But it is when you tell me that god exists definitively, that I take issue. You back up your claims with unfalsifiable evidence that is flawed at the core, and generally make for bad debate. For example, "I have seen not one shred of evidence that disproves God's existence" is not an argument that can stand up to any measure of logic. That's not how debate works.

[Khodoristan]

You completely missed the point, backing up my claims from my previous post, instead of letting me believe in God you just merely state that God doesn't exist. I was saying that God is unfalsifiable, I believe God exists for my own reasons, I have seen not one shred of evidence that disproves God's existence.

I'm fine with you believing that god exists. That is fine, and harmless, and you have every right to do so: I respect that. But it is when you tell me that god exists definitively, that I take issue. You back up your claims with unfalsifiable evidence that is flawed at the core, and generally make for bad debate. For example, "I have seen not one shred of evidence that disproves God's existence" is not an argument that can stand up to any measure of logic. That's not how debate works.

I have not seen any evidence that God does not exist.

[Sentinel XV]

Don't even come in here with Pascal's Wager. That was long ago proved to be a hilariously inadequate argument.
The existence or nonexistence of a God is not an argument that we can falsify or prove. It's an impossible argument.

But verily, the hell with the people laughing at Pascal's Wager- how could the accused not laugh once it works out for them?

None the less, he said nothing of PW, but rather of existence. Both of them are working towards a Nihilistic conclusion.

Actually, his argument was the premise for Pascal's Wager. If we cannot prove he exists, and cannot prove he does not exist:

he may as well be real.

That is Pascal's Wager, cut and dry.

[Mavorpen]

Not how it works. You cannot prove that demons do not exist, yet we have stopped believing that they cause diseases. Rather, we have determined that bacteria cause most diseases.

Oh, man. Wow, cop out of the year.

Bacteria causing disease proves nothing other than humans get sick. Again, I will admit I base my beliefs on faith. Evidence of the immaterial is a categorical error.

Way to completely miss the point.

You can claim that God "caused" the universe to appear, but then you'd be making a claim that makes as much sense as claiming bacteria doesn't cause diseases, and it's demons instead.

[Sentinel XV]

I'm fine with you believing that god exists. That is fine, and harmless, and you have every right to do so: I respect that. But it is when you tell me that god exists definitively, that I take issue. You back up your claims with unfalsifiable evidence that is flawed at the core, and generally make for bad debate. For example, "I have seen not one shred of evidence that disproves God's existence" is not an argument that can stand up to any measure of logic. That's not how debate works.

I have not seen any evidence that God does not exist.

And I have not seen any claiming he does. We can do this ad infinitum. That is why arguments like this have no room in respectable debate.

[Mavorpen]

I have not seen any evidence that God does not exist.

So God doesn't exist. Mmkay.