The war on Christmas

[Neo Art]

Again, your inability to adhere to the central tenants of your faith is your problem, not mine.

Nothing unchristian about attacking an argument. Nice try, though.

And your assumption was still manichean, unfounded, and silly.

So adoreable, when the flail their little fists, and stomp their little feet, and get all red faced.

*pinches cheeks* you're just so CUTE.

Completely hypocritical and utterly ignorant about your own so called faith, but really really CUTE.

[Charellia]

I just watched an episode of Bill O'Riley last night about the war on christmas and how the media and the government should use the term "Holiday" insted of Christmas, is that a good thing? As to not offend people of other religions/ethnic groups should the government restrict the names of holidays?I also found a cuple of interesting articals as well
http://mnsho.wordpress.com/2012/11/16/the-war-on-christmas/
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1868542,00.html


So whats your opinion? Is the war on christmas BS or realistic?
and sorry if this topic isnt well put together

I didn't have to read past Bill O'Riley to get the gist of this topic. This like most other information originating from Fox "News" is nothing but the typical whining of the far right when things don't go exactly their way. Sometimes political correctness goes to far but the secularization of public holiday names is not one of them.

[Capitolinium]

Nothing unchristian about attacking an argument. Nice try, though.

And your assumption was still manichean, unfounded, and silly.

So adoreable, when the flail their little fists, and stomp their little feet, and get all red faced.

*pinches cheeks* you're just so CUTE.

Completely hypocritical and utterly ignorant about your own so called faith, but really really CUTE.

Let me see if I can captivate the gist of this...

Capitolinium: "For example, when I buy a present for my wife on our anniversary..."
Neo Art: "What? Do you, like, beat her up the other 364 days of the year?"
Capitolinium: "Do you always make such dramatically polar, baseless, and ridiculous assumptions?"
Neo Art: "F-U! You're no Christian!"
Capitolinium: "Actually, there's nothing unchristian about calling your assumption dramatically polar, baseless, and ridiculous, because it was."
Neo Art: "You big hypocrite meanie!"

Wow. Just... wow.

If it makes you feel better, I'm really, really, really really sorry. Or just go tell the mods that, somehow, I ad-hom'd you.

[Koshka]

I just guessed, but I figured Los Angeles class would come close.

And decorate with this pic...

Nice...

[Bojikami]

Just a couple of butthurt conservatives trying to start something.

[Northern Sunrise Islands]

I thought it was War on Christmas Island or something. But why would they want to kill Sonic's birthplace?

[The Emerald Dawn]

I thought it was War on Christmas Island or something. But why would they want to kill Sonic's birthplace?

Because SEGA refuses to.

[Neo Art]

I just watched an episode of Bill O'Riley last night about the war on christmas and how the media and the government should use the term "Holiday" insted of Christmas, is that a good thing? As to not offend people of other religions/ethnic groups should the government restrict the names of holidays?I also found a cuple of interesting articals as well
http://mnsho.wordpress.com/2012/11/16/the-war-on-christmas/
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1868542,00.html


So whats your opinion? Is the war on christmas BS or realistic?
and sorry if this topic isnt well put together

I didn't have to read past Bill O'Riley to get the gist of this topic. This like most other information originating from Fox "News" is nothing but the typical whining of the far right when things don't go exactly their way. Sometimes political correctness goes to far but the secularization of public holiday names is not one of them.

I get what you're saying, I really do. And it's fringe bullshit like this:

If there is any war on the inner, religious meaning of Christmas, it is the war between rational, thinking humans and the blind, slave mentality of religion.

and this

2. People are idiots if they get offended by being wished a merry or happy or good [insert any religious and/or traditional holiday or festival], even if they're not celebrating it themselves. I mean, grow the fuck up, put a lid on your obnoxious religious pride, and welcome a fucking greeting.

That gives a rest of us all a bad name. Because on one side you have one group yelling "merry christmas merry christmas merry FUCKING CHRISTMAS! I said merry christmas you motherfuckers! I'm trying to be fucking NICE. You will SIT THERE AND LET ME BE NICE TO YOU and if you have a problem with that you're a liberal faggot kiddie fucker!" and on the other side pretentious dickery wandering around like we're six fucking years old again, pulling on Suzy's pigtails and running away. Where the height of intellectual discourse consists of just being fucking annoying, which is the teeniest tiny sliver on the "worthwhile discourse scale" above wandering around public with your dick hanging out of your pants. Where it forces other non believes to not only simultaniously try to fight the fight of "no, we're not bad people, we just don't believe like you believe" and also go "oh, yeah, that guy, well, yeah, he's a dick, but we're not with him, we swear"

Which leaves the great masses in the middle wanting to send both sides upstairs to their rooms, and don't come back down again until you're ready to act like fucking adults.

Here's the whole thing about "political correctness". The whole thing about "political correctness" is just the recognition that hey, words have meanings. And maybe not always the meanings you think they have, at least not to all the same people, all the time.

See, her'es the real deal. For the most part, us non christian liberals aren't all that particularly uspet about someone telling us "merry christmas". I like the sentiment. Thank you for wishing me well. I'm not bothered by YOU, holiday happiness wisher. I'm vaguelly miffed at the cultural circumstances in which you operate.

You see, for the most part, us non christian folks just want to keep on keeping on. The days are short, the nights are cold, and we're just trying to fucking get by. We don't care about "waging a war" on christmas. We really don't fucking care what you believe, and frankly, we would just appreciate the same courtesy. All this "political correctness" goes is to say hey, when you say merry christmas, you're making assumptions about that person. And you may mean well, and it may be an honest, friendly gesture, but you're still making assumptions. Assumptions that aren't true for literally millions of people in this country. And if you really meant well, if you really, truly, wanted to wish me well, as a good christian, as a good person, is it really necessary to make that assumption? And, in fact, doesn't that assumption take away from that message a bit?

That's all "pc" wants to be, thats its only goal. To educate you. To inform you. To make you aware of what your words ACTUALLY mean. That when you say "merry christmas" it might be a nice gesture, it might be a symbol of good will. But it's also a particular assumption about the person you're saying it to, and is that an asusmption you REALLY should be making? Or does that presumption lose something? Is it REALLY come across that way? Or does it read as "have a good day, provided you believe like me". Does it raise that tiny specter of "I'm only saying this because I think you and I think alike"

All "politically correct" tries to do is inform you of the fact that if peace love and harmony is your goal, you can do that WITHOUT making assumptions about me. What you DO with that information is your choice. If your choice is to say "you're right, I will do so in a way that doesn't make assumptions" that's great. If your choice is "No! I will CONTINUE to do this and you WILL FUCKING LIKE IT!" then ok, that's your choice too.

But if, armed with this information, you still choose to make that choice, then let's drop this pretention that it's all about love and harmony, and realize what it actually is. You just want to be a dick.

Which is why the right wing I think is so furiously up in arms about this "war on christmas" bullshit. Because it does two things. One, it asks them to recognize that there are non christians in this world, something it is dead set against doing (how's that landslide shaping up WIllard?), and second, it's part of the broader "PC culture war". "PC" isn't about TELLING you what you can say, it's merely informing you of how your words are taken in the broader culture. What you DO with that knowledge is up to you. But it disarms the right wing defense. They claim it's a "war on christmas" but what it really is, is a war against their ability to throw their hands in the air, shrug their shoulders and go "what, I'm just saying Merry Christmas here, what's the problem with that? You like christmas, like a good american, don't you?"

The left wing "war on christmas" is actually just another brach on the right wing's attack on cultural education. Because once people actually LEARN what their words mean, LEARN how they're taken, LEARN the cultural interpretation of their meanings, then they don't get to hide behind the right wing's favorite weapon, ignorance.

Because when you educate people on the actual meaning of what they actual say, you take away their ability to hide behind fake ignorance, and leave them with only two options. Be a decent human being, or be a dick. And you can be a dick, if you want, that's your choice.

But that also means you have to own up to the social consequences of it. And if continuing to say "merry christmas" long after someone's explained that this is really presumptuous of your target recipient, even though you might mean well is a concious choice to say "I recognize that may actions may be insensitive, and I just don't care", and it's also a concious choice to deal with the ramifications of being perceived that way.

And if the next question is "what ramifications of being perceived that way" well, ask President Romney. Oh. That's right. You can't. He lost.

[Neo Art]

Capitolinium: "For example, when I buy a present for my wife on our anniversary..."
Neo Art: "What? Do you, like, beat her up the other 364 days of the year?"
Capitolinium: "Do you always make such dramatically polar, baseless, and ridiculous assumptions?"
Neo Art: "F-U! You're no Christian!"

Is your wife's spouse's name "Christian"? Is this some 50 shades of grey thing? I'm not really into that shit.

Otherwise you're mixing your metaphor, and have quite lost the plot. Try again.

[Libertarian California]

Increasingly its just a Western Capitalist holiday though, tbh...

So what's the problem?

[Euronion]

I don't see how using the name of a holiday is "offensive" to other religions. Can you not cope with the fact that other people disagree with your views? I am not offended when someone mentions Hanukkah or Ramadan, I do not see why people should be offended by the spirit of Christmas, Christmas Decorations, or anything of that sort.

[GCMG]

My understanding is this.

The War on Christmas refers to the habit of creating more embracing versions of the greeting, "Merry Christmas." The reasoning is that Christmas is a Christian holiday.

I reject this on the basis that Christmas stopped being a Christian holiday the moment someone said, "I'll teach you the real meaning of Christmas." Even that has secularised itself into being about "giving" and "joy" and stuff like that. I also point out that without A Christmas Carol and Coca Cola, Christmas wouldn't be Christmas as we know it. So, again, not a Christian holiday nor even a Christian popularised one.

Christmas can embrace elements of Jesus and whatnot but that's for people who want to do that. Anyone who honestly feels a need to secularise Christmas is out of touch when you look at the facts.

[The Stormcloak Rebels]

Why can't people just call it Mithras' Birthday like it really is?

[Sedikal]

I think it's dumb to say it to just say it but if your saying it to someone and you don't know what they celebrate happy holidays is acceptible. The government uses it because (I'm guessing) to show that they don't show favoritism to one group of people. Bu I mean if you are setting up a Christmas tree and just start calling it a " holiday tree" that just makes you a douch.

[Roan Cara]

This is tired and stupid on all sides. Winter has looooong been a time when many cultures/peoples have found a time, usually in the darkest and coldest and most dreary part of winter, to celebrate something. Most often having more than enough harvest to see them through the winter, or having survived another year, etc. Basically I think, due to the human need to cheer ones self up in a dark cold other wise depressing time of year... so Christians took a Pagan day and added their tradition to it, so did African Americans who created Kwanza. The Jews have theirs, etc. etc. Solstice celebrations have been around a looong time and I am sure there others even older. My feeling is, what does it hurt any of us to let people be happy and celebrate with those they love and care about? lights, food, family... what is it hurting? who cares what it is called? Happy Chrismahanakwanzafestivusoltice everyone.

[Cannot think of a name]

:roll: This is tired and stupid on all sides.

Here's the problem. This:

Winter has looooong been a time when many cultures/peoples have found a time, usually in the darkest and coldest and most dreary part of winter, to celebrate something. Most often having more than enough harvest to see them through the winter, or having survived another year, etc. Basically I think, due to the human need to cheer ones self up in a dark cold other wise depressing time of year... so Christians took a Pagan day and added their tradition to it, so did African Americans who created Kwanza. The Jews have theirs, etc. etc. Solstice celebrations have been around a looong time and I am sure there others even older. My feeling is, what does it hurt any of us to let people be happy and celebrate with those they love and care about? lights, food, family... what is it hurting? who cares what it is called? Happy Chrismahanakwanzafestivusoltice everyone.

Is one of the sides. There is only one other side, and that's the one that thinks there is a war on Christmas.

That's it. So who are you scolding with your 'a curse on both your houses'?

[Neo Art]

:roll: This is tired and stupid on all sides.

Here's the problem. This:

Winter has looooong been a time when many cultures/peoples have found a time, usually in the darkest and coldest and most dreary part of winter, to celebrate something. Most often having more than enough harvest to see them through the winter, or having survived another year, etc. Basically I think, due to the human need to cheer ones self up in a dark cold other wise depressing time of year... so Christians took a Pagan day and added their tradition to it, so did African Americans who created Kwanza. The Jews have theirs, etc. etc. Solstice celebrations have been around a looong time and I am sure there others even older. My feeling is, what does it hurt any of us to let people be happy and celebrate with those they love and care about? lights, food, family... what is it hurting? who cares what it is called? Happy Chrismahanakwanzafestivusoltice everyone.

Is one of the sides. There is only one other side, and that's the one that thinks there is a war on Christmas.

That's it. So who are you scolding with your 'a curse on both your houses'?

Everyone not in the "magical moderate middle" duh.

You know, the one you have to pretend exists. Otherwise where else can you get your sense of moral superiority, without flouncing into a conversation, announcing "can't we all just get along?" and flounce out, smug in the knowledge that you're so much better than the rabble, leaving everyone else to go "who the fuck was she just talking to?"

You have to pretend there are two sides, and they're both dumb, otherwise where else can you feel intellectually superior by denouncing both? actual conversation? Heaven fucking forbid.

[Roan Cara]

Here's the problem. This:

Is one of the sides. There is only one other side, and that's the one that thinks there is a war on Christmas.

That's it. So who are you scolding with your 'a curse on both your houses'?

Everyone not in the "magical moderate middle" duh.

You know, the one you have to pretend exists. Otherwise where else can you get your sense of moral superiority, without flouncing into a conversation, announcing "can't we all just get along?" and flounce out, smug in the knowledge that you're so much better than the rabble, leaving everyone else to go "who the fuck was she just talking to?"

You have to pretend there are two sides, and they're both dumb, otherwise where else can you feel intellectually superior by denouncing both? actual conversation? Heaven fucking forbid.

I am perfectly content to flounce out in the knowledge that I am definitely better than you at the very least on all possible levels.

[Nua Corda]

Calm your tits, yo. I'm referring to a general trend the United States as a whole, not assaulting one person. Isn't it rather pompous and self-righteous of you to twist my words and assault me in this way? Furthermore, you're committing a free association fallacy by assuming that because I oppose the use of underpaid child labor, I both hate the child labors and hate non-americans. That's a rather ignorant statement, right there.

You can make a sweeping generalization but I can't? That hardly sounds fair. I admit I was a little testy, for which I apologize.

Granted, I did generalize a bit beyond what was perhaps fair, but I'd say there's a marked distinction between a generalization fallacy and a free association attack. I personally believe that people would be better off with less useless stuff, and that gifts should be meaningful, thoughtful and useful, not some polyurethane crap off the Walmart shelf. I'd much rather have a nice sturdy pair of boots that I'll get plenty of use out of for years than thirty-odd gegaws that will break or become outdated anyway. Call me crazy, but I prefer the utilitarian lifestyle (with a few exceptions, such as computers and my rifles). Which is all my personal opinion, of course.

[Srboslavija]

From Dec 1st I make the point to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, especially those who I believe to be non-Christian or worse (militant atheist).

The Founding Fathers celebrated Christmas and we will be sure to continue the tradition or else, so help me God.

[Genivaria]

From Dec 1st I make the point to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, especially those who I believe to be non-Christian or worse (militant atheist).

The Founding Fathers celebrated Christmas and we will be sure to continue the tradition or else, so help me God.

Whats a 'militant atheist'?

[Dyakovo]

From Dec 1st I make the point to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, especially those who I believe to be non-Christian or worse (militant atheist).

The Founding Fathers celebrated Christmas and we will be sure to continue the tradition or else, so help me God.

Whats a 'militant atheist'?

An atheist who has the audacity to admit it.

[Neo Art]

I am perfectly content to flounce out in the knowledge that I am definitely better than you at the very least on all possible levels.

How can "all possible levels" be the least of something? By definition "every possibility" is the largest of any conceivable set, not the smallest. It's like saying "infinite plus one". How do you contend to be better than me "on all possible levels" when you seem to have not even grasped a rudimentary knowledge of logic?

[Genivaria]

Whats a 'militant atheist'?

An atheist who has the audacity to admit it.

Ah.

[Saint Jade IV]

I don't see how using the name of a holiday is "offensive" to other religions. Can you not cope with the fact that other people disagree with your views? I am not offended when someone mentions Hanukkah or Ramadan, I do not see why people should be offended by the spirit of Christmas, Christmas Decorations, or anything of that sort.

It's not. No one cares. The right just likes to pretend like these sorts of things happen.

From Dec 1st I make the point to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, especially those who I believe to be non-Christian or worse (militant atheist).

The Founding Fathers celebrated Christmas and we will be sure to continue the tradition or else, so help me God.

So in other words, you behave like an arsehole. Why would you go out of your way to try to offend people?