Mandatory military service in the US

[Risottia]

mandatory military service both discredit the idea of soldiers being brave, as well as lowering the average ability and morale of the armed force

Millions of CONSCRIPTED soldiers of WW2 would have a word with you.

Let's just nominate the Folgore and the Ariete divisions (Italy, WW2, 2nd El-Alamein). The 62nd Army (USSR, WW2, Stalingrad). The 4e Division Cuirassée (France, WW2, Battle of France). The 101st Airborne Division (USA, WW2, Battle of the Bulge). The German U-boot fleet (Germany, WW2, Battle of the Atlantic).

[Laerod]

So, opinions?

Scrap the bit about the military and make it mandatory public service. People would be able to opt out by serving in the military instead if they felt like it, but mandatory service in the military, particularly if the service ends up sending you to a war zone, is evil.

[Imperial Arcand]

And let's not forget; there are plenty of non-combat roles that could be filled by conscripts for all the conciseness-objectors (sp?).

[Laerod]

And let's not forget; there are plenty of non-combat roles that could be filled by conscripts for all the conciseness-objectors (sp?).

That's communist.

[AiliailiA]

So, opinions?

Scrap the bit about the military and make it mandatory public service. People would be able to opt out by serving in the military instead if they felt like it, but mandatory service in the military, particularly if the service ends up sending you to a war zone, is evil.

Running with this idea:

Index the service. Instead of picking on young people to compel service from, have a minimum at age 18 (maybe three months, to be served over two years), allow indefinite deferrals up to retirement age, but charge interest. The longer they delay doing their service, the more is required of them.

[Undivulged Principles]

I'd rather see no taxation without representation first.

People who are not physically or mentally capable would be excluded, as would those with promising athletic, academic or artistic futures/exploits.

What? That would be such a highly efficient military for sure.

[Tuthina]

mandatory military service both discredit the idea of soldiers being brave, as well as lowering the average ability and morale of the armed force

Millions of CONSCRIPTED soldiers of WW2 would have a word with you.

Let's just nominate the Folgore and the Ariete divisions (Italy, WW2, 2nd El-Alamein). The 62nd Army (USSR, WW2, Stalingrad). The 4e Division Cuirassée (France, WW2, Battle of France). The 101st Airborne Division (USA, WW2, Battle of the Bulge). The German U-boot fleet (Germany, WW2, Battle of the Atlantic).

On the other hand, there are also millions of conscripted soldiers of WW2 on the other end of the spectrum, which is plagued by low morale, non-existent training, and have inflicted horrible atrocities both on themselves and those who have the misfortune of being captured by them. While it apparently happens in almost all conscripted militaries, Japan and China seemed to suffer the most from it. Even the late conscripts for the Germans (including the waffen-SS) tend to be an army of scums with no regard of accepted rules of war or morality.

I am not saying that conscripts are ALL unwilling soldiers who can only be kept in line by horrible treatments and disciplines, and there are certainly people in the conscripts who truly want to sacrifice for a greater cause (and I respect them), just that the majority of them just seems to... meh. It is probably more evident when there are no active wars and no national mentality to serve the country. The sorry state of the RoC military is the best example for me as far as I know, and if not because PRC is constantly breathing down their neck, I would say disbanding it entirely and reorganising it would be a service to humanity.

[Laerod]

Scrap the bit about the military and make it mandatory public service. People would be able to opt out by serving in the military instead if they felt like it, but mandatory service in the military, particularly if the service ends up sending you to a war zone, is evil.

Running with this idea:

Index the service. Instead of picking on young people to compel service from, have a minimum at age 18 (maybe three months, to be served over two years), allow indefinite deferrals up to retirement age, but charge interest. The longer they delay doing their service, the more is required of them.

I don't really like this idea. It seems just at a first glance, but consider that the longer you leave your job (even if you're guaranteed to get it back afterwards), the more you forget and the more you need to be qualified for it (see complaints about 3 years of maternity leave in Germany). Mandatory service makes the most sense right before or after college, life-planning-wise.

I'd rather see no taxation without representation first.

People who are not physically or mentally capable would be excluded, as would those with promising athletic, academic or artistic futures/exploits.

What? That would be such a highly efficient military for sure.

We do not try to make sense of the things Hippo comes up with. It is a dangerous path to tread.

[San Leggera]

Bad idea.

[Wolfmanne]

Woah, no no no. Are you saying that University students have to spend 2 years of their education picking crops or time-weary Professionals? Doctors, Lawyer and Engineers are a rare commodity. On another note, conscription would ruin the US military as the best, most kick-arse professional military force (only second to the UK of course ).

[AiliailiA]

Running with this idea:

Index the service. Instead of picking on young people to compel service from, have a minimum at age 18 (maybe three months, to be served over two years), allow indefinite deferrals up to retirement age, but charge interest. The longer they delay doing their service, the more is required of them.

I don't really like this idea. It seems just at a first glance, but consider that the longer you leave your job (even if you're guaranteed to get it back afterwards), the more you forget and the more you need to be qualified for it (see complaints about 3 years of maternity leave in Germany). Mandatory service makes the most sense right before or after college, life-planning-wise.

There, you are considering what is best for the individual (whose service is compelled) regardless of what is best for the collective (whether you call the 'the people' or 'the state').

The whole rationale of compelling service is what is best for the collective.

The argument about what extent of government-compelled individual sacrifice is justified to serve the interests of the collective is a very difficult one. Economic libertarians say None, fascists say 'as much as the state decrees'. I'm somewhere in between, as I'm guessing you are too.

I will however say that the state compelling military service is destructive of human capital and serves the interests of neither an individual nor of the people they supposedly serve. It may serve the interests of the state.

I'd rather see no taxation without representation first.

People who are not physically or mentally capable would be excluded, as would those with promising athletic, academic or artistic futures/exploits.

What? That would be such a highly efficient military for sure.

We do not try to make sense of the things Hippo comes up with. It is a dangerous path to tread.

Yet we tread it. Are we foolish, or brave?

[Risottia]

Millions of CONSCRIPTED soldiers of WW2 would have a word with you.

Let's just nominate the Folgore and the Ariete divisions (Italy, WW2, 2nd El-Alamein). The 62nd Army (USSR, WW2, Stalingrad). The 4e Division Cuirassée (France, WW2, Battle of France). The 101st Airborne Division (USA, WW2, Battle of the Bulge). The German U-boot fleet (Germany, WW2, Battle of the Atlantic).

On the other hand, there are also millions of conscripted soldiers of WW2 on the other end of the spectrum, which is plagued by low morale, non-existent training, and have inflicted horrible atrocities...

Considering how we've seen also a LOT of professionals with low morale, and a LOT of professionals inflicting horrible atrocities, I think we've thoroughly determinet there's no cause-effect relationship at all between
professional/non-professional army and morale
professional/non-professional army and heroism
professional/non-professional army and war crimes

Hence, my point completely stands.

[SD_Film Artists]

No, but I support a similar scheme whereby welfare payments necessitate working a small number of hours per week on community projects.
That way, everyone works at least a little.

It depends on what the welfare is- and in the case of job seeker's allowence, looking for work is your job, hense the name.

[Tagmatium]

Heh, I love how a Finnish dude is recommending the US have mandatory military service...

[Morrdh]

Heh, I love how a Finnish dude is recommending the US have mandatory military service...

A Finnish dude that refuses to do Finnish National Service.

[Meridiani Planum]

I believe that it would be good for all Americans if they performed two mandatory years of compulsory national service.

If it is so good for them, let them volunteer and be willing, self-determining participants in national service. Turning people into slaves just teaches people to be slaves, and that isn't so good for them.

So, opinions?

It is a doubleplusgood idea, comrade.

[Northern Dominus]

In many countries around the world, citizens (though usually just men) have to perform 1-3 years of compulsory military service. While there hasn't been a draft in the US since 1973, I believe that it would be good for all Americans if they performed two mandatory years of compulsory national service.

My idea actually comes from Cuba; you could either perform two years of military service in the Armed Forces, learning basic military stuff OR two years of alternative national service like picking crops or doing some other type of manual labor. This would actually also help to solve the problem of illegal immigration as well; as people participating in their national service would be doing the jobs that uneducated illegal aliens would normally do, the likelihood of illegal aliens getting a job would be much lower. No job, no food. Seems like a good idea eh?

People who are not physically or mentally capable would be excluded, as would those with promising athletic, academic or artistic futures/exploits.

I believe that universal mandatory would be good for all Americans. Right now we've got too many left-wingers spouting bullshit about our troops without any due respect. With two years of compulsory national service, maybe those brats would finally learn to respect the people who risk their lives for them every day. It would also teach people how to honor their elders and the troops, and generally become respected members of the community.

So, opinions?

Isn't this coming from somebody who has actively stated that they're going to avoid their own countries' compulsory military service for rather petulant and unfounded reasons somehow? Should you not experience compulsory military service before deciding to foist it upon another nation of which you are not a citizen, perhaps?

Now that being said, in a way I do subsribe to the principle of compulsory state service. However I'm more in favor of the Starship Troopers model. Rather than forcing everyone to serve in some capacity, or else, you make certain things a right only through service, such as, you guessed it, voting. And not just limit it to the military, it would require that all citizens aged 18 and up would spend 2 years in the service of the US Government in some fashion, whether it's the military, peace corps, social services, heck bring back the WPA and start working on infastructure again. Then when it comes time to vote, the people who have earned the right know how the other half lives and what poverty is like, know the importance of infrastructure and keeping the country running, and know the true horrors and trappings of war and will make informed, intelligent decisions, rather than fall prey to the whims of a snake oil salesman thumping a holy book or buzzwords wrapped in a blanket of itchy jingoism.

But, this could never be. The fact of the matter is no matter how patriotic or how willing some people are, disabilities will always preclude some from serving in some capacity. And if they're precluded from serving and therefore earning the right to vote, then it is not a system truly based upon democratic principle. In the end then, since we can't legislate that service equals voting rights, our military in the US has to be voluntary, has to be the "citizen soldier" model. And in return for their sacrifice and their patriotism, we should reward our soldiers and veterans with the very best care and education this country makes available. To offer any less is criminal.

[Dyakovo]

On the actual topic itself, I disagree with the idea of mandatory military service. Mostly because I see joining the military as an honorable and prestigious choice of the individual. One that I treat as so because it runs in my family.

I might be okay with a year or two of mandatory government service... The military isn't for everyone.

[Tuthina]

Considering how we've seen also a LOT of professionals with low morale, and a LOT of professionals inflicting horrible atrocities, I think we've thoroughly determinet there's no cause-effect relationship at all between
professional/non-professional army and morale
professional/non-professional army and heroism
professional/non-professional army and war crimes

Hence, my point completely stands.

Given the deep end the Japanese went from the Russo-Japanese war and the Pacific War less than 50 years in between, I disagree, but I fear it is derailing the topic, so yeah.

[Tagmatium]

Heh, I love how a Finnish dude is recommending the US have mandatory military service...

A Finnish dude that refuses to do Finnish National Service.

Oh, dear God...

I think the irony has made my head explode.

Oh, Hippo...

[Zijeme]

Now that being said, in a way I do subsribe to the principle of compulsory state service. However I'm more in favor of the Starship Troopers model. Rather than forcing everyone to serve in some capacity, or else, you make certain things a right only through service, such as, you guessed it, voting. And not just limit it to the military, it would require that all citizens aged 18 and up would spend 2 years in the service of the US Government in some fashion

Hmm, yeah, nah, yeah, that's a horrible idea.

[Divair]

Quite simply put:
No.

[Soviet Russia Republic]

While I can understand the need for some countries, I don't see it being needed in the USA.

[Strykla]

No, no, no, no, please all the Gods no. If someone doesn't want to make that sacrifice, that's their problem, and as someone who sees a commission in the USMC as a hopeful prospect I personally believe that if a serviceman hasn't volunteered for the service, they don't want to be there, and there's no way in Hell I'm would place my life or that of another on a conscript.

Granted, the military can teach you important lessons; maybe making school a hair tougher physically would improve the physique of a population as a whole. Only one way to battle obesity, and sitting at a desk isn't it.

[Tekania]

This is pretty funny in an insulting way. Left-wingers don't respect the troops? Why does a Finn feel the right to be the one making such ridiculous claims about half of the United States?

The OP's disconnection with general reality.