Who was worst US president in the 20th and 21st centuries?

[Lesbia]

NATIONSTATES KOMBAT 12!
CHOOSE YOUR CHAMPION...
Player One: Gaveo! (handicap bonus: extreme conservatism)
Player Two: Bojikami! (handicap bonus: homeland passion)
Who Will Win The Debate?
Ready... FIGHT!

Extreme Conservatism?

Really? I mean really?
I'll side with Gaveo, he's one of the few sane ones on these forums from what I've seen.

[Gaveo]

Pinochet a asshole? You must be kidding me, Allende was a screwed up man. And Pinochet saved Chile and despite the calls that he committed genocide is ridiculous, it was a civil war, lives were going to be lost

It is telling that you use the passive here. Lives "were" not lost, government agents quite deliberately ended them.

EDIT: Yeah, compared to Pol Pot. The hell? Compared to Stalin, Castro is a choirboy but you still hate him, right?

Look at the Socialists! They killed a lot of Carabineros! Hanged them from the trees. So don't act like they were just innocent people that didn't kill. Again it was a civil war.

[Ruridova]

So? I like the Soviet Union even less. And economic troubles are now sufficient justification for a brutal coup and installing a ruthless tyrant?

A ruthless tyrant? I have seen/heard worse. None of the Soviets were good neither was Pol Pot. Compared to them, Pinochet was a butterfly.

Of course, when the Vietnamese tried to set up a government to replace Pol Pot's, America supported Pol Pot.... but that's for another thread.

[The Black Forrest]

yeah no; http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/200 ... ailed-myth look at the charts.

Yeah, yeah.

http://mises.org/daily/1623

Wow. DiLorenzo? I didn't think he could write anything else as he is usually to busy foaming at the mouth over Lincoln.

[Gaveo]

Extreme Conservatism?

Really? I mean really?

I'll side with Gaveo, he's one of the few sane ones on these forums from what I've seen.[/quote]

Thank you.

[Ruridova]

Extreme Conservatism?

Really? I mean really?
I'll side with Gaveo, he's one of the few sane ones on these forums from what I've seen.

I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING BETTER.

[North Calaveras]

Meh just typical day with Nationstates 15 socialists, I know because ive been there.

I've grown used to it. It's rare you find someone on here without a political compass between -5 and -10 to the left.

i remember when i was a young leftist on NS hating on the west etc etc hating on Bush, then i left and formed my own beliefs.

THen like the fool I am came back to NS and now raise my blood pressure on NSG

[Gaveo]

Extreme Conservatism?

Really? I mean really?
I'll side with Gaveo, he's one of the few sane ones on these forums from what I've seen.

I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING BETTER.

Look at my sig. Thank you.
And stop using caps lock. *nods*

[Tmutarakhan]

I'd love to be pointed toward something Bush did well.

Well he set in motion many of the plans to get Osama Bin Laden

No. When he had Osama cornered, he inexplicably let him go, and then started saying it was not important to get him.

War in Iraq was bad, i didn't agree with that, but I was with him on Afghanistan.

If he hadn't pulled troops out of Afghanistan to Iraq, we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. He botched both wars very badly, in the process killing more thousands of Americans than Osama could ever have dreamed of.

[Fintanland]

Look at the Socialists! They killed a lot of Carabineros! Hanged them from the trees. So don't act like they were just innocent people that didn't kill. Again it was a civil war.

Oh please. They did it too? This is getting funny. No amount of rebellion justifies torturing 30000 people.

[The Black Forrest]

Open challenge to everyone who says Bush 43 was the worst President of the 21st century.

List for me the transgressions Bush 43 committed without listing Gitmo, the War On Terror, or the PATRIOT Act.

Go.

How about creating the KGB department of homeland security?

He did create several new words for the English language.

[Ruridova]

I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING BETTER.

Look at my sig. Thank you.
And stop using caps lock. *nods*

I used Caps Lock once. Once.

[Bojikami]

Extreme Conservatism?

Really? I mean really?

I'll side with Gaveo, he's one of the few sane ones on these forums from what I've seen.

Thank you.[/quote]
Even I gotta agree. I've seen some of these conservatives, foaming at the mouth clawing angrily...

[North Calaveras]

Well he set in motion many of the plans to get Osama Bin Laden

No. When he had Osama cornered, he inexplicably let him go, and then started saying it was not important to get him.

War in Iraq was bad, i didn't agree with that, but I was with him on Afghanistan.

If he hadn't pulled troops out of Afghanistan to Iraq, we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. He botched both wars very badly, in the process killing more thousands of Americans than Osama could ever have dreamed of.

It's not like the terrorist didn't suffer casualties either, they were getting straight fucked for awhile.

[Gaveo]

Look at the Socialists! They killed a lot of Carabineros! Hanged them from the trees. So don't act like they were just innocent people that didn't kill. Again it was a civil war.

Oh please. They did it too? This is getting funny. No amount of rebellion justifies torturing 30000 people.

30,000? If anything 2,000 people died. Please get your facts right.

Look at my sig. Thank you.
And stop using caps lock. *nods*

I used Caps Lock once. Once.

I know.

[The Black Forrest]

this may be off topic but
only on NS can you find patriotic americans who think T.Roosevelt and FDR were terrible presidnets and who think Reagan was an incredibly horrible president while most americans put him in the top 5 greatest

Teddy? What did he do that was so terrible?

[Fintanland]

30,000? If anything 2,000 people died. Please get your facts right.

That's why I said he tortured 30000. Are you deliberately misreading my posts?

EDIT: And with that, I leave the "debate" before I derail the thread even more. Let the record show that my esteemed interlocutor is okay with dictators as long as they claim the right allegiance.

[The Black Forrest]

but obamacare was him shooting himself in the foot honestly, i love the idea but yeah the way it was to be exicuted was horible. if they lowerd the bisness tax then it would have been as bad consitering the some buisnesses cant affored the healthcare.

I think Americas problem is that if anything leftist has a chance of gaining power the liberals are ok with it then you have the conservatives barking and bowling like frenzied dogs.

Well? You have to understand. The Right Wing of the US has felt very lonely since the Soviets stopped wanting to play with them.

[Desperate Measures]

Open challenge to everyone who says Bush 43 was the worst President of the 21st century.

List for me the transgressions Bush 43 committed without listing Gitmo, the War On Terror, or the PATRIOT Act.

Go.

How about creating the KGB department of homeland security?

He did create several new words for the English language.

No Child Left Behind.
Clear Skies Act.

[Bojikami]

I think Americas problem is that if anything leftist has a chance of gaining power the liberals are ok with it then you have the conservatives barking and bowling like frenzied dogs.

Well? You have to understand. The Right Wing of the US has felt very lonely since the Soviets stopped wanting to play with them.

Well if they want Cuba would LOVE to play.

[The Black Forrest]

That's exactly what it is. For anyone to allege he was the worst is outrageous.

Meh just typical day with Nationstates 15 socialists, I know because ive been there.

Ehh?

Criticizing the shrub makes you a socialist?

[Gaveo]

30,000? If anything 2,000 people died. Please get your facts right.

That's why I said he tortured 30000. Are you deliberately misreading my posts?

Sorry about that.

[Ruridova]

Oh please. They did it too? This is getting funny. No amount of rebellion justifies torturing 30000 people.

30,000? If anything 2,000 people died. Please get your facts right.

Further information:
“He shut down parliament, suffocated political life, banned trade unions, and made Chile his sultanate. His government disappeared 3,200 opponents, arrested 30,000 (torturing thousands of them) ... Pinochet’s name will forever be linked to the Desaparecidos, the Caravan of Death, and the institutionalized torture that took place in the Villa Grimaldi complex.”
— Thor Halvorssen, president of the Human Rights Foundation, National Review
-
The military rule was characterized by systematic suppression of all political dissidence. Scholars later described this as a "politicide" (or "political genocide"). Steve J. Stern spoke of a politicide to describe "a systematic project to destroy an entire way of doing and understanding politics and governance."
The worst violence occurred in the first three months of the coup's aftermath, with the number of suspected leftists killed or "disappeared" (desaparecidos) soon reaching into the thousands. In the days immediately following the coup, the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs informed Henry Kissinger, that the National Stadium was being used to hold 5,000 prisoners, and as late as 1975, the CIA was still reporting that up to 3,811 prisoners were still being held in the Stadium. Between the day of the military coup and November 1973, as many as 40,000 political prisoners were detained in the Stadium. 1,850 of them were killed, another 1,300 are missing since then. Some of the most famous cases of "desaparecidos" are Charles Horman, a U.S. citizen who was killed during the coup itself, Chilean songwriter Víctor Jara, and the October 1973 Caravan of Death (Caravana de la Muerte) where at least 70 persons were killed. Other operations include Operation Colombo during which hundreds of left-wing activists were murdered and Operation Condor, carried out with the security services of other Latin American dictatorships.

Some funeral urns of political activists executed by the Chilean military dictatorship, from 1973 to 1990, in the cemetery of Santiago
Following Pinochet's defeat in the 1988 plebiscite, the 1991 Rettig Commission, a multipartisan effort from the Aylwin administration to discover the truth about the human-rights violations, listed a number of torture and detention centers (such as Colonia Dignidad, the ship Esmeralda or Víctor Jara Stadium), and found that at least 3,200 people were killed or disappeared by the regime.
A later report, the Valech Report (published in November 2004), confirmed the figure of 3,200 deaths but reduced the estimated number of disappearances. It tells of some 28,000 arrests in which the majority of those detained were incarcerated and in a great many cases tortured. Some 30,000 Chileans were exiled and received abroad, in particular in Argentina, as political refugees; however, they were followed in their exile by the DINA secret police, in the frame of Operation Condor which linked South-American dictatorships together against political opponents. Some 20,000–40,000 Chilean exiles were holders of passports stamped with the letter "L" (which stood for lista nacional), identifyng them as persona non grata and had to seek permission before entering the country. According to a study in Latin American Perspectives, at least 200,000 Chileans (about 2% of Chile's 1973 population) were forced to go into exile. Additionally, hundreds of thousands left the country in the wake of the economic crises that followed the military coup during the 1970s and 1980s.

So... 40,000 exiles and 3,200 killed or disappeared. I think that this qualifies Pinochet as destructive and genocidal.

[The Black Forrest]

Meh just typical day with Nationstates 15 socialists, I know because ive been there.

I'd love to be pointed toward something Bush did well.

He created new words.

[Desperate Measures]

I'd love to be pointed toward something Bush did well.

He created new words.

I eat my hat, sir.