Woman dies in Ireland for want of an abortion

[Dyakovo]

If it is actually about calling a foetus what it is, why are you calling a foetus a person?

fetus, infant, child, adolescent, adult, as many words as you want to use, still a human. Not sure why people are so desperate to say underdeveloped humans aren't human. They surely aren't aliens.

No one is saying that a human foetus isn't human.

[Zephie]

the laws of man have nothing to do with this, you're trying to convince me fetuses are alien.

The "laws of men" have everything to do with matters concerning men. And you're the only one who's claimed fetuses are aliens.

If it's not human what is it?

[Risottia]

the laws of man have nothing to do with this,

Considering how human laws are those who deny or allow abortion, yes, they have.
As for the laws of physics, I don't see a purposeful use thereof here, but we could try. It would be longish, though.
Any other supposed "law" is totally immaterial.

you're trying to convince me fetuses are alien.

I've seen a goalpost running by with a strawman sitting on top of it.
I'm quite sure it's yours. If you hurry you can still catch it.

[Zephie]

I've seen a goalpost running by with a strawman sitting on top of it.
I'm quite sure it's yours. If you hurry you can still catch it.

Not sure what your argument has been for the past hour if it's not "Fetuses aren't human."

[Risottia]

fetus, infant, child, adolescent, adult, as many words as you want to use, still a human. Not sure why people are so desperate to say underdeveloped humans aren't human. They surely aren't aliens.

No one is saying that a human foetus isn't human.

Yeah, but, you see, Zephie's only aim is showing how we "Libs" are dehumanizing foeti because we want to kill them, so to prove that we're evil and that he's good.

When you got such a righteous end, all means are ok, including outright lies and systematical misrepresentation of reality.

Not sure what your argument has been for the past hour if it's not "Fetuses aren't human."

Either you're a liar or you're unable to read English.

[Dyakovo]

This is an acorn.

According to your logic it is a tree, because it might someday become one.

[Agritum]

Not sure what your argument has been for the past hour if it's not "Fetuses aren't human."

I guess you misunderstood him. Zthe actual argument is "Fetuses aren't persons".

[Zephie]

No one is saying that a human foetus isn't human.

Yeah, but, you see, Zephie's only aim is showing how we "Libs" are dehumanizing foeti because we want to kill them, so to prove that we're evil and that he's good.

When you got such a righteous end, all means are ok, including outright lies and systematical misrepresentation of reality.

Not sure what your argument has been for the past hour if it's not "Fetuses aren't human."

Either you're a liar or you're unable to read English.

What is your argument then? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing.

[The Calldari State]

If it's not human what is it?

Nobody is denying that it's human.

But to consider a 10 week old fetus par with a developed human, or even an infant is a pretty big stretch.

And one would be a fool to call such a thing a "person".

[Zephie]

If it's not human what is it?

Nobody is denying that it's human.

But to consider a 10 week old fetus par with a developed human, or even an infant is a pretty big stretch.

And one would be a fool to call such a thing a "person".

So then you'd agree killing a fetus is killing a human.

[Zephie]

This is an acorn.

According to your logic it is a tree, because it might someday become one.

Straw man. I see those grammar lessons did nothing for you.

[The Calldari State]

So then you'd agree killing a fetus is killing a human.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with that.

....have you ever opened a biology text book?

[Risottia]

Yeah, but, you see, Zephie's only aim is showing how we "Libs" are dehumanizing foeti because we want to kill them, so to prove that we're evil and that he's good.

When you got such a righteous end, all means are ok, including outright lies and systematical misrepresentation of reality.


Either you're a liar or you're unable to read English.

What is your argument then? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It's not a person. Person =/= human.

Again, you're either
a) too thick to understand the difference between "person" and "human".
or
b) a liar.

[Zephie]

So then you'd agree killing a fetus is killing a human.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with that.

....have you ever opened a biology text book?

And you think killing a human is ok because it's an unwanted human?

[Brassica Primes Cabbage Followers]

And you think killing a human is ok because it's an unwanted human?

It's practically a parasitic organism. (Which merely has a potential for life, just as a sperm would.)

[Free South Califas]

Not only is not having an abortion ban risky during pregnancy, back street abortions increase the rate of dying from the abortion by 250 times. IF you really cared about human life you'd legalise.

Or you just wouldn't create life to destroy it.

In a hypothetical scenario, the rapist has already impregnated the crime survivor. What do we do now? Use the state to force the survivor to give birth to the rapist's child? How is that not just state complicity in the rape, or slut-punishing at best?

Nobody is denying that it's human.

But to consider a 10 week old fetus par with a developed human, or even an infant is a pretty big stretch.

And one would be a fool to call such a thing a "person".

So then you'd agree killing a fetus is killing a human.

It's never been at issue whether babies, fetuses, athletes, melanoma, or brain tumors are human. Do try to keep up. It's been explained to you several times now. The question is who is a person with bodily integrity rights. As far as I can tell, the only logical conclusion is "a human with an integral body".

[The Calldari State]

And you think killing a human is ok because it's an unwanted human?

I think it's ok because a developing human and a human being are quite different from one another.

[Risottia]

Nobody is denying that it's human.

But to consider a 10 week old fetus par with a developed human, or even an infant is a pretty big stretch.

And one would be a fool to call such a thing a "person".

So then you'd agree killing a fetus is killing a human.

Yes. Killing a human fetus is killing a human fetus.

Are you aware of the difference between "homicide", "manslaughter" and "murder", or are those "technicalities" to you, too?

[Zephie]

What is your argument then? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It's not a person. Person =/= human.

Again, you're either
a) too thick to understand the difference between "person" and "human".
or
b) a liar.

Jesus Christ. Pick up a thesaurus and look up the synonyms for person.

[Dyakovo]

In the same way, a fetus is not an human being.

Holy crap, people come from acorns?
Let's say you plant it, a small tree begins growing. That tiny tree is still a tree. A fetus has human features. It's still a human, though a tiny one.

Which is human?




Here's a human and a dolphin about 4 weeks in. Which one is human?

[Free South Califas]

Again, you're either
a) too thick to understand the difference between "person" and "human".
or
b) a liar.

Jesus Christ. Pick up a thesaurus and look up the synonyms for person.

No. There is an important distinction between 'human' and 'person', and if you are unable or unwilling to comprehend the distinction, you should leave the thread so the threadjack stops.

Thesauri are rather informal style reference books, and have little bearing on determining the fine distinctions between legal rights of different clusters of human cells.

[Dyakovo]

Because newborns are given legal personhood through legal fiction. Do try to keep up - at least read the wiki when discussing such stuff, just to have a general impression of the issue.

the laws of man have nothing to do with this, you're trying to convince me fetuses are alien.

No, he isn't.

[GCMG]

Luckily there's Northern Ireland. You know, the better part of Ireland where you can actually get an abortion when your life is in danger instead of suffering in agony for two weeks because POPE and JESUS.

Yes, NI is all about the abortion rights. In fact when a private abortion clinic opened in Belfast there was a big party right outside the door.

How difficult is travelling between the two?

And judging by the result of this instance it's comparatively easier to obtain an abortion.

[Dyakovo]

The "laws of men" have everything to do with matters concerning men. And you're the only one who's claimed fetuses are aliens.

If it's not human what is it?

Again, no one is saying human foetuses aren't human.

[Grave_n_idle]

That has shit to do with bodily sovereignty. Try again.

A fetus has bodily sovereignty...

No it doesn't. Bodily sovereignty is an expression of ownership, and ownership requires participation. A foetus lacks consciousness of it's environment and capacity to coherently respond to external factors - it cannot 'own' anything, even itself.