Israeli "Operation Cloud Pillar" 2012

[Tel]

The bastard deserved what he got and everyone knows it. I know Palestine's story with Israel, but groups like Hamas want genocide and nothing less than the eradication of civilized life. The real shame is that this is just feeding a cycle of stupidity. Rather than blaming the people that are bringing justified wrath down on their heads, the palestinians will undoubtedly blame Israel, which will cause them to act out against it, which will cause more retaliation deaths, which will feed the aforementioned cycle.

[Souseiseki]

The sad part is both statements are true, and you get a self fulfilling death spiral as a result. i would use the west bank as an example of what happens when you stop shooting rockets, (and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too, but that is a different topic). The west bank has had years of economic growth and the peoples lives are better over the past 5 years not worse. It is a simple fact folks don't help folks who are shooting at them, even if it may be in their long term best interest to do so. Until the rockets stop flying out of gaza, life is not going to get better for the people of gaza. This stagnation is going to make the gazan's angry and shoot more rockets, and piss off the israelies, who will then drop more bombs, and the process will repeat over and over again.

You'd expect a democratic state to behave better than a terrorist organization.

why?

the problem is the state cant let it go unpunished, the primary function of a state is to protect it's citizens from things like rocket attacks. If the state can't do that, the government will rightly fall.

What do you suggest, just let them shoot the rockets and not retaliate?

the problem is the state cant let it go unpunished, the primary function of a state is to protect it's citizens from things like airstrikes and "getting screwed". If the state can't do that, the government will rightly fall.

What do you suggest, just let them drops the bombs and demolish homes and not retaliate?

this is how i imagine the discussion is going on other parts of the internet

[Ethel mermania]

The sad part is both statements are true, and you get a self fulfilling death spiral as a result. i would use the west bank as an example of what happens when you stop shooting rockets, (and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too, but that is a different topic). The west bank has had years of economic growth and the peoples lives are better over the past 5 years not worse. It is a simple fact folks don't help folks who are shooting at them, even if it may be in their long term best interest to do so. Until the rockets stop flying out of gaza, life is not going to get better for the people of gaza. This stagnation is going to make the gazan's angry and shoot more rockets, and piss off the israelies, who will then drop more bombs, and the process will repeat over and over again.

why?

the problem is the state cant let it go unpunished, the primary function of a state is to protect it's citizens from things like rocket attacks. If the state can't do that, the government will rightly fall.

What do you suggest, just let them shoot the rockets and not retaliate?

the problem is the state cant let it go unpunished, the primary function of a state is to protect it's citizens from things like airstrikes. If the state can't do that, the government will rightly fall.

What do you suggest, just let them drops the bombs and not retaliate?

your problem is, Hamas ALWAYS shoots first. the current operation is due to rocket attacks into israel, no rocket attacks, no israelie response. Sorry to say, it really is that simple.

there are no rocket attacks from the west bank, now compare the living standards between the two area's.

[Souseiseki]

the problem is the state cant let it go unpunished, the primary function of a state is to protect it's citizens from things like airstrikes. If the state can't do that, the government will rightly fall.

What do you suggest, just let them drops the bombs and not retaliate?

your problem is, Hamas ALWAYS shoots first. the current operation is due to rocket attacks into israel, no rocket attacks, no israelie response. Sorry to say, it really is that simple.

there are no rocket attacks from the west bank, now compare the living standards between the two area's.

so, what was that about palestinians still getting screwed?

[Frisivisia]

Can't we just nuke the Middle East?

[Souseiseki]

Can't we just nuke the Middle East?

no

[Frisivisia]

Can't we just nuke the Middle East?

no

wai

[Minenotyours]

Can't we just nuke the Middle East?

Relax there Mr. Roosevelt

[Ethel mermania]

your problem is, Hamas ALWAYS shoots first. the current operation is due to rocket attacks into israel, no rocket attacks, no israelie response. Sorry to say, it really is that simple.

there are no rocket attacks from the west bank, now compare the living standards between the two area's.

so, what was that about palestinians still getting screwed?

peaceful protest. Once you go to violence you lose all moral authority. The other side gets to say, look they are shooting at us, what are we suppose to do?.

the folks on the west bank manage to protest, and their living standard is still going up. The folks in gaza shoot rockets and they get, deservedly, killed.

[Minenotyours]

so, what was that about palestinians still getting screwed?

peaceful protest. Once you go to violence you lose all moral authority. The other side gets to say, look they are shooting at us, what are we suppose to do?.

the folks on the west bank manage to protest, and their living standard is still going up. The folks in gaza shoot rockets and they get, deservedly, killed.

But few people will peacefully protest, they want radical change at their fingertips. They are willing to tear a nation down piece by piece. to them a few deaths mean nothing, but a better reason to fight.

[Souseiseki]

peaceful protest.

and exactly why would they give a shit about peaceful protests?

Once you go to violence you lose all moral authority.

oh tell it to ghandi

the folks on the west bank manage to protest, and their living standard is still going up. The folks in gaza shoot rockets and they get, deservedly, killed.

someone shot a rocket, so that UN school totally deserved it. mmm.

also what was that would plaestinians still getting screwed? are they peacefully protesting? maybe they should, and then israel would have no choice.

[Souseiseki]

weren't there a bunch of peaceful protests in israel a year or two ago? and then people reported on it for a day and it disappeared? i assume nothing happened, but, someone mentioned something about distracting people from social justice issues in israel before, so.

[Souseiseki]

The folks in gaza shoot rockets and they get, deservedly, killed.

For the vast majority of homes destroyed, more than 3,000, and damaged, some 20,000, during Operation “Cast Lead”, the Israeli army has provided no evidence to substantiate its allegations that the houses were used as combat positions, as military command centres or to manufacture or store weapons – or for any other purpose which, under certain circumstances, would have made it lawful to target them.

Many of the houses, factories and farms were bulldozed and many of the houses were destroyed with Israeli anti-tank mines, as evident from the remains of the mines that littered the destroyed neighbourhoods, and from the pattern of destruction resulting from this method. Although designed to be used against tanks, these mines can also be set off remotely. Israeli forces have often used them to destroy Palestinian houses in the West Bank and at times also in Gaza.

The fact that the soldiers used this method – which required them to leave their tanks, walk between buildings and enter houses in order to place the explosive charges inside the houses along the supporting walls – indicates that they felt extremely confident that there were no Palestinian gunmen inside or around the houses. It also indicates their confidence that there were no tunnels under the houses which gunmen could use to capture them, and that the houses were not booby-trapped. Had the soldiers believed that they were in danger of being shot, blown up or captured, they would not have ventured out of their tanks to place the mines inside the houses.

Clearly marked ambulances with flashing emergency lights and paramedics wearing recognizable fluorescent vests were repeatedly fired upon as they attempted to rescue the wounded and collect the dead. Such attacks intensified after Israeli ground forces took positions inside Gaza on 3 January 2009. Palestinian ambulance crews tried as best they could to reach as many of the wounded and the dead as possible. They and the international volunteers who accompanied some of the ambulance crews risked their lives every day to carry out their mission.

During Operation “Cast Lead” Israeli forces repeatedly took over Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they used the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position – effectively using the families, both adults and children, as “human shields” and putting them at risk.

While soldiers wore protective body armour and helmets and shielded themselves behind sandbags as they fired from the houses, the Palestinian inhabitants of the houses had no such protection.

From 3 January, when the Israeli ground incursion began, until the end of Operation “Cast Lead”, dozens of Israeli tanks took position in various locations inside the Gaza Strip, mostly in the east and north of Gaza. Tanks can fire high-explosive munitions, notably 120mm deep-penetration projectiles and guided shells with extreme precision, including while on the move and at moving targets, from a distance up to 3km from the target.

From these positions inside Gaza Israeli tanks often fired into Palestinian houses up to 2km or more away, killing scores of unarmed civilians, many of them children and women. In all the cases investigated by Amnesty International, the victims were neither caught in the crossfire of battles between soldiers and militants, nor were they shielding militants.

Others who fled their homes were killed or injured when UN schools and other places where they had sought shelter came under Israeli attack.

[Ethel mermania]

weren't there a bunch of peaceful protests in israel a year or two ago? and then people reported on it for a day and it disappeared? i assume nothing happened, but, someone mentioned something about distracting people from social justice issues in israel before, so.

There is one going on right now in the west bank. and yet the people are still doing better than the gazan's

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/10/24/3110236/palestinians-activists-protest-at-west-bank-supermarket

someone mentioned something? are we playing the telephone game now?

(and by the way, look at the source, its the Jews who are reporting it).

[Souseiseki]

weren't there a bunch of peaceful protests in israel a year or two ago? and then people reported on it for a day and it disappeared? i assume nothing happened, but, someone mentioned something about distracting people from social justice issues in israel before, so.

There is one going on right now in the west bank. and yet the people are still doing better than the gazan's

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/10/24/3110236/palestinians-activists-protest-at-west-bank-supermarket

someone mentioned something? are we playing the telephone game now?

(and by the way, look at the source, its the Jews who are reporting it).

viewtopic.php?p=11637262#p11637262

yes. you.

[Ethel mermania]

There is one going on right now in the west bank. and yet the people are still doing better than the gazan's

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/10/24/3110236/palestinians-activists-protest-at-west-bank-supermarket

someone mentioned something? are we playing the telephone game now?

(and by the way, look at the source, its the Jews who are reporting it).

viewtopic.php?p=11637262#p11637262

yes. you.

i dont see where you get that from this: if anything i point out where stopping the shooting of rockets aides economic growth, i get the feeling you disagree with that simple concept.

"The sad part is both statements are true, and you get a self fulfilling death spiral as a result. i would use the west bank as an example of what happens when you stop shooting rockets, (and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too, but that is a different topic). The west bank has had years of economic growth and the peoples lives are better over the past 5 years not worse. It is a simple fact folks don't help folks who are shooting at them, even if it may be in their long term best interest to do so. Until the rockets stop flying out of gaza, life is not going to get better for the people of gaza. This stagnation is going to make the gazan's angry and shoot more rockets, and piss off the israelies, who will then drop more bombs, and the process will repeat over and over again."

[Souseiseki]

viewtopic.php?p=11637262#p11637262

yes. you.

i dont see where you get that from this: if anything i point out where stopping the shooting of rockets aides economic growth, i get the feeling you disagree with that simple concept.

"The sad part is both statements are true, and you get a self fulfilling death spiral as a result. i would use the west bank as an example of what happens when you stop shooting rockets, (and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too, but that is a different topic). The west bank has had years of economic growth and the peoples lives are better over the past 5 years not worse. It is a simple fact folks don't help folks who are shooting at them, even if it may be in their long term best interest to do so. Until the rockets stop flying out of gaza, life is not going to get better for the people of gaza. This stagnation is going to make the gazan's angry and shoot more rockets, and piss off the israelies, who will then drop more bombs, and the process will repeat over and over again."

"and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too"

[Tekania]

The bastard deserved what he got and everyone knows it. I know Palestine's story with Israel, but groups like Hamas want genocide and nothing less than the eradication of civilized life. The real shame is that this is just feeding a cycle of stupidity. Rather than blaming the people that are bringing justified wrath down on their heads, the palestinians will undoubtedly blame Israel, which will cause them to act out against it, which will cause more retaliation deaths, which will feed the aforementioned cycle.

That's generally what happens when you engage in military operations like Israeli does, without the added system of propagating aid to the general populace to attempt to win their hearts and minds. Israeli seems to think they can run military campaigns and treat the citizenry like shit and make it anywhere.... Frankly they are as much to blame in the continuing conflict as hamas is.

[Tmutarakhan]

The sad part is both statements are true, and you get a self fulfilling death spiral as a result. i would use the west bank as an example of what happens when you stop shooting rockets, (and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too, but that is a different topic). The west bank has had years of economic growth and the peoples lives are better over the past 5 years not worse. It is a simple fact folks don't help folks who are shooting at them, even if it may be in their long term best interest to do so. Until the rockets stop flying out of gaza, life is not going to get better for the people of gaza. This stagnation is going to make the gazan's angry and shoot more rockets, and piss off the israelies, who will then drop more bombs, and the process will repeat over and over again.

why?

the problem is the state cant let it go unpunished, the primary function of a state is to protect it's citizens from things like rocket attacks. If the state can't do that, the government will rightly fall.

What do you suggest, just let them shoot the rockets and not retaliate?

the problem is the state cant let it go unpunished, the primary function of a state is to protect it's citizens from things like airstrikes and "getting screwed". If the state can't do that, the government will rightly fall.

What do you suggest, just let them drops the bombs and demolish homes and not retaliate?

this is how i imagine the discussion is going on other parts of the internet

There is a serious difference between "protecting citizens" and "retaliating". Nothing that Hamas is doing has ever "protected" a single Palestinian; on the contrary, their actions have exposed Palestinians to harm.

[Ecans]

The folks in gaza shoot rockets and they get, deservedly, killed.

For the vast majority of homes destroyed, more than 3,000, and damaged, some 20,000, during Operation “Cast Lead”, the Israeli army has provided no evidence to substantiate its allegations that the houses were used as combat positions, as military command centres or to manufacture or store weapons – or for any other purpose which, under certain circumstances, would have made it lawful to target them.

Many of the houses, factories and farms were bulldozed and many of the houses were destroyed with Israeli anti-tank mines, as evident from the remains of the mines that littered the destroyed neighbourhoods, and from the pattern of destruction resulting from this method. Although designed to be used against tanks, these mines can also be set off remotely. Israeli forces have often used them to destroy Palestinian houses in the West Bank and at times also in Gaza.

The fact that the soldiers used this method – which required them to leave their tanks, walk between buildings and enter houses in order to place the explosive charges inside the houses along the supporting walls – indicates that they felt extremely confident that there were no Palestinian gunmen inside or around the houses. It also indicates their confidence that there were no tunnels under the houses which gunmen could use to capture them, and that the houses were not booby-trapped. Had the soldiers believed that they were in danger of being shot, blown up or captured, they would not have ventured out of their tanks to place the mines inside the houses.

Clearly marked ambulances with flashing emergency lights and paramedics wearing recognizable fluorescent vests were repeatedly fired upon as they attempted to rescue the wounded and collect the dead. Such attacks intensified after Israeli ground forces took positions inside Gaza on 3 January 2009. Palestinian ambulance crews tried as best they could to reach as many of the wounded and the dead as possible. They and the international volunteers who accompanied some of the ambulance crews risked their lives every day to carry out their mission.

During Operation “Cast Lead” Israeli forces repeatedly took over Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they used the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position – effectively using the families, both adults and children, as “human shields” and putting them at risk.

While soldiers wore protective body armour and helmets and shielded themselves behind sandbags as they fired from the houses, the Palestinian inhabitants of the houses had no such protection.

From 3 January, when the Israeli ground incursion began, until the end of Operation “Cast Lead”, dozens of Israeli tanks took position in various locations inside the Gaza Strip, mostly in the east and north of Gaza. Tanks can fire high-explosive munitions, notably 120mm deep-penetration projectiles and guided shells with extreme precision, including while on the move and at moving targets, from a distance up to 3km from the target.

From these positions inside Gaza Israeli tanks often fired into Palestinian houses up to 2km or more away, killing scores of unarmed civilians, many of them children and women. In all the cases investigated by Amnesty International, the victims were neither caught in the crossfire of battles between soldiers and militants, nor were they shielding militants.

Others who fled their homes were killed or injured when UN schools and other places where they had sought shelter came under Israeli attack.

And the cause of all this suffering was a group of idiots who attacked another nation first. No attack, no retaliation. SIMPLE. Name another nation on this earth that would do otherwise and worse when attacked.

[Ethel mermania]

i dont see where you get that from this: if anything i point out where stopping the shooting of rockets aides economic growth, i get the feeling you disagree with that simple concept.

"The sad part is both statements are true, and you get a self fulfilling death spiral as a result. i would use the west bank as an example of what happens when you stop shooting rockets, (and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too, but that is a different topic). The west bank has had years of economic growth and the peoples lives are better over the past 5 years not worse. It is a simple fact folks don't help folks who are shooting at them, even if it may be in their long term best interest to do so. Until the rockets stop flying out of gaza, life is not going to get better for the people of gaza. This stagnation is going to make the gazan's angry and shoot more rockets, and piss off the israelies, who will then drop more bombs, and the process will repeat over and over again."

"and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too"

what does that have to do with the claim you made that i said "social justice issues get buried". absolutely nothing.

I think both sides would be better off, if you just built a big wall between them, made 100 yards on each side of the wall a no man's zone. shoot anyone who approaches it, and keep the populations apart. The only thing the past 65 years has proved is that neither side can get along with each other, so its time to stop trying, and just live their lives as best they can. And shooting across the border should be treated as an act of war, and dealt with accordingly.

[Souseiseki]

"and i do think the palestinians get screwed there too"

what does that have to do with the claim you made that i said "social justice issues get buried". absolutely nothing.

I think both sides would be better off, if you just built a big wall between them, made 100 yards on each side of the wall a no man's zone. shoot anyone who approaches it, and keep the populations apart. The only thing the past 65 years has proved is that neither side can get along with each other, so its time to stop trying, and just live their lives as best they can. And shooting across the border should be treated as an act of war, and dealt with accordingly.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=208403&p=11628910&hilit=social+justice#p11628910

that'd have been that guy, actually

you meant like the west bank wall they already have?

it's just, you seem to say they'll stop getting screwed if they stop firing rockets. and then you said they stopped that and they're still getting screwed. ):

[Communeguy]

It seems to me that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, in the west, is all a matter of framing.

If you "grew up", in terms of this issue, hearing how the international community graciously donated land to ethnic jews, who are now being attacked by Palestine, you're going to think of Palestinians as the enemy.

If the same is true of hearing that the Palestinians were there first, and had to cede their land (which they've never ruled for more than five minutes in all of modern history), Palestinian aggression becomes more understandable.

It therefore seems to be the case that the situation is a grey one, in terms of the ease in resolving it. Israeli's say they need a homeland to avoid repeats of holocaust, and the Palestinians just want to go home. Everyone's right, and everyone's wrong, but shooting at each other isn't going to solve it. Geopolitics is no different from interpersonal relationships with the exception of scale - let's follow that idea through to its conclusion.

Let's take a guy who's social circle likes to wear a lot of red. Mr. Red here is rivals with a guy we're going to call Mr. Blue for the same reason. Now, Mr. Red and Mr. Blue are both semi-legitimate business people, and both want to use the same warehouse - which Mr. Blue is already occupying. One day someone from one gang kills someone from the other (the order isn't relevant). The predictable explosion of retaliatory violence tears apart the warehouse as well as the areas surrounding it.

It's no different, and neither Israel nor Palestine can obtain peace through military force - not without significant attrition, to couch it in dehumanizing terms. The solution is to sit back down at the table and come up with an equitable arrangement.

[Ecans]

It seems to me that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, in the west, is all a matter of framing.

If you "grew up", in terms of this issue, hearing how the international community graciously donated land to ethnic jews, who are now being attacked by Palestine, you're going to think of Palestinians as the enemy.

If the same is true of hearing that the Palestinians were there first, and had to cede their land (which they've never ruled for more than five minutes in all of modern history), Palestinian aggression becomes more understandable.

It therefore seems to be the case that the situation is a grey one, in terms of the ease in resolving it. Israeli's say they need a homeland to avoid repeats of holocaust, and the Palestinians just want to go home. Everyone's right, and everyone's wrong, but shooting at each other isn't going to solve it. Geopolitics is no different from interpersonal relationships with the exception of scale - let's follow that idea through to its conclusion.

Let's take a guy who's social circle likes to wear a lot of red. Mr. Red here is rivals with a guy we're going to call Mr. Blue for the same reason. Now, Mr. Red and Mr. Blue are both semi-legitimate business people, and both want to use the same warehouse - which Mr. Blue is already occupying. One day someone from one gang kills someone from the other (the order isn't relevant). The predictable explosion of retaliatory violence tears apart the warehouse as well as the areas surrounding it.

It's no different, and neither Israel nor Palestine can obtain peace through military force - not without significant attrition, to couch it in dehumanizing terms. The solution is to sit back down at the table and come up with an equitable arrangement.

Problem is that Mr. Blue denies Mr. Red's right to any of the warehouse and uses violence with the aim of driving him out.

[Souseiseki]

It seems to me that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, in the west, is all a matter of framing.

If you "grew up", in terms of this issue, hearing how the international community graciously donated land to ethnic jews, who are now being attacked by Palestine, you're going to think of Palestinians as the enemy.

If the same is true of hearing that the Palestinians were there first, and had to cede their land (which they've never ruled for more than five minutes in all of modern history), Palestinian aggression becomes more understandable.

It therefore seems to be the case that the situation is a grey one, in terms of the ease in resolving it. Israeli's say they need a homeland to avoid repeats of holocaust, and the Palestinians just want to go home. Everyone's right, and everyone's wrong, but shooting at each other isn't going to solve it. Geopolitics is no different from interpersonal relationships with the exception of scale - let's follow that idea through to its conclusion.

Let's take a guy who's social circle likes to wear a lot of red. Mr. Red here is rivals with a guy we're going to call Mr. Blue for the same reason. Now, Mr. Red and Mr. Blue are both semi-legitimate business people, and both want to use the same warehouse - which Mr. Blue is already occupying. One day someone from one gang kills someone from the other (the order isn't relevant). The predictable explosion of retaliatory violence tears apart the warehouse as well as the areas surrounding it.

It's no different, and neither Israel nor Palestine can obtain peace through military force - not without significant attrition, to couch it in dehumanizing terms. The solution is to sit back down at the table and come up with an equitable arrangement.

Problem is that Mr. Blue denies Mr. Red's right to any of the warehouse and uses violence with the aim of driving him out.

Of course, Mr. Red has slowly been taking more and more of the warehouse and continues to fill parts of the warehouse with Reddites, taking stock from all the warehouse. Afterall, the warehouse belongs to the Red man.

this is why stupid analogies are shit and shouldn't be used