In the Time of a Second Civil War, who would you support?

[Ostroeuropa]

Ive heard that argument before.... and conditionally, yes. The condition being that it is on their property and that they declare themselves their own nation. If it occurs on their property and they declare themselves their own nation, and in that nation it is legal, then yes yes it is.

You don't think that their victims deserve their own rights to be observed? Like the right to bodily integrity?

He's functionally an anarchist.
There are no rights in an anarchy.

[Salandriagado]

If you love America you wouldn't be trying to break her up over politics. You're not being oppressed. We have a system that allows changes to be made. Withdrawing because your guy lost is not one of the options. Not an honest one, anyway, or an adult one.

Please note I wrote 'WERE curropt', I was pointing out that if a precident is made that allows secession we could handle a curopt government in a civil manner. Also you forget that New York and other states who elected Obama are in those states wishing to secede, this isn't about Obama, this is about some more then a man. Note the 'years of work' and mention of times before, this is not about Obama, this goes back further.

There are precisely zero states currently petitioning to for secession. Zero. There are no states that even have a noticeable percentage of their population supporting secession, even if you believe the numbers on the petitions (which you shouldn't - see my post prior to the post quoted here). Even if there was a state with a sizeable proportion of its population legitimately on the petition, that still would not be the state petitioning for anything at all. It would be a group of people who happen to live within the state petitioning for it.

[Wisconsin9]

So you believe that rape and murder is justified if the perpetrators don't believe in those laws?

^^Ninja'd.

Ive heard that argument before.... and conditionally, yes. The condition being that it is on their property and that they declare themselves their own nation. If it occurs on their property and they declare themselves their own nation, and in that nation it is legal, then yes yes it is.

So you could declare independence, make a quick run to the grocery store, kidnap someone, claim asylum in your house/nation, then rape her to death, and you think that should be alright?

[Dracone]

Ive heard that argument before.... and conditionally, yes. The condition being that it is on their property and that they declare themselves their own nation. If it occurs on their property and they declare themselves their own nation, and in that nation it is legal, then yes yes it is.

So you could declare independence, make a quick run to the grocery store, kidnap someone, claim asylum in your house/nation, then rape her to death, and you think that should be alright?

No that wouldnt be alright, and heres why. Your kidnapping. It doesnt matter if you claim asylum, your kidnapping a citizen of the other country. If she were to go into your nation willingly though.... unfortunately yes. It would be unfortunate, but yes it would be justifiable.

as to the person saying Im an anarchist.... pretty much, not quite but yes, and your wrong, there is rights in anarchy, you just have to enforce them yourself. Ofcourse Im a proponent in natural rights rather then legal rights.

to the person talking about victims rights, well it would be unfortunate that it happened, she should have been more careful as to where she went. If it was kidnapping, then it is not acceptable, but if she went into the nation willingly...

[Sulamalik]

So you could declare independence, make a quick run to the grocery store, kidnap someone, claim asylum in your house/nation, then rape her to death, and you think that should be alright?

No that wouldnt be alright, and heres why. Your kidnapping. It doesnt matter if you claim asylum, your kidnapping a citizen of the other country. If she were to go into your nation willingly though.... unfortunately yes. It would be unfortunate, but yes it would be justifiable.

as to the person saying Im an anarchist.... pretty much, not quite but yes, and your wrong, there is rights in anarchy, you just have to enforce them yourself. Ofcourse Im a proponent in natural rights rather then legal rights.

to the person talking about victims rights, well it would be unfortunate that it happened, she should have been more careful as to where she went. If it was kidnapping, then it is not acceptable, but if she went into the nation willingly...

If that person was kidnapped. Would you say it would be okay for the victim family to "invade" the sovereignty of the kidnapper's nation to rescue him/her?

Also, this "every person being their own nation-idea" is really really stupid and infeasible for obvious reasons.

[Adventus Secundus]

Their wont be a war if the unionist just let us leave. We are asking peacefully, we are petitioning, we are not rebeling, we are doing this civily. I have given my vote on this thread. Think of the benifits to the nation as a whole, are they so hard to see? Smaller areas are easier to manage making it simpler to get an economy on track, with many conservative states out of the union Obama will have little opposition to his reforms making the union run smoother, having shared heritage with the other states of the union those seceding will maintain a good relationship with the Union, it is the government, not America they are destainful of. The free passage and trade between states will more then likly remain uninfrenged as most have family outside of state and the union would be the only nation any of the states would have a strong tie too.

Texas vs. White. Articles of Confederation --> Constitution of the United States, indissoluble union. Barring that Supreme Court precedent, take it up with Congress. Good luck.

Virginia to wit

We the Delegates of the People of Virginia duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the General Assembly and now met in Convention having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention and being prepared as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us to decide thereon Do in the name and in behalf of the People of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will: that therefore no right of any denomination can be cancelled abridged restrained or modified by the Congress by the Senate or House of Representatives acting in any Capacity by the President or any Department or Officer of the United States except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for those purposes: & that among other essential rights the liberty of Conscience and of the Press cannot be cancelled abridged restrained or modified by any authority of the United States. With these impressions with a solemn appeal to the Searcher of hearts for the purity of our intentions and under the conviction that whatsoever imperfections may exist in the Constitution ought rather to be examined in the mode prescribed therein than to bring the Union into danger by a delay with a hope of obtaining Amendments previous to the Ratification, We the said Delegates in the name and in behalf of the People of Virginia do by these presents assent to and ratify the Constitution recommended on the seventeenth day of September one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven by the Federal Convention for the Government of the United States hereby announcing to all those whom it may concern that the said Constitution is binding upon the said People according to an authentic Copy hereto annexed in the Words following; .

Done in Convention this twenty Sixth day of June one thousand seven hundred and eighty eight


AN ORDINANCE to repeal the ratification of the Constitution of the United State of America by the State of Virginia, and to resume all the rights and powers granted under said Constitution.

The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitition were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States:

Now, therefore, we, the people of Virginia, do declare and ordain, That the ordinance adopted by the people of this State in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and all acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying and adopting amendments to said Constitution, are hereby repealed and abrogated; that the union between the State of Virginia and the other States under the Constitution aforesaid is hereby dissolved, and that the State of Virginia is in the full possession and exercise of all the rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State.

And they do further declare, That said Constitution of the United States of America is no longer binding on any of the citizens of this State.

This ordinance shall take effect and be an act of this day, when ratified by a majority of the voter of the people of this State cast at a poll to be taken thereon on the fourth Thursday in May next, in pursuance of a schedule hereafter to be enacted.


Looks pretty damn legitimate to me. I think law and history are on one side...that of secession and self-determination. Might may be on the side of the Federalists, but might never makes right.

[Galborg]

USA civil war, I am pro Union, British civil war pro Parliament, Russian Red, Spanish Anarchist,Roman pro Republic.

[Dracone]

No that wouldnt be alright, and heres why. Your kidnapping. It doesnt matter if you claim asylum, your kidnapping a citizen of the other country. If she were to go into your nation willingly though.... unfortunately yes. It would be unfortunate, but yes it would be justifiable.

as to the person saying Im an anarchist.... pretty much, not quite but yes, and your wrong, there is rights in anarchy, you just have to enforce them yourself. Ofcourse Im a proponent in natural rights rather then legal rights.

to the person talking about victims rights, well it would be unfortunate that it happened, she should have been more careful as to where she went. If it was kidnapping, then it is not acceptable, but if she went into the nation willingly...

If that person was kidnapped. Would you say it would be okay for her family to "invade" the sovereignty of the kidnapper's nation to rescue her?

Also, this "every person being their own nation-idea" is really really stupid and infeasible for obvious reasons.

Yes, Yes it would be ok. If she was kidnapped they would be perfectly right in invading the persons home and rescuing her. and they would be perfectly acceptable to gain help from third parties.

[Benutanairan]

USA civil war, I am pro Union, British civil war pro Parliament, Russian Red, Spanish Anarchist,Roman pro Republic.

Pro confederacy, Pro King, Pro White, Pro Republic, Pro Julius Ceaser

[Sulamalik]

If that person was kidnapped. Would you say it would be okay for her family to "invade" the sovereignty of the kidnapper's nation to rescue her?

Also, this "every person being their own nation-idea" is really really stupid and infeasible for obvious reasons.

Yes, Yes it would be ok. If she was kidnapped they would be perfectly right in invading the persons home and rescuing her. and they would be perfectly acceptable to gain help from third parties.

Then there's no real reason for your ideal society not to collapse into Warlordism, is there?

[New Rogernomics]

How about neither, a civil war is a silly idea.

[Benutanairan]

How about neither, a civil war is a silly idea.

How about we be left alone?

[Grand Britannia]

How about neither, a civil war is a silly idea.

How about we be left alone?

How about federal cake party for all states?

[Dracone]

Yes, Yes it would be ok. If she was kidnapped they would be perfectly right in invading the persons home and rescuing her. and they would be perfectly acceptable to gain help from third parties.

Then there's no real reason for your ideal society not to collapse into Warlordism, is there?

Nope. There isnt. Its also virtually impossible to bring about in the current world. The only way it would be practical to bring about (due to their not being any country willing to give up land to a single person, and no habitable unclaimed land) would be space travel (even just to the other planets in the solar system.... which we actually have the tech to do its just the technology uses nukes and the UN shits itself at nukes in space) then if they wanted to declare their own nation, all theyd have to do is go to an uninhabited planet or asteroid... and then the seperation (while it wouldnt outright prevent warlordism) would limit warlordism.

[Benutanairan]

How about we be left alone?

How about federal cake party for all states?

Cake party?

You mean the cake is filled with lies and corruption no!

[Galloism]

Given I survived one successful revolution and one failed revolution by drinking through them and minding my own business...

I would probably just do that again.

[Sulamalik]

Then there's no real reason for your ideal society not to collapse into Warlordism, is there?

Nope. There isnt. Its also virtually impossible to bring about in the current world. The only way it would be practical to bring about (due to their not being any country willing to give up land to a single person, and no habitable unclaimed land) would be space travel (even just to the other planets in the solar system.... which we actually have the tech to do its just the technology uses nukes and the UN shits itself at nukes in space) then if they wanted to declare their own nation, all theyd have to do is go to an uninhabited planet or asteroid... and then the seperation (while it wouldnt outright prevent warlordism) would limit warlordism.

Fair enough. As long as you don't start bombing post offices here, I'm okay with shameless idealism. I can actually quite respect it.

[Dracone]

Nope. There isnt. Its also virtually impossible to bring about in the current world. The only way it would be practical to bring about (due to their not being any country willing to give up land to a single person, and no habitable unclaimed land) would be space travel (even just to the other planets in the solar system.... which we actually have the tech to do its just the technology uses nukes and the UN shits itself at nukes in space) then if they wanted to declare their own nation, all theyd have to do is go to an uninhabited planet or asteroid... and then the seperation (while it wouldnt outright prevent warlordism) would limit warlordism.

Fair enough. As long as you don't start bombing post offices here, I'm okay with shameless idealism. I can actually quite respect it.

Thank you. actually quite unusual on this site and dont worry, I wont be bombing any post offices lol... military shipments maybe but.... roflmao jking jking. only an idiot would actually try to rebel against the goverment on their own.... now if a civil war starts, you might find me making a few bombs but I aint bout to start nothing I cant finish....

[Phocidaea]

The Union.

It's not exactly a coincidence that almost all of the former CSA votes Republican on a regular basis... Lincoln was a Republican, but ironically now it's the Democrats who would support the Union.

[Greed and Death]

Personally I would support an a free vermont Vermont. But they dont don't have a petition so it dont doesn't matter

There are laws in Vermont against what you just did the English language.

I think that is how people from Vermont sound.

[Greed and Death]

Given I survived one successful revolution and one failed revolution by drinking through them and minding my own business...

I would probably just do that again.

Gallo, the Yankees stole your alcohol and your still.

[Galloism]

Given I survived one successful revolution and one failed revolution by drinking through them and minding my own business...

I would probably just do that again.

Gallo, the Yankees stole your alcohol and your still.

Nah, those were the decoys.

The beer was actually old urine that I left in them for the purpose of being stolen. The liquor was isopropyl alcohol that I use for cleaning things, and the still was just a flat-out decoy.

[Wisconsin9]

Gallo, the Yankees stole your alcohol and your still.

Nah, those were the decoys.

The beer was actually old urine that I left in them for the purpose of being stolen. The liquor was isopropyl alcohol that I use for cleaning things, and the still was just a flat-out decoy.

Wis is now very glad he doesn't drink.

[Augarundus]

Eh, I wouldn't support the Union, certainly. I would always oppose statist aggression, particularly against the facade of freedom right of self-determination. I don't necessarily support the South/West (or any other faction) seceding, but it would be absolutely immoral to support the Union's invasion.

I guess I'd take the Lysander Spooner position?

[Greed and Death]

Gallo, the Yankees stole your alcohol and your still.

Nah, those were the decoys.

The beer was actually old urine that I left in them for the purpose of being stolen. The liquor was isopropyl alcohol that I use for cleaning things, and the still was just a flat-out decoy.

Gallo the Yankees came back, and this time they stole nana-kun