In the Time of a Second Civil War, who would you support?

[Ifreann]

If its just a straight do-over of the last one then Collins and the pro-Treatyites. De Valera was wrong, and sure by having to accept the treaty eventually he ended up getting what he wanted in the long-run and got to be President, so dragging everyone into a civil war in the first place was really unnecessary.

I cannot imagine what mad sequence of events would lead to a straight do-over, short of a Doctor Who plot.

I wonder what it says that so many Americans think that history will repeat itself in so literal a fashion...

[Frisivisia]

If its just a straight do-over of the last one then Collins and the pro-Treatyites. De Valera was wrong, and sure by having to accept the treaty eventually he ended up getting what he wanted in the long-run and got to be President, so dragging everyone into a civil war in the first place was really unnecessary.

I cannot imagine what mad sequence of events would lead to a straight do-over, short of a Doctor Who plot.

I wonder what it says that so many Americans think that history will repeat itself in so literal a fashion...

It says that they have only a rudimentary understanding of history, due to underfunded schools.

[Nadkor]

If its just a straight do-over of the last one then Collins and the pro-Treatyites. De Valera was wrong, and sure by having to accept the treaty eventually he ended up getting what he wanted in the long-run and got to be President, so dragging everyone into a civil war in the first place was really unnecessary.

I cannot imagine what mad sequence of events would lead to a straight do-over, short of a Doctor Who plot.

I wonder what it says that so many Americans think that history will repeat itself in so literal a fashion...

I hope the Brits get on with tying to conquer the south so that we can get things up and running, otherwise the whole idea of a do-over is going to start to look very silly indeed.

[Tyrants]

The Roundheads, silly.

Oh sorry, you meant the American Civil War? Sorry...

[Priory Academy USSR]

Reds. Russia's a bit too oligarchic for my liking.
Parliamentarians. Who doesn't like a guy who tries to cancel Christmas? (OK, not exactly)
Pro Treatyists-Ireland needed a good old martyr.
Union-well, I don't really give a shit about that one...

[Daistallia 2104]

Color me on the "proper" side of the much more likely occurance of a class war.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

I would watch and laugh as the secessionists were crushed, again, having not learned from the first time.

The hegemony always wins.
Though pretty sure the Confederacy didn't station most of their tanks and air in the south :/

[Dragonlord Jargon]

Why do you think we are ASKING the union? This isn't the first time we have either, petitions have been sent numerous times in the years since the war but never have so many been sent at one time. What would you have us do? Years of work is going into this, we love America, we do not want war, if the government WERE as in if it was curropt would you prefer your state to scede peacefully or to take up arms agianst the entire nation. To US scecession is the civil choice, war is barbaric and solves NOTHING.

If you love America you wouldn't be trying to break her up over politics. You're not being oppressed. We have a system that allows changes to be made. Withdrawing because your guy lost is not one of the options. Not an honest one, anyway, or an adult one.

Please note I wrote 'WERE curropt', I was pointing out that if a precident is made that allows secession we could handle a curopt government in a civil manner. Also you forget that New York and other states who elected Obama are in those states wishing to secede, this isn't about Obama, this is about some more then a man. Note the 'years of work' and mention of times before, this is not about Obama, this goes back further.

[Ifreann]

I cannot imagine what mad sequence of events would lead to a straight do-over, short of a Doctor Who plot.

I wonder what it says that so many Americans think that history will repeat itself in so literal a fashion...

I hope the Brits get on with tying to conquer the south so that we can get things up and running, otherwise the whole idea of a do-over is going to start to look very silly indeed.

Maybe if we elect Sinn Fein they'll provoke the Brits.
'New Irish PM to Queen: "I had yer ma"'

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Ifreann, giving the lighter side to serious topics since August 5, 2005

Member number 808?
Sweet, brah

[Neo Art]

You want to know what would really happen if a bunch of "southern states" tried to split off? here:

OK let's go through this. Who would this grand new nation trade with? They're only bordering two countries. The one they just fought a war with is one. Mexico is the other. Yeah. Mexico. Good luck getting MEXICO to trade with the southern states.

Well there's the ocean. Not the pacific, mind you, that's blocked off by California, Oregon, and Washington state. Which is unfortunate because that closes off the ENTIRE pacific rim, like China Japan and Taiwan, which is unfortuate because they make all your shit.

So you can go to the Atlantic. You'll maybe get a FEW states actually boarding the Atlantic ocean. Not many, because New England is pretty blue, and even Virginia and Florida are purple enough to not want to deal with this shit, but hey you'll get South Carolina.

Maybe even Georgia!

So you'll be able to bring in trade by sea. Well. Maybe not. See you only have limited coastal area. Who will be in position to blockade those coastal areas?

Oh, right, the United States Navy. Which would incidentally be a problem even if you did eke out an area on the West Coast. Pearl Harbor Naval Base and all.

Fuck.

OK, fine, let's say you get around the blockades, who do you trade with? Well, Western Europe. But remember, you "defaulted on your debt", destroying the credit rating of this grand new nation, thus making any and all foreign countries extremely reluctant to trade with you. So you're not going to get any trade out of the Old World without near crippling penalties. But ok, there's another problem.

That country you just went to war with? The legitimate united states? Yeah, they're a member of some clubs. Not just the UN, but NATO as well. Yeah, NATO. Remember NATO? That group with the mutual alliance pacts? While they may weazle out of an "internal" US conflict, all the US has to do is recognize your independance, declare war on you, block your ports and wait for you to attack, triggering NATOS defense treaties. At best, the entire industrialized portions of Western Europe (Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Italy) will lock out out. At worst they'll join in with their ally and bomb the piss out of you.

So now you have no trade alliances. Well, you can be internal. Sure. OK. Take a look at this map. All the oil, natural gas, renewable, hydro and nuclear plants? Our side of the border.

You have coal. Yeah, coal. Something that requires big heavy industrialized machines to dig out of the ground.

Where are all the factories located that MAKE all those big, heavy, industrialized machines?

FUCK.

Same with Oil. You got texas, sure, but the major sources of oil in the US comes from Alaska, and foreign imports. Also oil, again, takes a lot of shit to drill out of the ground, shit that breaks down fast. Shit you have no means of replacing.

Also, you don't have a lot of fresh water. Most of that is piped in from elsewhere.

So you have no power, no water, no electricity, no industry, and no means of GETTING those things.

You make food, and I'll give you that. Of course, without modern technology at the level supplied by the north, or foreign trade, you won't be able to make NEARLY enough of it to support your population. Which after 10-15 years will probably stabilize, after the famines kill off whomever didn't flee your stupid little country.

But that's KINDA like winning, right?

As for how the whole "but the south would join and they'd have the military and they could win the war!"

Possibly, I mean it may be a justification used by NATO states to not get involved in an "internal" matter and then cast the US federal government as "aggressors" to try and get out of defense pacts, but that's a stretch. What's even more of a stretch is imagining NATO somehow NOT getting involved in an armed rebellion brewing inside the largest economic and military might in the world, and their most powerful ally.

Even if they mumble something about "defensive pacts, have to do it" the reality is the European NATO powers aren't going to let the US federal government stand alone at a time like that. Some internal terrorist problem, sure. Actual full scale insurrection? No. Not only are they not going to risk damaging their most valueable alliance but, even though the rebells almost certainly won't win, god help us all if they somehow DO.

But, to further this idiocy of "southern secession", who do you think is going to FIGHT this war for you, oh southern rebels? A few wingnuts with guns is not going to handle the US military.

And even if you think that you'll get some of the military to join you under some misguided belief that they're all "good old boys", think again, demographically, recruits to the US military are pretty evenly spread out, and represent a portion of the urban recruitment not terribly out of whack with the general population. And urbanites are much less likely to support this rebellion of yours.

Moreover your rhetoric of "fuck the federal government" may not go over so well with employees of the federal government.

But ignoring that, let's pretend you do get about half the military to join you. And along with that, about half the military assets.

Well you know what those military assets all come equipped with?

Remote kill switches.

Meaning all those boats and bombers and nuclear weapons and drones you got your hands on? They're all turned off. And the only people with the keys is the Pentagon.

So yeah, you may get your hand on a carrier or two, but unless you want to paddle that bitch home, you're gonna have to try to find a way past the encrypted servers that control the engine. Servers that were given a remote shut down signal the minute you fired your first shot.

I know somewhere in your heart you believe the south will rise again. It won't. This isn't 1862. It's 2012. And even if, in the most optimal conditions of a southern rebellion you may get your hands on some grunts, some guns, and whatever bullets you manage to scavange up, the north will have all the planes, the bombs, the drones, the industries, the power, the oil, the water, and the ports.

And the entire NATO alliance

[Acro]

Personally I would support an free vermont. But they dont have a petition so it dont matter

[Farnhamia]

Personally I would support an a free vermont Vermont. But they dont don't have a petition so it dont doesn't matter

There are laws in Vermont against what you just did the English language.

[United Fallcrest]

In response to these seccesion petitions(which I believe will prove to be nothing but saber rattling) I was suprised by some of the Souther Seccesionists.

In the case of a Second Civil War, assuming the states with large petions(25,00 for the purposes of this thread), whihc side would you support?

I personaly, would take up the flag for the Union and the Republic, to put down traitorous and ridculous rebel from the South and West.

You know New York Petitioned too...

[Farnhamia]

In response to these seccesion petitions(which I believe will prove to be nothing but saber rattling) I was suprised by some of the Souther Seccesionists.

In the case of a Second Civil War, assuming the states with large petions(25,00 for the purposes of this thread), whihc side would you support?

I personaly, would take up the flag for the Union and the Republic, to put down traitorous and ridculous rebel from the South and West.

You know New York Petitioned too...

Yeah, and Colorado and Pennsylvania and Oregon. These are not petitions from the states themselves. As people have observed, you don't need to be an American to start a petition on that site. All you need is a valid email address to start an account there.

[Holstria]

Hard to say, I'm not sure I could simply "join" a side due to what happend in the last war (especially in terms of how it effected my family). I would remain neutral at first, and see how events played out.

EDIT: Assuming any type of military conflict was real.

[Reploid Productions]

Why do you think we are ASKING the union? This isn't the first time we have either, petitions have been sent numerous times in the years since the war but never have so many been sent at one time. What would you have us do? Years of work is going into this, we love America, we do not want war, if the government WERE as in if it was curropt would you prefer your state to scede peacefully or to take up arms agianst the entire nation. To US scecession is the civil choice, war is barbaric and solves NOTHING.

Which begs the question: what happens after the union hears your request and basically goes "LOL, no." what then?

[Cylarn]

I am from North Carolina, and yes, I'm a hillbilly with a bad drawl who loves their state. But if the dumbasses down South actually manage to spark a civil war, then I'm fighting for my country, rather than my state. I'll fight to save them from themselves.

[Dragonlord Jargon]

Why do you think we are ASKING the union? This isn't the first time we have either, petitions have been sent numerous times in the years since the war but never have so many been sent at one time. What would you have us do? Years of work is going into this, we love America, we do not want war, if the government WERE as in if it was curropt would you prefer your state to scede peacefully or to take up arms agianst the entire nation. To US scecession is the civil choice, war is barbaric and solves NOTHING.

Which begs the question: what happens after the union hears your request and basically goes "LOL, no." what then?

The same thingthat happened before, we just perpare for the worse and wait two years or more and send another petition in the same as the countless times before.

[TaQud]

Go Union!

[Farnhamia]

Which begs the question: what happens after the union hears your request and basically goes "LOL, no." what then?

The same thingthat happened before, we just perpare for the worse and wait two years or more and send another petition in the same as the countless times before.

What happened the last time? Do you mean, when South Carolina got impatient (as they are wont to do) and opened fire on Fort Sumter?

[Dragonlord Jargon]

The same thingthat happened before, we just perpare for the worse and wait two years or more and send another petition in the same as the countless times before.

What happened the last time? Do you mean, when South Carolina got impatient (as they are wont to do) and opened fire on Fort Sumter?

Actually I don't, the state has sent many petions in since the war, the last vote taken since the war ended with 51% agianst and 49% for seceding. A vote has not been held since. The only reason this secession movement has gotten such plublisicty is the number of states usually the white house only sees two or three petitions a year. Also, you must understand that some stil blame Lincon for the War:
http://americancivilwar.com/authors/Jos ... ecord.html

[Norsklow]

Will you Rebs get on with it?

*has his guns loaded with case-shot and trained at Charleston*

[Bone Fort]

Guys, as I've said before, you're all wrong.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

[Tovakestan]

I say that the north should just let the south go, that way they will get rid of those "pesky backwards" conservatives like me.