Secession Movement in the United States

[Seperates]

It does. Social contract.

I don't adhere to John Locke's philosophy of the social contract.

I adhere to the Hobbesian version.

[Samuraikoku]

I don't adhere to John Locke's philosophy of the social contract.

Too bad. The United States do.

[Socialdemokraterne]

So...I'm getting that we're more interested in whether states ought to be able to secede at all than whether the current petitions proposing secession are suspect?

[Norstal]

It does. Social contract.

I don't adhere to John Locke's philosophy of the social contract.

That's...nice? Just because you don't adhere to it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just as creationists continue to deny evolution, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Delanshar]

It does. Social contract.

I don't adhere to John Locke's philosophy of the social contract.

Too Bad. Your government does and so does society.

[Armenia Reborn]

Election of any individual doesn't determine mandate.

It does in a democracy.

Yea, except we aren't a democracy. The 51% can't simply kill the other 49% though legislation/mandate.

[The Emerald Dawn]

So...I'm getting that we're more interested in whether states ought to be able to secede at all than whether the current petitions proposing secession are suspect?

We don't need to draw a sign on a whale saying it's a whale. We can look at it and say, quite adequately, it's a whale. We prefer to spend our hours on the discussion of whether that whale ought to be able to take our house and dictate that it is now a burka.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't adhere to John Locke's philosophy of the social contract.

Too Bad. Your government does and so does society.

well, if the texans no longer do, that is kind of the point.

[Ostroeuropa]

Suppose they voted for a secessionist candidate?
Even if they lost.

Texas vs. White. Gotta take it up with Congress. Good luck.

Since the UN resolution on self-determination, that may no longer be the case.
I remind you, USA's constitution says international law trumps domestic.

[Armenia Reborn]

I don't adhere to John Locke's philosophy of the social contract.

Too Bad. Your government does and so does society.

All the more reason for those who don't adhere to your particular worldview and "imposing of morality" upon the general public to be allowed to splinter off and live according to what they believe society should resemble.

[Delanshar]

Too Bad. Your government does and so does society.

well, if the texans no longer do, that is kind of the point.

Federal Gov > Texas.

Anyway the point is moot since 65,000 people online (many of whom are from other states) doesn't come close to representing the people of Texas.

[Armenia Reborn]

Texas vs. White. Gotta take it up with Congress. Good luck.

Since the UN resolution on self-determination, that may no longer be the case.
I remind you, USA's constitution says international law trumps domestic.

The US constitution says nothing of the sort. The U.N. and any resolution it passes is irrelevant.

[Delanshar]

It does in a democracy.

Yea, except we aren't a democracy. The 51% can't simply kill the other 49% though legislation/mandate.

Now thats just paranoia. When did preventing secession become "killing almost half America"?

[Samuraikoku]

All the more reason for those who don't adhere to your particular worldview and "imposing of morality" upon the general public to be allowed to splinter off and live according to what they believe society should resemble.

If those people want to leave, they're more than happy to. The territory still belongs to the U.S.A., because of the Articles of Confederation, the U.S. Constitution, and Texas vs. White.

[Armenia Reborn]

well, if the texans no longer do, that is kind of the point.

Federal Gov > Texas.

Anyway the point is moot since 65,000 people online (many of whom are from other states) doesn't come close to representing the people of Texas.

Not if Texas decides to tell the Federal government that they will no longer be subject to the Federal government.

If you really want to go down there and start shooting those who are advocating and supporting secession down there, feel free. Murder is apparently acceptable if you deem it so.

[Forsakia]

All the more reason for those who don't adhere to your particular worldview and "imposing of morality" upon the general public to be allowed to splinter off and live according to what they believe society should resemble.

If those people want to leave, they're more than happy to. The territory still belongs to the U.S.A., because of the Articles of Confederation, the U.S. Constitution, and Texas vs. White.

Why are you against self-determination?

[Ostroeuropa]

Since the UN resolution on self-determination, that may no longer be the case.
I remind you, USA's constitution says international law trumps domestic.

The US constitution says nothing of the sort. The U.N. and any resolution it passes is irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause

[Delanshar]

Texas vs. White. Gotta take it up with Congress. Good luck.

Since the UN resolution on self-determination, that may no longer be the case.
I remind you, USA's constitution says international law trumps domestic.

Yeah. Um. No.

[Armenia Reborn]

Yea, except we aren't a democracy. The 51% can't simply kill the other 49% though legislation/mandate.

Now thats just paranoia. When did preventing secession become "killing almost half America"?

In a democracy, the 51% rules the 49%. WE are a republic, not a democracy.

[Forsakia]

Now thats just paranoia. When did preventing secession become "killing almost half America"?

In a democracy, the 51% rules the 49%. WE are a republic, not a democracy.

You're some mixture of both those (vague) terms.

[Delanshar]

The US constitution says nothing of the sort. The U.N. and any resolution it passes is irrelevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause

This pertains to FEDERAL not International law. The Federal government and it's laws trump those of the states. This is what we've been saying all along.

[Socialdemokraterne]

So...I'm getting that we're more interested in whether states ought to be able to secede at all than whether the current petitions proposing secession are suspect?

We don't need to draw a sign on a whale saying it's a whale. We can look at it and say, quite adequately, it's a whale. We prefer to spend our hours on the discussion of whether that whale ought to be able to take our house and dictate that it is now a burka.

But I'm questioning the whale's very existence. What I've proposed is that this entire secession issue is canned and served by a group significantly smaller than it appears to be. I'm saying that the whale is a minnow using smoke and mirrors to appear larger than it is. Why combat secession when it cannot be verified that people are actually pursuing it in the reported numbers? The petitions are posted and signed anonymously. Unless Michael E.'s last name is the letter E, and unless he submitted documentation proving he lives in Louisiana, I have no reason to believe he's not Carlos Andreas in Madrid trolling on the White House website. Until those signatories verify they are who they say they are and live where they say they live, why should I waste even five seconds even thinking about the rise of secessionist tendencies in the United States?

[Laerod]

Now thats just paranoia. When did preventing secession become "killing almost half America"?

In a democracy, the 51% rules the 49%. WE are a republic, not a democracy.

That's not the distinction, especially considering that there's a major overlap between the two.

[Ostroeuropa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause

This pertains to FEDERAL not International law. The Federal government and it's laws trump those of the states. This is what we've been saying all along.

You'll notice it also specifically says treaties.
Treaties trump federal law and state law.
Whether or not they trump the constitution is open for debate.

[The Emerald Dawn]

We don't need to draw a sign on a whale saying it's a whale. We can look at it and say, quite adequately, it's a whale. We prefer to spend our hours on the discussion of whether that whale ought to be able to take our house and dictate that it is now a burka.

But I'm questioning the whale's very existence. What I've proposed is that this entire secession issue is canned and served by a group significantly smaller than it appears to be. I'm saying that the whale is a minnow using smoke and mirrors to appear larger than it is. Why combat secession when it cannot be verified that people are actually pursuing it in the reported numbers? The petitions are posted and signed anonymously. Unless Michael E.'s last name is the letter E, and unless he submitted documentation proving he lives in Louisiana, I have no reason to believe he's not Carlos Andreas in Madrid trolling on the White House website. Until those signatories verify they are who they say they are and live where they say they live, why should I waste even five seconds even thinking about the rise of secessionist tendencies in the United States?

I'm going to give you mad props for continuing the metaphor.