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Secession Movement in the United States

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Benutanairan
Senator
 
Posts: 3955
Founded: Jul 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Benutanairan » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:47 pm

Delanshar wrote:
Armenia Reborn wrote:
It does not matter. If people want to succeed then they want to succeed. If enough of them in an area want to succeed, are you going to attempt to stop them by force?


Thats a dangerous mindset. It means the territorial intregrity of the USA is hold hostage to swaying public opinion. The USA is meant to be a perpetual union. Once your in, your here to stay.



Until D.C is nuked off the earth by one of our many enemies.
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The Emerald Dawn
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Founded: Jun 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Emerald Dawn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:48 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:US Law.
If they can amend the constitution by convincing 2/3rds of all states and continue through that to setting up an agreed upon framework for secession, we'll talk.


Doubtless there was a law against what the colonists did, or indeed, the irish.

Several. Thing is, might makes right back then. Today? It's a little different. We've moved past the point of not knowing if there are chocolate-filled sparkle dragons beyond the next hill and into the day and age where everyone is working together for the most part.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:49 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Doubtless there was a law against what the colonists did, or indeed, the irish.

Several. Thing is, might makes right back then. Today? It's a little different. We've moved past the point of not knowing if there are chocolate-filled sparkle dragons beyond the next hill and into the day and age where everyone is working together for the most part.


The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law principles of international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.

The USA's own constitution agrees international law trumps domestic.
There is a framework for independence.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Armenia Reborn
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Posts: 121
Founded: Sep 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Armenia Reborn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:49 pm

Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest. No wonder we think we know what is better for other countries than they do and that we are willing to use force to make our will reality.
Last edited by Armenia Reborn on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Libertarianism is the radical notion that YOU don't own other people.
- The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants.
- The free market punishes irresponsibility. The government rewards it.

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Delanshar
Minister
 
Posts: 2510
Founded: Feb 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Delanshar » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:50 pm

Benutanairan wrote:
Delanshar wrote:
Thats a dangerous mindset. It means the territorial intregrity of the USA is hold hostage to swaying public opinion. The USA is meant to be a perpetual union. Once your in, your here to stay.



Until D.C is nuked off the earth by one of our many enemies.



Then we will reestablish the United States from an underground, technologically advanced bunker deep in the Rocky Mountains. It will take time tho.
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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Armenia Reborn wrote:Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest.

Yep, too bad.
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Delanshar
Minister
 
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Founded: Feb 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Delanshar » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Armenia Reborn wrote:Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest.


Dude. Do you even know what the definition of nationalism is? This is Federalism. Not the same thing.
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Benutanairan
Senator
 
Posts: 3955
Founded: Jul 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Benutanairan » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:52 pm

Delanshar wrote:
Benutanairan wrote:

Until D.C is nuked off the earth by one of our many enemies.



Then we will reestablish the United States from an underground, technologically advanced bunker deep in the Rocky Mountains. It will take time tho.


Well depends

You have to have that lucky bastard who was fishing in lake geneva to become the president, especially considering if 3/4ths of the US government is wiped out.
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The Emerald Dawn
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20824
Founded: Jun 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Emerald Dawn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:52 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:Several. Thing is, might makes right back then. Today? It's a little different. We've moved past the point of not knowing if there are chocolate-filled sparkle dragons beyond the next hill and into the day and age where everyone is working together for the most part.


The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law principles of international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.

The USA's own constitution agrees international law trumps domestic.
There is a framework for independence.

Sure, if the nation in question was the Iroquois, or the Nez Perce. Ohio isn't a nation, neither is Texas.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57902
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:53 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law principles of international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.

The USA's own constitution agrees international law trumps domestic.
There is a framework for independence.

Sure, if the nation in question was the Iroquois, or the Nez Perce. Ohio isn't a nation, neither is Texas.


On what basis do you make that claim?

A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.


Texas is a nation by this definition.
So is Ohio.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Armenia Reborn
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Posts: 121
Founded: Sep 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Armenia Reborn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:53 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Armenia Reborn wrote:Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest.

Yep, too bad.


Just imagine if insane neo-con right wing conservatives controlled the entire country, dictated theocratic laws upon your state through the federal government, and people in your state decided it was time to leave the union. Would you still be of the same nationalistic opinion?
- Libertarianism is the radical notion that YOU don't own other people.
- The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants.
- The free market punishes irresponsibility. The government rewards it.

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Samuraikoku
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31947
Founded: May 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Samuraikoku » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:54 pm

Armenia Reborn wrote:Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest. No wonder we think we know what is better for other countries than they do and that we are willing to use force to make our will reality.


Last time you tried, you failed. Are you sure you want to go down the same road?

Laughable.

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Benutanairan
Senator
 
Posts: 3955
Founded: Jul 02, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Benutanairan » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:54 pm

Armenia Reborn wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Yep, too bad.


Just imagine if insane neo-con right wing conservatives controlled the entire country, dictated theocratic laws upon your state through the federal government, and people in your state decided it was time to leave the union. Would you still be of the same nationalistic opinion?



Hence north sudan.
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Playing as Fascist France in Alternate Cold War
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=219575
1950 Shadows playing as US
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Serving as an Elemental priest in Elementals: Return of Kayorest
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=219722

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The Emerald Dawn
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Jun 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Emerald Dawn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:55 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:Sure, if the nation in question was the Iroquois, or the Nez Perce. Ohio isn't a nation, neither is Texas.


On what basis do you make that claim?

"The Nation of Ohio" doesn't exist. "The State of Ohio" is on their seal and all their literature. Same with Texas. State != Nation.

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Socialdemokraterne
Minister
 
Posts: 3448
Founded: Dec 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Socialdemokraterne » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:55 pm

The petitions are presented and signed through an online petitioning system which is part of whitehouse.gov. That's fine, but here's the problem: the people who posted the petitions (and the people who sign them) do not have to verify their citizenship status (or even their existence) in order to post and sign petitions. All you need to participate in the web service is an alleged name, an e-mail address, and an alleged zip code and city/state associated with that address. You don't have to verify your citizenship status or even provide your full name as you sign up for a "We the People" account, and you don't have to provide this information to sign a petition either.

What kind of a petition for a state to secede from the Union doesn't confirm that people like "Michael E." are actually citizens of the state and city they say they are (in this case Louisiana) and doesn't confirm that the signatories are who they say they are either? How can you confirm that "Susan B." of New Orleans isn't really Horatio C. of Madrid using an imitated Louisiana IP address and signing/posting petitions for the lulz? For that matter, how do you confirm that "Susan B." isn't Charles E. of Wisconsin on one of his hundreds of "We the People" accounts he's running through a Tor browser in order to sign his own petitions anonymously?

I just can't take this petition service (or the secession petitions running through it) seriously.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:55 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
On what basis do you make that claim?

"The Nation of Ohio" doesn't exist. "The State of Ohio" is on their seal and all their literature. Same with Texas. State != Nation.


A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.


That isn't what a nation means. You are thinking of a sovereign state. The nation of texas exists if the inhabitants choose to believe it does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Texas
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:56 pm

Armenia Reborn wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Yep, too bad.


Just imagine if insane neo-con right wing conservatives controlled the entire country, dictated theocratic laws upon your state through the federal government, and people in your state decided it was time to leave the union. Would you still be of the same nationalistic opinion?

I certainly wouldn't support secession. I might leave the country if it got that bad. But this is bullshit speculation. None of these people pushing these petitions is being persecuted or oppressed. The US has no procedure for states to leave. If you want to work on creating one, knock yourself out, but please stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Delanshar
Minister
 
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Founded: Feb 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Delanshar » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:56 pm

Armenia Reborn wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Yep, too bad.


Just imagine if insane neo-con right wing conservatives controlled the entire country, dictated theocratic laws upon your state through the federal government, and people in your state decided it was time to leave the union. Would you still be of the same nationalistic opinion?


If they won the election fair and square, then they have a legitimate mandate to rule the nation. Such crazies would never get elected tho so the point is moot.
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Onza
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Postby Onza » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:57 pm

So why should 100,000 signatures (many from states separate from those petitioning) determine the fate of a couple million citizens? When I checked, Texas had about 70,000 signatures, but is that any majority compared to the population of almost 27 million?

It looks to me like conservatives complaining about a more-liberal victory.
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The Emerald Dawn
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Founded: Jun 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Emerald Dawn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:57 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:"The Nation of Ohio" doesn't exist. "The State of Ohio" is on their seal and all their literature. Same with Texas. State != Nation.


A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.


That isn't what a nation means. You are thinking of a sovereign state. The nation of texas exists if the inhabitants choose to believe it does.

I'm not going to go to Josef Stalin for the definition of what a Nation is, and I'm not going to use the ephemeral to define the real.

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Armenia Reborn
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 121
Founded: Sep 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Armenia Reborn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:58 pm

Delanshar wrote:
Armenia Reborn wrote:Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest.


Dude. Do you even know what the definition of nationalism is? This is Federalism. Not the same thing.


Nationalism is simply put: unity at all costs. It is a religion of inclusive indefiniteness. Its the forging together of diverse cultures and peoples into a nationalized ethnos. Its a recipe for niche discrimination. Think about it.
- Libertarianism is the radical notion that YOU don't own other people.
- The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants.
- The free market punishes irresponsibility. The government rewards it.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57902
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:58 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.


That isn't what a nation means. You are thinking of a sovereign state. The nation of texas exists if the inhabitants choose to believe it does.

I'm not going to go to Josef Stalin for the definition of what a Nation is, and I'm not going to use the ephemeral to define the real.


World Book Dictionary defines nation as “the people occupying the same country, united under the same government, and usually speaking the same language”. Another definition is that nation is a “sovereign state.” It also says nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” World Book Dictionary also gives this definition: “a tribe of North American Indians.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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The Emerald Dawn
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20824
Founded: Jun 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Emerald Dawn » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:59 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:I'm not going to go to Josef Stalin for the definition of what a Nation is, and I'm not going to use the ephemeral to define the real.


World Book Dictionary defines nation as “the people occupying the same country, united under the same government, and usually speaking the same language”. Another definition is that nation is a “sovereign state.” It also says nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” World Book Dictionary also gives this definition: “a tribe of North American Indians.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”.

Well then, the entire world is one nation.

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Delanshar
Minister
 
Posts: 2510
Founded: Feb 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Delanshar » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:59 pm

Benutanairan wrote:
Delanshar wrote:

Then we will reestablish the United States from an underground, technologically advanced bunker deep in the Rocky Mountains. It will take time tho.


Well depends

You have to have that lucky bastard who was fishing in lake geneva to become the president, especially considering if 3/4ths of the US government is wiped out.


I'm sure the US government has some sort of contingency plans in place for a nuclear attack on Washington. It may not be the president, or even the vice president, but someone with a credible connection to the former administration will be leading the war effort from the Rocky Bunker
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57902
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:00 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
World Book Dictionary defines nation as “the people occupying the same country, united under the same government, and usually speaking the same language”. Another definition is that nation is a “sovereign state.” It also says nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” World Book Dictionary also gives this definition: “a tribe of North American Indians.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”.

Well then, the entire world is one nation.


Quite. You can reductio ad absurdum it.
But nonetheless, that is the law.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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