Secession Movement in the United States

[Benutanairan]

It does not matter. If people want to succeed then they want to succeed. If enough of them in an area want to succeed, are you going to attempt to stop them by force?

Thats a dangerous mindset. It means the territorial intregrity of the USA is hold hostage to swaying public opinion. The USA is meant to be a perpetual union. Once your in, your here to stay.

Until D.C is nuked off the earth by one of our many enemies.

[The Emerald Dawn]

US Law.
If they can amend the constitution by convincing 2/3rds of all states and continue through that to setting up an agreed upon framework for secession, we'll talk.

Doubtless there was a law against what the colonists did, or indeed, the irish.

Several. Thing is, might makes right back then. Today? It's a little different. We've moved past the point of not knowing if there are chocolate-filled sparkle dragons beyond the next hill and into the day and age where everyone is working together for the most part.

[Ostroeuropa]

Doubtless there was a law against what the colonists did, or indeed, the irish.

Several. Thing is, might makes right back then. Today? It's a little different. We've moved past the point of not knowing if there are chocolate-filled sparkle dragons beyond the next hill and into the day and age where everyone is working together for the most part.

The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law principles of international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.

The USA's own constitution agrees international law trumps domestic.
There is a framework for independence.

[Armenia Reborn]

Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest. No wonder we think we know what is better for other countries than they do and that we are willing to use force to make our will reality.

[Delanshar]

Thats a dangerous mindset. It means the territorial intregrity of the USA is hold hostage to swaying public opinion. The USA is meant to be a perpetual union. Once your in, your here to stay.

Until D.C is nuked off the earth by one of our many enemies.

Then we will reestablish the United States from an underground, technologically advanced bunker deep in the Rocky Mountains. It will take time tho.

[Farnhamia]

Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest.

Yep, too bad.

[Delanshar]

Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest.

Dude. Do you even know what the definition of nationalism is? This is Federalism. Not the same thing.

[Benutanairan]

Until D.C is nuked off the earth by one of our many enemies.

Then we will reestablish the United States from an underground, technologically advanced bunker deep in the Rocky Mountains. It will take time tho.

Well depends

You have to have that lucky bastard who was fishing in lake geneva to become the president, especially considering if 3/4ths of the US government is wiped out.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Several. Thing is, might makes right back then. Today? It's a little different. We've moved past the point of not knowing if there are chocolate-filled sparkle dragons beyond the next hill and into the day and age where everyone is working together for the most part.

The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law principles of international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.

The USA's own constitution agrees international law trumps domestic.
There is a framework for independence.

Sure, if the nation in question was the Iroquois, or the Nez Perce. Ohio isn't a nation, neither is Texas.

[Ostroeuropa]

The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker), or in short form, the right to self-determination is the cardinal principle in modern international law principles of international law (jus cogens), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.

The USA's own constitution agrees international law trumps domestic.
There is a framework for independence.

Sure, if the nation in question was the Iroquois, or the Nez Perce. Ohio isn't a nation, neither is Texas.

On what basis do you make that claim?

A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.


Texas is a nation by this definition.
So is Ohio.

[Armenia Reborn]

Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest.

Yep, too bad.

Just imagine if insane neo-con right wing conservatives controlled the entire country, dictated theocratic laws upon your state through the federal government, and people in your state decided it was time to leave the union. Would you still be of the same nationalistic opinion?

[Samuraikoku]

Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest. No wonder we think we know what is better for other countries than they do and that we are willing to use force to make our will reality.

Last time you tried, you failed. Are you sure you want to go down the same road?

Laughable.

[Benutanairan]

Yep, too bad.

Just imagine if insane neo-con right wing conservatives controlled the entire country, dictated theocratic laws upon your state through the federal government, and people in your state decided it was time to leave the union. Would you still be of the same nationalistic opinion?

Hence north sudan.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Sure, if the nation in question was the Iroquois, or the Nez Perce. Ohio isn't a nation, neither is Texas.

On what basis do you make that claim?

"The Nation of Ohio" doesn't exist. "The State of Ohio" is on their seal and all their literature. Same with Texas. State != Nation.

[Socialdemokraterne]

The petitions are presented and signed through an online petitioning system which is part of whitehouse.gov. That's fine, but here's the problem: the people who posted the petitions (and the people who sign them) do not have to verify their citizenship status (or even their existence) in order to post and sign petitions. All you need to participate in the web service is an alleged name, an e-mail address, and an alleged zip code and city/state associated with that address. You don't have to verify your citizenship status or even provide your full name as you sign up for a "We the People" account, and you don't have to provide this information to sign a petition either.

What kind of a petition for a state to secede from the Union doesn't confirm that people like "Michael E." are actually citizens of the state and city they say they are (in this case Louisiana) and doesn't confirm that the signatories are who they say they are either? How can you confirm that "Susan B." of New Orleans isn't really Horatio C. of Madrid using an imitated Louisiana IP address and signing/posting petitions for the lulz? For that matter, how do you confirm that "Susan B." isn't Charles E. of Wisconsin on one of his hundreds of "We the People" accounts he's running through a Tor browser in order to sign his own petitions anonymously?

I just can't take this petition service (or the secession petitions running through it) seriously.

[Ostroeuropa]

On what basis do you make that claim?

"The Nation of Ohio" doesn't exist. "The State of Ohio" is on their seal and all their literature. Same with Texas. State != Nation.

A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.


That isn't what a nation means. You are thinking of a sovereign state. The nation of texas exists if the inhabitants choose to believe it does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Texas

[Farnhamia]

Yep, too bad.

Just imagine if insane neo-con right wing conservatives controlled the entire country, dictated theocratic laws upon your state through the federal government, and people in your state decided it was time to leave the union. Would you still be of the same nationalistic opinion?

I certainly wouldn't support secession. I might leave the country if it got that bad. But this is bullshit speculation. None of these people pushing these petitions is being persecuted or oppressed. The US has no procedure for states to leave. If you want to work on creating one, knock yourself out, but please stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Delanshar]

Yep, too bad.

Just imagine if insane neo-con right wing conservatives controlled the entire country, dictated theocratic laws upon your state through the federal government, and people in your state decided it was time to leave the union. Would you still be of the same nationalistic opinion?

If they won the election fair and square, then they have a legitimate mandate to rule the nation. Such crazies would never get elected tho so the point is moot.

[Onza]

So why should 100,000 signatures (many from states separate from those petitioning) determine the fate of a couple million citizens? When I checked, Texas had about 70,000 signatures, but is that any majority compared to the population of almost 27 million?

It looks to me like conservatives complaining about a more-liberal victory.

[The Emerald Dawn]

"The Nation of Ohio" doesn't exist. "The State of Ohio" is on their seal and all their literature. Same with Texas. State != Nation.

A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.


That isn't what a nation means. You are thinking of a sovereign state. The nation of texas exists if the inhabitants choose to believe it does.

I'm not going to go to Josef Stalin for the definition of what a Nation is, and I'm not going to use the ephemeral to define the real.

[Armenia Reborn]

Yep, Unity at ALL costs. If you try to leave its treason... Nationalism at it's finest.

Dude. Do you even know what the definition of nationalism is? This is Federalism. Not the same thing.

Nationalism is simply put: unity at all costs. It is a religion of inclusive indefiniteness. Its the forging together of diverse cultures and peoples into a nationalized ethnos. Its a recipe for niche discrimination. Think about it.

[Ostroeuropa]

A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.


That isn't what a nation means. You are thinking of a sovereign state. The nation of texas exists if the inhabitants choose to believe it does.

I'm not going to go to Josef Stalin for the definition of what a Nation is, and I'm not going to use the ephemeral to define the real.

World Book Dictionary defines nation as “the people occupying the same country, united under the same government, and usually speaking the same language”. Another definition is that nation is a “sovereign state.” It also says nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” World Book Dictionary also gives this definition: “a tribe of North American Indians.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I'm not going to go to Josef Stalin for the definition of what a Nation is, and I'm not going to use the ephemeral to define the real.

World Book Dictionary defines nation as “the people occupying the same country, united under the same government, and usually speaking the same language”. Another definition is that nation is a “sovereign state.” It also says nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” World Book Dictionary also gives this definition: “a tribe of North American Indians.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”.

Well then, the entire world is one nation.

[Delanshar]

Then we will reestablish the United States from an underground, technologically advanced bunker deep in the Rocky Mountains. It will take time tho.

Well depends

You have to have that lucky bastard who was fishing in lake geneva to become the president, especially considering if 3/4ths of the US government is wiped out.

I'm sure the US government has some sort of contingency plans in place for a nuclear attack on Washington. It may not be the president, or even the vice president, but someone with a credible connection to the former administration will be leading the war effort from the Rocky Bunker

[Ostroeuropa]

World Book Dictionary defines nation as “the people occupying the same country, united under the same government, and usually speaking the same language”. Another definition is that nation is a “sovereign state.” It also says nation can refer to “a people, race, or tribe; those having the same descent, language, and history.” World Book Dictionary also gives this definition: “a tribe of North American Indians.” Webster’s New Encyclopedic Dictionary defines nation as “a community of people composed of one or more nationalities with its own territory and government” and also as “a tribe or federation of tribes (as of American Indians)”.

Well then, the entire world is one nation.

Quite. You can reductio ad absurdum it.
But nonetheless, that is the law.