Secession Movement in the United States

[Farnhamia]

The Republicans got mad about losing again and are throwing a tantrum. thats all this is, a childish tantrum

Pretty much. It is a little troubling though because many of those Republicans are ridiculously well armed.
Gun sales have skyrocketed since Obama's reelection.

Consider it the only kind of stimulus package the GOP is authorized by the Tea Party and Uncle Grover to approve.

[Northern Dominus]

Pretty much. It is a little troubling though because many of those Republicans are ridiculously well armed.
Gun sales have skyrocketed since Obama's reelection.

Consider it the only kind of stimulus package the GOP is authorized by the Tea Party and Uncle Grover to approve.

Hmm, and the irony would be delicious if Grover found himself on the wrong end of one of those guns courtesy of the hysteria-buyers.

[The Black Forrest]

The Republicans got mad about losing again and are throwing a tantrum. thats all this is, a childish tantrum

Pretty much. It is a little troubling though because many of those Republicans are ridiculously well armed.
Gun sales have skyrocketed since Obama's reelection.

Hmmmm might have to arm up to protect myself from Republicans......

[Delanshar]

Pretty much. It is a little troubling though because many of those Republicans are ridiculously well armed.
Gun sales have skyrocketed since Obama's reelection.

Hmmmm might have to arm up to protect myself from Republicans......

Lol

[Greed and Death]

Well the Republican base is most likely to be armed, most likely to shoot and take food from the democrat base, and most likely to not change their votes just because they had to shoot a few democrats.

If the federal government survives the ranks of democrat voters have been culled.
If the federal government falls then the Republicans can enjoy rule by state governments.

Really win win.

Indeed. We will turn our weapons on each other first.

Ahh but the State will practice the same thing so the Republicans will enjoy city governments.

Then rinse and repeat after 200 years, and we will be back to the city states of ancient Greece, I am so going to live in Dallas ( hopefully renamed new Sparta). Democracy is a cycle really rising up becoming centralized then collapsing and becoming more decentralized as minorities realize even a small minority can disrupt such an interconnected government and economy.

[Greed and Death]

Pretty much. It is a little troubling though because many of those Republicans are ridiculously well armed.
Gun sales have skyrocketed since Obama's reelection.

Hmmmm might have to arm up to protect myself from Republicans......

The strongest argument I can make that the 2nd amendment is an individual right requiring strict scrutiny is, there are Republicans.

[Greed and Death]

Pretty much. It is a little troubling though because many of those Republicans are ridiculously well armed.
Gun sales have skyrocketed since Obama's reelection.

Consider it the only kind of stimulus package the GOP is authorized by the Tea Party and Uncle Grover to approve.

Fear mongering makes for a better economy, so the GOP did make those new jobs.

[Neo Art]

The title (and the article it links to) should be edited. 22 states have not petitioned for the right to seceed from the United States.

A handful of people living in 22 states have petitioned the federal governement. Less than 100,000 it seems, which is less than 1/25th of one percent of the population.

More people voted for Mickey Mouse last tuesday than signed this petition. Why should we even take this remotely seriously?

[Ostroeuropa]

The title (and the article it links to) should be edited. 22 states have not petitioned for the right to seceed from the United States.

A handful of people living in 22 states have petitioned the federal governement. Less than 200,000 it seems, which is less than 1 percent of 1 percent of the population of the United States.

But that would make for less of a hook to get people to read it

[Ifreann]

Really, US Secessionists? Internet petitions? You may as well tattoo "THE SOUTH WILL COME AGAIN" on your ass for all the good it will do.

[Farnhamia]

Really, US Secessionists? Internet petitions? You may as well tattoo "THE SOUTH WILL COME AGAIN" on your ass for all the good it will do.

"Rise again," it's "rise again," not "come again." Foreigners, I swear. But yeah, this is silliness.

[The Old South]

Secession? In this day and age?

Sad.

[Ifreann]

Really, US Secessionists? Internet petitions? You may as well tattoo "THE SOUTH WILL COME AGAIN" on your ass for all the good it will do.

"Rise again," it's "rise again," not "come again." Foreigners, I swear.

Yeah, well, shut up.

But yeah, this is silliness.

Silliness best used elsewhere.

[Ostroeuropa]

Oh man, imagine if the texas petition (Which has to receive an official response) gets the response


"Yeh ok, fuck off guys."

"...Wait what?"

"yeh you are now independent."

"but-"

[Farnhamia]

"Rise again," it's "rise again," not "come again." Foreigners, I swear.

Yeah, well, shut up.

But yeah, this is silliness.

Silliness best used elsewhere.

I could have made one of the unnumerable jokes "The South Will Come Again" evokes, so you shut up. And Finance is threatening to cancel your credit cards - again - if you don't turn in an expense report.

[Ifreann]

Oh man, imagine if the texas petition (Which has to receive an official response) gets the response


"Yeh ok, fuck off guys."

"...Wait what?"

"yeh you are now independent."

"but-"

No, no. Don't make Texas independent. Revoke the US citizenship of anyone who signs the petition. Give 'em a few weeks to organise their lives and leave then start rounding them up and shipping them to international waters.

[Ifreann]

Yeah, well, shut up.

Silliness best used elsewhere.

I could have made one of the unnumerable jokes "The South Will Come Again" evokes, so you shut up. And Finance is threatening to cancel your credit cards - again - if you don't turn in an expense report.

Those are credit cards? Shit, I thought the vending machines needed ID cards now...

[The Old South]

Oh man, imagine if the texas petition (Which has to receive an official response) gets the response


"Yeh ok, fuck off guys."

"...Wait what?"

"yeh you are now independent."

"but-"

No, no. Don't make Texas independent. Revoke the US citizenship of anyone who signs the petition. Give 'em a few weeks to organise their lives and leave then start rounding them up and shipping them to international waters.

Deport the Texans to Mexico, so they can see what the illegals were fleeing from.

Although it would run (admittedly slight) risk that the Texans defeat the cartels, overthrow the government, and freeboot a Republic of NEW Texas into existence. And then apply to join the Union for protection.

[Risottia]

Heh, indeed. Unless its 30,000 people in Vermont, that number doesn't really matter much.

There are more than 30,000 people in Vermont?

There are people in Vermont?

Sure. Lots of people.

Just very few of them are humans.

[Farnhamia]

Oh man, imagine if the texas petition (Which has to receive an official response) gets the response


"Yeh ok, fuck off guys."

"...Wait what?"

"yeh you are now independent."

"but-"

No, no. Don't make Texas independent. Revoke the US citizenship of anyone who signs the petition. Give 'em a few weeks to organise their lives and leave then start rounding them up and shipping them to international waters.

While I like this idea, the effect will probably be to ruin Caribbean vacations for everyone else. That's what happened in the 1980s when the oil boom went bust, a lot of Texans fled to the islands. Who wants to settle down with a tropical drink on a nice beach, only to hear, "Hey, y'all! You from the States?"

[Ifreann]

No, no. Don't make Texas independent. Revoke the US citizenship of anyone who signs the petition. Give 'em a few weeks to organise their lives and leave then start rounding them up and shipping them to international waters.

While I like this idea, the effect will probably be to ruin Caribbean vacations for everyone else. That's what happened in the 1980s when the oil boom went bust, a lot of Texans fled to the islands. Who wants to settle down with a tropical drink on a nice beach, only to hear, "Hey, y'all! You from the States?"

Eh, happens to Irish people all the time when we go on holidays. We can go literally anywhere on Earth and find other Irish people. Once space holidays take off(eh? eh?) we'll probably keep bumping into each other there too.

[Free South Califas]

I have just a few words for you: Huntsman 2016.

Or Karger, or Daniels. You get the picture. A guy who can present a credible center-right, mainstream message. No more Tea Party hacks. No more Romneys, who can be falsely painted as extremists (how did Mitt let himself get painted as a right-winger, anyway).

Romney wasn't "falsely painted". He moved hard right in his own rhetoric, and was correctly viewed as an empty suit with no firm guiding principles. He also displayed a callous attitude toward working people, veterans, and/or women, which didn't help.

If their economy could not survive without slavery then their economy deserved to be completely obliterated.

That is not for us to decide.

That page of history has long since closed.

No. This has not changed: Slavery has always been evil, and if you are willing to abide it for even a second anywhere on earth, so are you. It's self-evident to anyone who has ever been free. You seem to be exercising freedom yourself, so it's pretty much an open-and-shut case for you. Evil. You probably don't care, but you can't change the nature of slavery with mealy-mouthed sociopathic rhetoric.

I would love to see the world's reaction if the South does this. What allies would the South find, I wonder?

Ironically, they'd probably have a lot of common ground with Mexico and Iran, for different reasons. Not so sure about Venezuela, mentioned upthread, but then, I have to remind myself that just because they nationalized the oil doesn't mean they actually stand in solidarity with socialism and against the right per se.

Why did they bother starting petitions in New York and New Jersey? If those two secede, the independent governments will end up more liberal than the U.S.

Considering you don't have to be a resident of either state to start such a petition, and this particular petitioning method has a guaranteed 0% chance of success, I'm guessing it was either for the lulz or to get news coverage. Either way, the media seem to have indulged them to some degree.

[spoiler=silliness and false history

On the plus side, "forfill" as a new spelling of 'fulfill' makes me positively giddy. I don't know why. It tickles my brainpiece. Also, language change excites me, and this seems to be a change with legs.

Cue the minority of liberals (for lack of a better word) who have bigoted, regional-supremacist views about dialects of the South, though...

Ironically the best friends of our new little secessionist Jesusland might be Israel.

What could possibly be ironic about it? Jesusland is already the largest base of support for continued US/Israel [relat/humili]ations. To them, Jewish government in Jerusalem is a necessary prerequisite for the End Times, when they get to play with virgins or whatever. (;))

Any reasonable person who supports the virtues of sovereignty and self determination would support the South's independence.

Forcing people to be part of your union generally does not end well (see Balkans).

This isn't the Balkans. We have a federation of unitary States that have signed a pact. This pact allows states to break off in a couple of different ways. This form of petitioning, while meaningless and powerless, is not one of them.

The US has been forcing many people to be part of its union, and it's not going to end anytime soon. It's more likely that the Constitution will be rewritten than that any part of the union would secede under the current one.

You're really holding up three collapsed empires as the sad, sad consequence of self-determination? It is a historical tragedy that Turks no longer crack the whip on Arab nations? We should shed a tear because the Legions were withdrawn from Northern Europe?

Don't start a needless war to prevent me from leaving. Convince me that I should stay voluntarily.

The issue isn't with you leaving. It's with you taking half the country on your way out the door.
You can leave whenever you want, that's your right. But we aren't going to redraw the borders of North America because a few people are upset about the outcome of an election.

Do you understand how inconsequential these petitions are? Do you know how they were formed?

Clearly people haven't learned from vietnam.

The Viet Cong had an extremely dense jungle to hide in.

Also, they had practice in guerilla warfare by the time the U.S. Armed Forces showed up, and the latter divided in revolt, disillusionment and discontent, pulled by force from a society that was against war and doubly against this war.

And those 8 hunting rifles Jim-Bob has are going to do him so much good against mortars.

Honestly i wish this issue was over something a bit more i don't know world defining then the outcome of some election

I don't think you understand this issue. The issue was made in about as insignificant a way as possible. It is perfectly commensurate with something so silly as losing one election.

Ugh.

Secession is one of the great ways to let the government try out its new "How to crack down on the South" plan is wants to use.

I'd happily (As a future American soldier, hopefully) march into any state that secedes from the Union. Its like kicking the forefathers in the dick.

These 'forefathers' of yours (not mine) were slave owners and traders, who embedded racism, sexism and classism deeply into our society at its founding. They were apologists not just for slavery, not just for timocracy, but also for the genocide of native Americans that made the states possible. In so doing, they smashed not just warring tribes but also anarchic societies where equality and revolution were not just historic dreams but daily lived reality. Your 'forefathers' can take one right in the collective dick as far as I'm concerned.

WHAT?! will the states succeed in trying to secede? man, a 28- state union would be really strange. Obama is not really that bad.

Have you tried reading? What, we're supposed to serve it up on a silver platter for you? People have been answering this question for dozens of pages now.

Also posted on The Washington Post

Last time I checked I think I found 24 states who have petitions, I might be wrong


The thing about this is, there has never been such a widespread secession movement since The Civil War. Granted, there has been talks of certain states seceding but never have 24 states formed petitioned to secede before. Its quite startling.

24 states are not petitioning to secede now, either.

These have gone completely unanswered since I started asking them, as far as I can tell, but here we go again, just for the hell of it:

Who formed these petitions?
Residents of these states?
Legislators?
Governors?
U.S. citizens, even?
How do you know?

Who signed these petitions?
A lot of people?
Residents of these states?
U.S. citizens, even?
How do you know?

Punish, and slaughter everyone one of those right-wing scum that dare to think that they can challenge Federal authority.


Lock up all possible right-wingers, conservatives, libertarians and neo-Confederates in jail until this blows over.

I don't think you understand what America is, and what it means for these 50 states (et al) to have a federal union together.

I wish more people understood that.

I wish more people did not judge men long dead for fighting to defend their way of life and economic stability.

I personally don't agree with Slavery but that does not stop me from seeing what a useful tool it can be.

You're an apologist for slavery, which puts you in the same camp as slavers and slave-drivers, because everyone else can infer from the benefits of their own freedom that apologists for slavery are evil and have cast their lot with the slavers.

Punish, and slaughter everyone one of those right-wing scum that dare to think that they can challenge Federal authority.


Lock up all possible right-wingers, conservatives, libertarians and neo-Confederates in jail until this blows over.

Really hope this is a joke. New Jersey signed a petition to secede as well as New York.

No. They really, really didn't.

This might be general disatisfaction.

It's nothing new or relevant to real things that happen or could happen.

And thats a good way to stir up a revolution and rebellion. Besides, I'm right-wing, and I don't support this.

Then you should understand what it is, and stop making a fool of yourself.

I am torn though. On one hand many of these states are separating in the name of states rights and social conservatism, as well as economic.

They're not separating, and the voice of a single state in favor of secession has yet to be expressed.

And that's a humungous understatement.

Ahh, but it's still in the works, is it not?

No. It never was.

And maybe their goal with these petitions isn't to secede immediately, but bring the issue to the table?

Who is "they"? The states? These tiny petitions are in no way representative of even each state's most rabid right-wingers, let alone the states as a whole. Also, it has not been proven that even one of these petitions was started or signed by even one resident of even one of the states in question.

Building a ship now is a hell of a lot harder than building a ship then. How many military shipyards does the South even have?

Quite a few, actually...

Shouldn't we assume that they're all immediately vulnerable to destruction by the U.S. Navy if it came to that? After all, they're full of U.S. Navy ships, planes and munitions, aren't they?

if you honestly think this will go anywhere, you're just as insane as we already knew you were.

Immediately, probably not. But it's showing growing social discontent,

It shows growing nothing. It is not news that as much as 0.125% of the population of Texas--and it hasn't been proven that even one of the people involved in creating or signing the petition are from Texas, the same with any other state represented in these petitions--supports secession.

breakdown of the efficacy of the superstructure's narrative. Which are probably good signs for the eventual future harboring more active revolutionary sentiments.

It's the same tiny coalition of ultra-right-wingers who want to leave and liberals-and-leftists who want to see them go as ever, plus, undoubtedly, a few trolls.

And the true insanity is actively fighting against one's class interests.

That ship sailed long ago. Its passage is reaffirmed with every election of a Democrat and/or Republican.

They fought for no reason. They could have went with the cotton gin. Too expensive for them? Well too bad, unless they were in their beloved 1% it's their duty to suffer no?

Right it's fine for Hundreds of thousand to go broke, starve and become homeless but we can all be equals in poverty rather then being strong, independent and wealthy.

Well, you had no problem with it when the broken, hungry, homeless, weakened, dependent and poor people were black. That makes you and your argument racist. (Not a flame or bait, just true facts. If there is such a thing as racism anywhere, one example is this exact argument and person.)

I ... err... The Democrats are anything but hippies these days. They're just as brutally imperialist as the republicans of late, if not more so.

Libya, Yemen, Pakistan, Syria, etc....

Nah.. I think they just aim to get America in a more fucked up situtation globally so they can keep bitching about how we are such stupid imperialists...

Democrats are the imperialists. It is leftists who raise anti-imperialist sentiments against the U.S. government, not Democrats.

Puerto Rico will not make up for the loss of 22 states.

Well according to Reich Chancellor President Obama, we actually have 57 states. So there will still be more "loyalist" than Independant states

Your comparison is sick and twisted. Morally speaking, you owe an apology to Jews, but also to Romany people, LGBT people and, sadly considering your zeal for rebellion, anti-Nazi dissenters. They were rounded up, enslaved and killed after Hitler failed to win the vote and successfully intimidated the rightfully elected party into giving him power. Whether you like Obama or not--and I don't, for the record--he was given power by the same electoral process that gave us every other president.

But I see your point. A broken, devastated, war-torn USA (presuming that somehow the secessionists didn't fail immediately, and the Civil War blew up to massive proportions) would be just like your utopia, only without the Kim dynasty forcing the conditions that would cause so many Americans to needlessly die of basic causes such as starvation and exposure, since those would already be in the new status quo. Of course, it wouldn't be quite as wonderful as Best Korea, because Americans would still be able to freely attempt to get into Canada, and eventually rebuild their society instead of being held down eternally by the aforementioned Kims.

Wouldn't it be wonderful, fellas?

Most socialists oppose North Korea. North Korea is committed to an ideology called 'Juche' which even most authoritarian socialists don't support, outside of a few token countries where it's the status quo. On top of all that, American socialists seem to skew much more heavily liberal/libertarian than official "Communist" (state capitalist) regimes. A more appropriate comparison would be France under President Hollande, or Spain under Prime Minister Zapatero, and those two are fraught with other complexities.

I Refuse To Recognize Obama As President So i Fully Support This

And Also its Amuzing that my state is Leading the Revolution

No revolution is being led through these tiny, insignificant petitions, which have nothing do with any of the actual ways that any state could actually secede. If you want to revolt against Obama in an effective way, join your local Occupy and make it (or your corner of it) more amenable to your politics.

If I lived in a state that was trying to push for secession, I'd probably have a fit of depression.

Luckily, there are no such states.

You clearly do not value the concept of a nation, this much is obvious, but pray tell, what makes class superior to it?

Shared interests. The whole population of a nation has few or no common interests, especially a federation like the U.S. However, workers have shared interests with each other and with the homeless, the unemployed, and many/most small business owners; while capitalists (funders, owners) have some degree of common interest with sympathetic managers and with the government they shape with their money.

Shared general income?

Not quite. Shared lack of opportunity is more like it.

Shared hatred of other classes?

It's not about how we feel about them personally. It makes no sense to hate Warren Buffett exactly as much as one hates David Koch, and I doubt many socialists do (even if they have sharp words for both).

It can't be "shared hardships," either, because the hardships a worker faces in one country will differ from those faced by a worker in another.

In degree and scale, yes, but not in any other significant way.

Thus, all it seems to me is a shared hatred for other classes.

There's a whole Internet out there for you to dispel your ignorance with. See the "On Anarchy" link in my sig, for starters. http://www.marxists.org and http://www.libcom.org give other perspectives, as with http://www.anarchistnews.org http://www.ainfos.ca etc.

Who praised the DPRK, and what aspect of it did they praise?

Ah, I see Dokuritsu Nippon did, and specifically praised Juche too. Don't take hir opinions as representative of socialists, please.

For the record, I was socialized as an outcast nerd, and if it had an effect on my politics I would say it made me more of an anti-authoritarian.

[quotes from below were lost due to bad coding on my part. sorry.]
Sure. They still control the House, and can thus block basically any legislation that they can achieve unity against.


Obama is on the right wing of the Democratic Party in terms of economics. On social policy, to call him even a centrist would imply a clarity of vision and unity of purpose that is not at all evident in his positions. He and Warren could scarcely be farther apart without Warren running as a Green or Socialist. It's more appropriate to speak of a Kucinich/Warren wing, but even that is suspect. Occupy is out of left field - Occupiers are likely to be leftist Dems or left of the Party itself, and those groups have opposed Obama for years.


No, you just don't understand American politics or the Democratic Party. It's a little sad that you had to be upbraided by a European on this front. No offense, Ostroeuropa, it's just that you have less of a stake in this than LRE would seem to.


I doubt it. These petitions are insignificant and boost his image as a conciliatory and open-minded bipartisan figure.


Fixed. It has not yet been proven that even a single one of these people lives in any of the states in question.


At least 99.8% of Texans have not signed the petition. It's technically possible that not a single signer is from Texas. So, in that scenario, we'd ironically be looking at a rather dictatorial White House.

[/quote][/quote]
I'll confirm that Farn let you off easy. Real easy.

[Greed and Death]

Forget what I said earlier on Texas.


I fully support Alaskan independence as well. I'm iffy on Texas, and largely opposed to the rest.

So it is about negotiating terms, the military equipment goes to the new southern states.
The debt remains with the yankees.

The only fair distribution to be honest.

[Selsada]

America,
Please keep entertaining me.
It's entertaining.

[Shadowlandistan]

I really hope this would happen.