Secession Movement in the United States

[Zephie]

What like this?

Uh huh. The so-called Greatest Generation was also the backbone of the New Deal coalition, likely to be active in militant industrial trade unions, and generally supportive of the establishment of a strong welfare state. So the comparison fails on the most fundamental level, because the generation that fought in WW2 was more left-wing than the current Occupy Wallstreeters.

Really? Going to use veterans in vain? It wouldn't be the first time libs. spit in veteran's faces.

[Zephie]

They appeared now because nothing f#cking changed in the government. You just stick to your "Obama is God" ideas and I'll stick to my "The entire System is broken" logic

The way I see it, your solution to the broken system is to give up and leave. Mine is to stay and fix what needs fixing. We may disagree on what those things are - I'm sure we do - but I don't support the coward's way out.

Can't fix it when the elections are fixed. There's only one option and we all know it, and no one has the balls.

[Tunasai]

What like this?

Uh huh. The so-called Greatest Generation was also the backbone of the New Deal coalition, likely to be active in militant industrial trade unions, and generally supportive of the establishment of a strong welfare state. So the comparison fails on the most fundamental level, because the generation that fought in WW2 was more left-wing than the current Occupy Wallstreeters.

Oh you have to be dreaming

FDR was a godawful President but I'm talking about the work ethic. Welfare State? You think they had a welfare state? They had nothing through the 30s, and no welfare even after that. You want to see a welfare state, look around you. West Europe, US, those are welfare states!

My grandpa grew up in the 30s, he was the greatest generation. HE was dirt poor, dad farmed a small piece of land. He payed for his own college by working, he never got welfare, his dad never got Social Security or food stamps, even though they were dirt poor.

These "left wingers" are about as left wing as the Moderate Side of the Republican Party.

[The Corparation]

What like this?

Uh huh. The so-called Greatest Generation was also the backbone of the New Deal coalition, likely to be active in militant industrial trade unions, and generally supportive of the establishment of a strong welfare state. So the comparison fails on the most fundamental level, because the generation that fought in WW2 was more left-wing than the current Occupy Wallstreeters.

Silly, he posted a political Cartoon thus his argument is flawless and he has superior debating skills. Your continued use of logic and reason agaisnt him are useless against his .jpeg

[Trotskylvania]

Uh huh. Right. Sure, whatever you say. Funny, though, these petitions only appeared now. But hey, whatevs.

They appeared now because nothing f#cking changed in the government. You just stick to your "Obama is God" ideas and I'll stick to my "The entire System is broken" logic

And you don't seem to think it's relevant at all that these petitions only started after Obama won re-election.

This is not indicative, in anyway, of the kind of behavior of people who think the whole system is broken. These are spoilsports who are so right-wing, that they're pissed the moderate conservative beat the opportunist reactionary and the true-believer reactionary that they want to pack up and leave.

The people signing these petitions are the same idiots who post uninformed statuses on facebook about "Thinking of moving to Australia," to escape "The Obama Regime", ignorant of the fact that the Labor Party is in power in Australia, and the prime minister is a relatively left-wing member of the party.

[Tunasai]

They appeared now because nothing f#cking changed in the government. You just stick to your "Obama is God" ideas and I'll stick to my "The entire System is broken" logic

The way I see it, your solution to the broken system is to give up and leave. Mine is to stay and fix what needs fixing. We may disagree on what those things are - I'm sure we do - but I don't support the coward's way out.

When the hell did I say we should leave? I said "No one is going to secede. They are just making an example."

Cowards way out? My family has bled for this nation from beginning to end, we have farmed honest land handed through the generations and lived the American dream. I'm not giving up, I'm just using logic.

If there was a Civil War, I'd would fight FOR THE UNION. Don't start spewing your crap, actually read my posts.

[Zephie]

The way I see it, your solution to the broken system is to give up and leave. Mine is to stay and fix what needs fixing. We may disagree on what those things are - I'm sure we do - but I don't support the coward's way out.

When the hell did I say we should leave? I said "No one is going to secede. They are just making an example."

Cowards way out? My family has bled for this nation from beginning to end, we have farmed honest land handed through the generations and lived the American dream. I'm not giving up, I'm just using logic.

If there was a Civil War, I'd would fight FOR THE UNION. Don't start spewing your crap, actually read my posts.

You didn't have to go that far. Seceding isn't even leaving. You're staying in your own state, but you don't have to carry the problems of the Federal government on your back. Funny how a die-hard lib. will defend some micro-nation in Asia or Middle East to have their own nation, but seceding from the welfare nation is cowardly.

[Tunasai]

They appeared now because nothing f#cking changed in the government. You just stick to your "Obama is God" ideas and I'll stick to my "The entire System is broken" logic

And you don't seem to think it's relevant at all that these petitions only started after Obama won re-election.

This is not indicative, in anyway, of the kind of behavior of people who think the whole system is broken. These are spoilsports who are so right-wing, that they're pissed the moderate conservative beat the opportunist reactionary and the true-believer reactionary that they want to pack up and leave.

The people signing these petitions are the same idiots who post uninformed statuses on facebook about "Thinking of moving to Australia," to escape "The Obama Regime", ignorant of the fact that the Labor Party is in power in Australia, and the prime minister is a relatively left-wing member of the party.

I think its relevant that these petitions started after the general elections when people realized NOTHING CHANGED. That we are headed over a fiscal cliff and our government is incompetent to stop it.

I'm not saying Obama's re-election had nothing to do with it, I'm saying it wasn't the driving force.

[The Cookish States]

They appeared now because nothing f#cking changed in the government. You just stick to your "Obama is God" ideas and I'll stick to my "The entire System is broken" logic

The way I see it, your solution to the broken system is to give up and leave. Mine is to stay and fix what needs fixing. We may disagree on what those things are - I'm sure we do - but I don't support the coward's way out.

George Washington was a coward? Ghandi?

No. One should not allow their people to be impoverished and indebted, even if it is their own government making it so.

Seriously, all of you drop the whole "I'm right wing/left wing" thing, it isn't about parties, it's bigger than that. It's about proving a point, and possibly swaying Washington to be more fiscally intelligent by making them understand that they may actually have something to lose from all of this. As of now, their pensions are locked in, they don't feel the desperation we (as Americans) feel. Disconnection is what is ripping this country apart, little by little, bit by bit.

[Tunasai]

When the hell did I say we should leave? I said "No one is going to secede. They are just making an example."

Cowards way out? My family has bled for this nation from beginning to end, we have farmed honest land handed through the generations and lived the American dream. I'm not giving up, I'm just using logic.

If there was a Civil War, I'd would fight FOR THE UNION. Don't start spewing your crap, actually read my posts.

You didn't have to go that far. Seceding isn't even leaving. You're staying in your own state, but you don't have to carry the problems of the Federal government on your back. Funny how a die-hard lib. will defend some micro-nation in Asia or Middle East to have their own nation, but seceding from the welfare nation is cowardly.

Nation is hardly what my family fought for. We vote based on who gives us the most money. We vote for corporate welfare and the irresponsible CEOs who screwed the company up. Let them fail, hell, let this government fail, let it go over the cliff. Maybe then we will learn our lesson

[The Corparation]

When the hell did I say we should leave? I said "No one is going to secede. They are just making an example."

Cowards way out? My family has bled for this nation from beginning to end, we have farmed honest land handed through the generations and lived the American dream. I'm not giving up, I'm just using logic.

If there was a Civil War, I'd would fight FOR THE UNION. Don't start spewing your crap, actually read my posts.

You didn't have to go that far. Seceding isn't even leaving. You're staying in your own state, but you don't have to carry the problems of the Federal government on your back.

And even better, for many of the southern states, the Federal Government no longer has them on its back. It always stuck me as funny that a lot of the people in the deep southern states that often scream for secession are screaming over issues that are most prevalent in their own state. Many of those states receive more federal funds then they pay in, quitting the Union would end quite badly for them. Honestly of the states with the bigger secession crowds, only Texas's would have any chance to survive on its own. Although they too often take in more federal funds then they contribute.

[Zephie]

You didn't have to go that far. Seceding isn't even leaving. You're staying in your own state, but you don't have to carry the problems of the Federal government on your back.

And even better, for many of the southern states, the Federal Government no longer has them on its back. It always stuck me as funny that a lot of the people in the deep southern states that often scream for secession are screaming over issues that are most prevalent in their own state. Many of those states receive more federal funds then they pay in, quitting the Union would end quite badly for them. Honestly of the states with the bigger secession crowds, only Texas's would have any chance to survive on its own. Although they too often take in more federal funds then they contribute.

Texas has the 2nd highest GDP of all the states and I believe is the 15th largest economy in the world. It doesn't need the Federal Government. It actually was its own Republic before.

[The Cookish States]

And even better, for many of the southern states, the Federal Government no longer has them on its back. It always stuck me as funny that a lot of the people in the deep southern states that often scream for secession are screaming over issues that are most prevalent in their own state. Many of those states receive more federal funds then they pay in, quitting the Union would end quite badly for them. Honestly of the states with the bigger secession crowds, only Texas's would have any chance to survive on its own. Although they too often take in more federal funds then they contribute.

Texas has the 2nd highest GDP of all the states and I believe is the 15th largest economy in the world. It doesn't need the Federal Government.

There would be a large amount of federal funding to repay after secession, but it would still be less than the debt-per-capita the U.S has. Plus, Texas is fiscally a lot smarter (or perhaps more agile, managing small things is easier) than the U.S.

[The Corparation]

And even better, for many of the southern states, the Federal Government no longer has them on its back. It always stuck me as funny that a lot of the people in the deep southern states that often scream for secession are screaming over issues that are most prevalent in their own state. Many of those states receive more federal funds then they pay in, quitting the Union would end quite badly for them. Honestly of the states with the bigger secession crowds, only Texas's would have any chance to survive on its own. Although they too often take in more federal funds then they contribute.

Texas has the 2nd highest GDP of all the states and I believe is the 15th largest economy in the world. It doesn't need the Federal Government. It actually was its own Republic before.

Texas has a chance, but go back a couple pages and someone posted a source or two on how over the past 25 years Texas has on average taken in more then its contributed. Texas may have a powerful Economy but it is still reliant on the federal goverment quite often. Almost all the states have to occasionally. And Texas in the 1850s =/= Texas of today. Bringing that up is pointless.

[Trotskylvania]

Uh huh. The so-called Greatest Generation was also the backbone of the New Deal coalition, likely to be active in militant industrial trade unions, and generally supportive of the establishment of a strong welfare state. So the comparison fails on the most fundamental level, because the generation that fought in WW2 was more left-wing than the current Occupy Wallstreeters.

Oh you have to be dreaming

FDR was a godawful President but I'm talking about the work ethic. Welfare State? You think they had a welfare state? They had nothing through the 30s, and no welfare even after that. You want to see a welfare state, look around you. West Europe, US, those are welfare states!

My grandpa grew up in the 30s, he was the greatest generation. HE was dirt poor, dad farmed a small piece of land. He payed for his own college by working, he never got welfare, his dad never got Social Security or food stamps, even though they were dirt poor.

These "left wingers" are about as left wing as the Moderate Side of the Republican Party.

Uh huh. No welfare state. I guess we're forgetting about the establishment of Social Security, the Works Progress Administration, the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, the United States Housing Authority, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, the FDIC, and the numerous smaller aid programs, particularly to migrant farmworkers. Can't forget about the G.I. Bill, which lavished huge amounts of government aid on WW2 veterans and their families. Hell, the first Food Stamp program was implemented under FDR, in 1939! If that doesn't count as a welfare state, then I don't know what does.

Or how about the federal government sponsored unionization drives, the proposals for the state take over of the railroads and other national industries? The New Deal coalition was very, very left-wing in its political orientation, and to deny that is to falsify history.

Of course, you probably didn't know that this same Greatest Generation went home after WW2, and largely voted for Harry Truman or Henry Wallace in 1948, both of whom very publicly supported the creation of a cradle to the grave welfare state, including a single-payer health care system, public housing, and the nationalization of the railroads...the list goes on.

I'm afraid you really don't know what you're talking about, because most of what was casually accepted during the Greatest Generation's prime would be consider far too left-wing to even be considered today.

[Trotskylvania]

Uh huh. The so-called Greatest Generation was also the backbone of the New Deal coalition, likely to be active in militant industrial trade unions, and generally supportive of the establishment of a strong welfare state. So the comparison fails on the most fundamental level, because the generation that fought in WW2 was more left-wing than the current Occupy Wallstreeters.

Really? Going to use veterans in vain? It wouldn't be the first time libs. spit in veteran's faces.

He made the claim. I bludgeoned him over the head with the cold, hard reality that didn't fit with his preconceptions. And having worked in a nursing home, and hearing the stories these WW2 veterans told, I have no desire to idolize them. Forgive me if I won't idolize a group of people who can sit sixty years later and laugh about fragging their fellow soldiers because they were black, or raping civilians and plundering their homes.

You see, that's the thing about senility. Eventually, you stop realizing that you shouldn't share some things.

[Zephie]

Oh you have to be dreaming

FDR was a godawful President but I'm talking about the work ethic. Welfare State? You think they had a welfare state? They had nothing through the 30s, and no welfare even after that. You want to see a welfare state, look around you. West Europe, US, those are welfare states!

My grandpa grew up in the 30s, he was the greatest generation. HE was dirt poor, dad farmed a small piece of land. He payed for his own college by working, he never got welfare, his dad never got Social Security or food stamps, even though they were dirt poor.

These "left wingers" are about as left wing as the Moderate Side of the Republican Party.

Uh huh. No welfare state. I guess we're forgetting about the establishment of Social Security, the Works Progress Administration, the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, the United States Housing Authority, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, the FDIC, and the numerous smaller aid programs, particularly to migrant farmworkers. Can't forget about the G.I. Bill, which lavished huge amounts of government aid on WW2 veterans and their families. Hell, the first Food Stamp program was implemented under FDR, in 1939! If that doesn't count as a welfare state, then I don't know what does.

Or how about the federal government sponsored unionization drives, the proposals for the state take over of the railroads and other national industries? The New Deal coalition was very, very left-wing in its political orientation, and to deny that is to falsify history.

Of course, you probably didn't know that this same Greatest Generation went home after WW2, and largely voted for Harry Truman or Henry Wallace in 1948, both of whom very publicly supported the creation of a cradle to the grave welfare state, including a single-payer health care system, public housing, and the nationalization of the railroads...the list goes on.

I'm afraid you really don't know what you're talking about, because most of what was casually accepted during the Greatest Generation's prime would be consider far too left-wing to even be considered today.

There's a big difference between earning your social security and being giving food stamps and housing on somebody else's dime. Not sure if I had to tell you there's a difference or you just knew and deliberately didn't recognize it. Not like helping people is bad, but it's gotten to the point in this country that there's no incentive to work. Once poor people are given free health care, hell, I'm thinking of not working and just doing some under the table work as spending money.

[Grimlundt]

Secession is a complex matter.
On one hand, you have a Human Right to political "independence" ... but what does that really mean?
Here in Australia, we have Aboriginal separatists.
They really have no chance of getting their way ... it's really a kind of protest?
Anyway, in the future, I would think the right to secession will be felt to be a human right ...

p.s. You American taxpayers do know that it is YOUR taxes that pay for welfare. It's your right, not a privilege as some evil men try to make out.

[Trotskylvania]

Uh huh. No welfare state. I guess we're forgetting about the establishment of Social Security, the Works Progress Administration, the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, the United States Housing Authority, the Agricultural Adjustment Act, the FDIC, and the numerous smaller aid programs, particularly to migrant farmworkers. Can't forget about the G.I. Bill, which lavished huge amounts of government aid on WW2 veterans and their families. Hell, the first Food Stamp program was implemented under FDR, in 1939! If that doesn't count as a welfare state, then I don't know what does.

Or how about the federal government sponsored unionization drives, the proposals for the state take over of the railroads and other national industries? The New Deal coalition was very, very left-wing in its political orientation, and to deny that is to falsify history.

Of course, you probably didn't know that this same Greatest Generation went home after WW2, and largely voted for Harry Truman or Henry Wallace in 1948, both of whom very publicly supported the creation of a cradle to the grave welfare state, including a single-payer health care system, public housing, and the nationalization of the railroads...the list goes on.

I'm afraid you really don't know what you're talking about, because most of what was casually accepted during the Greatest Generation's prime would be consider far too left-wing to even be considered today.

There's a big difference between earning your social security and being giving food stamps and housing on somebody else's dime. Not sure if I had to tell you there's a difference or you just knew and deliberately didn't recognize it. Not like helping people is bad, but it's gotten to the point in this country that there's no incentive to work. Once poor people are given free health care, hell, I'm thinking of not working and just doing some under the table work as spending money.

Considering that both happened under the New Deal, any distinction, even if there were any, would be moot for the purposes of this argument.

If you think there's no incentive to work, you apparently have never been poor, and seen how little your really get and how hard you have to work for it. Here's a hint, kiddo: it ain't a walk in the park. Take it from someone who grew up poor, and is working 30 hours a week in addition to going to college: there ain't nothing easy about poverty.

[National Bohemia]

There's a big difference between earning your social security and being giving food stamps and housing on somebody else's dime. Not sure if I had to tell you there's a difference or you just knew and deliberately didn't recognize it. Not like helping people is bad, but it's gotten to the point in this country that there's no incentive to work. Once poor people are given free health care, hell, I'm thinking of not working and just doing some under the table work as spending money.

Considering that both happened under the New Deal, any distinction, even if there were any, would be moot for the purposes of this argument.

If you think there's no incentive to work, you apparently have never been poor, and seen how little your really get and how hard you have to work for it. Here's a hint, kiddo: it ain't a walk in the park. Take it from someone who grew up poor, and is working 30 hours a week in addition to going to college: there ain't nothing easy about poverty.

You mean you aren't issued a free SUV (with gas), big-screen TV, and fancy apartment? I don't understand!

[Zephie]

There's a big difference between earning your social security and being giving food stamps and housing on somebody else's dime. Not sure if I had to tell you there's a difference or you just knew and deliberately didn't recognize it. Not like helping people is bad, but it's gotten to the point in this country that there's no incentive to work. Once poor people are given free health care, hell, I'm thinking of not working and just doing some under the table work as spending money.

Considering that both happened under the New Deal, any distinction, even if there were any, would be moot for the purposes of this argument.

If you think there's no incentive to work, you apparently have never been poor, and seen how little your really get and how hard you have to work for it. Here's a hint, kiddo: it ain't a walk in the park. Take it from someone who grew up poor, and is working 30 hours a week in addition to going to college: there ain't nothing easy about poverty.

Oh boohoo, you work part time while going to college. So do millions of others. I worked 1 job during high school and 2 during college and basically had no social life. And since I was a design student all the classes were twice as long. I was at school 40 hours a week & not counting transit time. My great uncle worked 3 jobs most of his life, meanwhile people whine and cry for more handouts while doing nothing to help themselves.

[Cannot think of a name]

Uh huh. The so-called Greatest Generation was also the backbone of the New Deal coalition, likely to be active in militant industrial trade unions, and generally supportive of the establishment of a strong welfare state. So the comparison fails on the most fundamental level, because the generation that fought in WW2 was more left-wing than the current Occupy Wallstreeters.

Really? Going to use veterans in vain? It wouldn't be the first time libs. spit in veteran's faces.

Oh man, please please please continue to use this tact, tell your party representatives that this is totally working. With your hard work, maybe the Democrats might even be able to take the House back in 2014.

[Trotskylvania]

meanwhile people whine and cry for more handouts while doing nothing to help themselves.

On what planet do you spend most of your time?

[Zephie]

meanwhile people whine and cry for more handouts while doing nothing to help themselves.

On what planet do you spend most of your time?

NJ

[Cannot think of a name]

Considering that both happened under the New Deal, any distinction, even if there were any, would be moot for the purposes of this argument.

If you think there's no incentive to work, you apparently have never been poor, and seen how little your really get and how hard you have to work for it. Here's a hint, kiddo: it ain't a walk in the park. Take it from someone who grew up poor, and is working 30 hours a week in addition to going to college: there ain't nothing easy about poverty.

Oh boohoo, you work part time while going to college. So do millions of others. I worked 1 job during high school and 2 during college and basically had no social life. And since I was a design student all the classes were twice as long. I was at school 40 hours a week & not counting transit time. My great uncle worked 3 jobs most of his life, meanwhile people whine and cry for more handouts while doing nothing to help themselves.

"Because people have" is an incomplete reason for that to be the norm or the most preferable method to adopt.