Theodicy

[Orcoa]

I have asked this same question, after thinking for a long while I think I have a bit of a answer.

God is not "Good" or "Evil" Since he is all powerful and all knowing, he/she/it would be more I would say Lawful Neutral (Yes I used D&D terms, sue me )

He would be the balance between two sides of the universal coin, One is good which is represented by Heaven, and the other Evil is represented by Hell. He would keep both sides in order, keeping a sort of Ying Yang of sorts as each side needs each other for Evil needs Good to rebel agasint and Good needs Hell to defeat.


At lest that is what I think

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

elaborate

We are referring to God preventing evil, which means we only have to talk about deism for this discussion. Bringing in scripture to talk about God and what he does requires you to prove scripture as truth.

Ah, ok.

In that case there is no proof for any side since just saying "There is an allknowin blah..." leaves too many properties and characteristics off the table, but I assumed for the sake of discussion that he meant the Abrahamic, or that the text would be allowed from me as at least personal proof.

If I were holding my real positions, I would ask how he knew God was there.

[Giroad]

It of cource depends on what you define as good, according to the us government, imposing sanctions that kill 500,000 iranian children as "a price worth paying"

[The Godly Nations]

The problems for us, Christians, then, is not to try and reconcile a Good God with Evil, but to prove an Omnimalevolent God.

[Norsklow]

It of cource depends on what you define as good, according to the us government, imposing sanctions that kill 500,000 iranian children as "a price worth paying"

That is contingent upon Iran failing to take the appropriate actions. As in carrying out marching orders without bitching, moaning, whining or other forms of non-compliance.

[The Godly Nations]

It of cource depends on what you define as good, according to the us government, imposing sanctions that kill 500,000 iranian children as "a price worth paying"

Absolute Good is the privation of Evil, as all things are, to a lesser or greater degree, Evil, such as killing half a million Persian Children to spite their Evil Theocratic Leaders, send out Drones to kill ass backward shit famers in Northern Pakistan for no other reason then they may be working for the Evil Al Queda organisation, we define Good as the degree of evil as far as humans can possibly go from the natural state of evil.

[Giroad]

It of cource depends on what you define as good, according to the us government, imposing sanctions that kill 500,000 iranian children as "a price worth paying"

That is contingent upon Iran failing to take the appropriate actions. As in carrying out marching orders without bitching, moaning, whining or other forms of non-compliance.

So if a corrupt government dos something wrong, kill innocent children.

if this were the case, then america wouldn't have any children left.

[Norsklow]

That is contingent upon Iran failing to take the appropriate actions. As in carrying out marching orders without bitching, moaning, whining or other forms of non-compliance.

So if a corrupt government dos something wrong, kill innocent children.

if this were the case, then america wouldn't have any children left.

Again, that constitutes trying to argue.

[The Godly Nations]

I have asked this same question, after thinking for a long while I think I have a bit of a answer.

God is not "Good" or "Evil" Since he is all powerful and all knowing, he/she/it would be more I would say Lawful Neutral (Yes I used D&D terms, sue me )

He would be the balance between two sides of the universal coin, One is good which is represented by Heaven, and the other Evil is represented by Hell. He would keep both sides in order, keeping a sort of Ying Yang of sorts as each side needs each other for Evil needs Good to rebel agasint and Good needs Hell to defeat.


At lest that is what I think

So, we have a God of apathy?

How is something like, say, the various atrocities of the world 'balanced', in any mean, by something 'Good'?

[Orcoa]

I have asked this same question, after thinking for a long while I think I have a bit of a answer.

God is not "Good" or "Evil" Since he is all powerful and all knowing, he/she/it would be more I would say Lawful Neutral (Yes I used D&D terms, sue me )

He would be the balance between two sides of the universal coin, One is good which is represented by Heaven, and the other Evil is represented by Hell. He would keep both sides in order, keeping a sort of Ying Yang of sorts as each side needs each other for Evil needs Good to rebel agasint and Good needs Hell to defeat.


At lest that is what I think

So, we have a God of apathy?

How is something like, say, the various atrocities of the world 'balanced', in any mean, by something 'Good'?

By the actions of men and women, plus the Coming of Jesus and other special people like that help as well.

It is Man that is the counter-balance to the whole thing since Angels are inherently Good and Demons are inherently Evil (Most of the time) and Man can be both, it comes with having Free Will.

In many ways, We are truly made in God's Image because we can choose like He/She/It can. Choice is a powerful thing...for both good or evil.

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

So, we have a God of apathy?

How is something like, say, the various atrocities of the world 'balanced', in any mean, by something 'Good'?

By the actions of men and women, plus the Coming of Jesus and other special people like that help as well.

It is Man that is the counter-balance to the whole thing since Angels are inherently Good and Demons are inherently Evil (Most of the time) and Man can be both, it comes with having Free Will.

Satan

Your argument is invalid

[Orcoa]

By the actions of men and women, plus the Coming of Jesus and other special people like that help as well.

It is Man that is the counter-balance to the whole thing since Angels are inherently Good and Demons are inherently Evil (Most of the time) and Man can be both, it comes with having Free Will.

Satan

Your argument is invalid

I said most of the time, Things are not as simple when we deal with the Subject of Satan since there are many different ideas on him like the Jews thinking he is still with God but he works as a Enemy of man Etc.

Plus Satan is "Different" then most other angels since he himself was "Special" as he was a Archangel at the time before his Rebellion (If you believe in such things)

[The Godly Nations]

So, we have a God of apathy?

How is something like, say, the various atrocities of the world 'balanced', in any mean, by something 'Good'?

By the actions of men and women, plus the Coming of Jesus and other special people like that help as well.

It is Man that is the counter-balance to the whole thing since Angels are inherently Good and Demons are inherently Evil (Most of the time) and Man can be both, it comes with having Free Will.

Yet, if man is the counterbalance, angels are good, and demons are bad, then angels, by their 'goodness' would intervene to help sufferers of the bad, regardless of whether they are good or not, yet, this is clearly not the case, as humans do suffer evil. Humans, additionally, are naturally inclined towards evil, therefore, this idea of counterbalance would put man at the same level of Demons, would it not? Therefore, where, then, is the balance if Man and Demon is evil, and result in common misery, Angels are good but impotent to relieve any form of misery, and God is apathetic. It is more sensible, I think, to say that God is Absolutely Evil, Omnimalevolent, and he encompass every degree of evil, so, being Omnipresent, there is no room for the privation of Evil, Absolute Good, and therefore, everything is Evil.

[Nidaria]

By the actions of men and women, plus the Coming of Jesus and other special people like that help as well.

It is Man that is the counter-balance to the whole thing since Angels are inherently Good and Demons are inherently Evil (Most of the time) and Man can be both, it comes with having Free Will.

Satan

Your argument is invalid

Most of the evil in the world comes from humans themselves, that does not Satan from influencing and causing further evil.

[Orcoa]

By the actions of men and women, plus the Coming of Jesus and other special people like that help as well.

It is Man that is the counter-balance to the whole thing since Angels are inherently Good and Demons are inherently Evil (Most of the time) and Man can be both, it comes with having Free Will.

Yet, if man is the counterbalance, angels are good, and demons are bad, then angels, by their 'goodness' would intervene to help sufferers of the bad, regardless of whether they are good or not, yet, this is clearly not the case, as humans do suffer evil. Humans, additionally, are naturally inclined towards evil, therefore, this idea of counterbalance would put man at the same level of Demons, would it not? Therefore, where, then, is the balance if Man and Demon is evil, and result in common misery, Angels are good but impotent to relieve any form of misery, and God is apathetic. It is more sensible, I think, to say that God is Absolutely Evil, Omnimalevolent, and he encompass every degree of evil, so, being Omnipresent, there is no room for the privation of Evil, Absolute Good, and therefore, everything is Evil.

To you it's Sensible but that is why Religion is such a heated topic since with Different people come different opinions on this kind of matter.

So Lets just say to agree to disagree

[The Godly Nations]

Satan

Your argument is invalid

Most of the evil in the world comes from humans themselves, that does not Satan from influencing and causing further evil.

Prove that there is Good at all, rather than degrees of Evil.

[The Land Fomerly Known as Ligerplace]

Satan

Your argument is invalid

Most of the evil in the world comes from humans themselves, that does not Satan from influencing and causing further evil.

Angels are inherently Good.

Satan was an angel.

Only being technical, no further than that. As he said above, even taking Satan into account there are still multiple interpretations of him.

[The Godly Nations]

Yet, if man is the counterbalance, angels are good, and demons are bad, then angels, by their 'goodness' would intervene to help sufferers of the bad, regardless of whether they are good or not, yet, this is clearly not the case, as humans do suffer evil. Humans, additionally, are naturally inclined towards evil, therefore, this idea of counterbalance would put man at the same level of Demons, would it not? Therefore, where, then, is the balance if Man and Demon is evil, and result in common misery, Angels are good but impotent to relieve any form of misery, and God is apathetic. It is more sensible, I think, to say that God is Absolutely Evil, Omnimalevolent, and he encompass every degree of evil, so, being Omnipresent, there is no room for the privation of Evil, Absolute Good, and therefore, everything is Evil.

To you it's Sensible but that is why Religion is such a heated topic since with Different people come different opinions on this kind of matter.

So Lets just say to agree to disagree

I would rather you provide a reasoned argument over why you do not agree.

[Orcoa]

To you it's Sensible but that is why Religion is such a heated topic since with Different people come different opinions on this kind of matter.

So Lets just say to agree to disagree

I would rather you provide a reasoned argument over why you do not agree.

That would be hard from me since...well I'm not a very good Debater

I just wanted to state my opinion and nothing more hahaha

[United Christian Imperium]

Even for those of us who born-again Christians who have studied the subject, the answer can, at times, be difficult to explain; particularly to the lost. But to try to sum it up in as short as possible -- since, to offer a long, drawn-out, and thoroughly-researched discussion would only serve to generate further ignorance from those who would choose to skip most of it -- let me try this:

God created the Heavens and the Earth. He did so in 6 literal days and rested on the 7th, thus (in addition to all of existence) creating the 7 day week. In all of His work He did, He said it was good. There was no such thing as sin, nor death. Some time later, there was rebellion in Heaven when one of His created beings, an Angel named Lucifer, loved himself more than his creator, and twisted his own conscience to become Satan. This same fallen Angel convinced a third of the Angels to join him in this vanity and attempted to replace God as Lord of Heaven. He failed, and was cast to Earth (not Hell, mind you). Sometime before, during, or after these events (unknown) except that Lucifer had to become Satan before he tempted Eve, Satan (in the form of a serpent (probably possessing an actual snake of some kind)) wanted to hurt God's beautiful creation through temptation to sin (which brings death). Adam and Eve, naive as they were, listened to this tempter, ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus were denied access to the Tree of Life. Having been designed to live in paradise for eternity, man was instead relegated to live in turmoil (temporarily), grow old, die, and go to hell and (eventually) to the Lake of Fire (which was prepared as a place to send the Devil and his Angels after their rebellion). Now God, though a just God who cannot allow sin to enter the perfect place of Heaven, is also a loving God and He desires to restore us (fallen mankind) to a right relationship with Himself. Through His love for us, He purposed to send His one and only Son, who would be called Jesus, to become a perfect blood sacrifice for all of us, that, through atonement for sins, we might have a path (the only path) to eternity with God in Heaven (instead of eternal anguish in Hell).

About 2000 years ago, Jesus of Nazareth willingly became a lamb to the slaughter by allowing Himself to be taken up on a cross and executed by the Romans at the demand of the His own people (the Jews - though not all, just the most vocal). He did this in fulfillment of numerous prophecies from the Old Testament of the Bible. He did this because of His personal love for mankind and for His obedience and love for His Father (of whom Jesus is a part of (along with the Holy Spirit (and (possibly) the "sevenfold spirits" of God)). Now, because of Adam, we live in a fallen world that is destined to undergo more and more suffering until Jesus returns to restore the created world to perfection. Because of Adam, we are a fallen race that is destined to go to hell because of our tainted and dirty hearts and souls. Because of Jesus, we have the opportunity to accept Him who was dead and then was resurrected as our Lord and Savior. By this, anyone who chooses to receive the free gift of Salvation from God, which is the one and only path to God and eternal life with Him, can come to Christ and become one of His own. He will call you brother (or sister) and present you to His Father as one who is redeemed from sin and death. And if anyone chooses to accept the truth of Salvation from Jesus, and believes on Him, he will be saved and will forever have his name written in the Lamb's (that is Jesus) Book of Life.

That is the short version.

Peace to you all.

[The Godly Nations]

Even for those of us who born-again Christians who have studied the subject, the answer can, at times, be difficult to explain; particularly to the lost. But to try to sum it up in as short as possible -- since, to offer a long, drawn-out, and thoroughly-researched discussion would only serve to generate further ignorance from those who would choose to skip most of it -- let me try this:

God created the Heavens and the Earth. He did so in 6 literal days and rested on the 7th, thus (in addition to all of existence) creating the 7 day week. In all of His work He did, He said it was good. There was no such thing as sin, nor death. Some time later, there was rebellion in Heaven when one of His created beings, an Angel named Lucifer, loved himself more than his creator, and twisted his own conscience to become Satan. This same fallen Angel convinced a third of the Angels to join him in this vanity and attempted to replace God as Lord of Heaven. He failed, and was cast to Earth (not Hell, mind you). Sometime before, during, or after these events (unknown) except that Lucifer had to become Satan before he tempted Eve, Satan (in the form of a serpent (probably possessing an actual snake of some kind)) wanted to hurt God's beautiful creation through temptation to sin (which brings death). Adam and Eve, naive as they were, listened to this tempter, ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus were denied access to the Tree of Life. Having been designed to live in paradise for eternity, man was instead relegated to live in turmoil (temporarily), grow old, die, and go to hell and (eventually) to the Lake of Fire (which was prepared as a place to send the Devil and his Angels after their rebellion). Now God, though a just God who cannot allow sin to enter the perfect place of Heaven, is also a loving God and He desires to restore us (fallen mankind) to a right relationship with Himself. Through His love for us, He purposed to send His one and only Son, who would be called Jesus, to become a perfect blood sacrifice for all of us, that, through atonement for sins, we might have a path (the only path) to eternity with God in Heaven (instead of eternal anguish in Hell).

About 2000 years ago, Jesus of Nazareth willingly became a lamb to the slaughter by allowing Himself to be taken up on a cross and executed by the Romans at the demand of the His own people (the Jews - though not all, just the most vocal). He did this in fulfillment of numerous prophecies from the Old Testament of the Bible. He did this because of His personal love for mankind and for His obedience and love for His Father (of whom Jesus is a part of (along with the Holy Spirit (and (possibly) the "sevenfold spirits" of God)). Now, because of Adam, we live in a fallen world that is destined to undergo more and more suffering until Jesus returns to restore the created world to perfection. Because of Adam, we are a fallen race that is destined to go to hell because of our tainted and dirty hearts and souls. Because of Jesus, we have the opportunity to accept Him who was dead and then was resurrected as our Lord and Savior. By this, anyone who chooses to receive the free gift of Salvation from God, which is the one and only path to God and eternal life with Him, can come to Christ and become one of His own. He will call you brother (or sister) and present you to His Father as one who is redeemed from sin and death. And if anyone chooses to accept the truth of Salvation from Jesus, and believes on Him, he will be saved and will forever have his name written in the Lamb's (that is Jesus) Book of Life.

That is the short version.

Peace to you all.

Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience does not imply Omnibenevolence, therefore, we need not say that God is Good, but that he is absolutely Evil, or Omnimalevolent.

First, If God is Absolutely Good, it follows that he would understand the consequence of his action, as such, it would be impossible for him to create something like Satan, he would not tempt man with the forbidden fruit, he would warn them of the serpent etc. As such, it implies, by his Omniscience, a willful evil which allows them to fall into sin and death and misery.

That he sent his son to die, when he is able to change the laws himself also implies another willful evil, to let his son die for no particular reason, while the death and suffering may have been temporary, it was infliction of suffering onto his son all the same. That we need his blood to be saved would have damned any one who as not fortunate enough to live in an era where he has redeemed them with his blood, and live in places that has not yet heard his message, which is also another evil. God could have, by various means, communicate his new covenant throughout the world, but, instead, let everyone who was unfortunate enough not to live in an obscure backwater of the Roman Empire or within areas of the Roman Empire be damned. Such things are, by no means, 'Good'.

Therefore, we can only say that God's action is consistently evil.

[Raeyh]

Omnipotence, Omnipresence, and Omniscience does not imply Omnibenevolence, therefore, we need not say that God is Good, but that he is absolutely Evil, or Omnimalevolent.

Exactly.

[Zottistan]

Because obviously there isn't.

(Image)

Heresy!

[Mawtini]

The word 'Evil' is generally used in two separate connotations. Firstly, it is used for reference to the bad deeds of people; for instance lying, injustice, oppression etc. Secondly, it is used for circumstances and conditions, which people consider as 'not good'; for instance poverty, earthquakes, natural calamities, drought etc. The above question is generally asked from both perspectives, i.e. 'if God is All-good, then why does He allow people to do evil?' and 'if God is All-good, then why is there is so much suffering in this world?'.

As far as the first question is concerned, evil deeds are, in fact, a result of the freewill that God has bestowed upon man, for the particular purpose of the test, during the life of this world. This 'test' would not have been possible without granting man the freewill to deviate from the right path, if man so desired. Thus, the Qur'an (Al-Maaidah 5: 48) says: And had God so desired, He would have made you a single people [and not given you the freedom to deviate], but for the purpose of testing you in what He has bestowed upon you [He granted you freedom]. Thus, 'evil deeds' are only a product of man's deviation from the right path, which, in turn, is the result of the freewill, which God has bestowed upon man. One may, however, say that when man commits a sin - deviates from the right path - God should restrict his freedom. Even though, it was possible for God to do so, yet doing so would effectively have meant taking away man's freewill and, thereby, terminating his test. Hence, for the purpose of making the test possible, it was necessary to allow man to deviate from the prescribed path, if he so desired, without following such deviation with any immediate punishment: as an immediate punishment for doing 'evil' and an immediate reward for doing 'good' would also have rendered the 'test' ineffective and impossible.


The Qur'an also tells us that the 'good' and 'bad' times for a particular individual or a people is not merely a test for that particular individual or people alone. It is also a test for all others, who directly or indirectly come in contact with those individuals or people. For instance, loss of wealth of an individual is a 'test' of perseverance and steadfastness for that particular individual, on the one hand, while on the other, it is a 'test' for those living around that individual, insofar as how they behave and help out that particular individual in his hard times. Similarly, a famine, for instance, is not merely a 'test' for those directly affected by the calamity; on the contrary, it is also a 'test' for those whom God has bestowed with surplus food.

So, yes, evil is in existence because God has allowed it to exist, as a test to man-kind.

This, I agree with

[Furious Grandmothers]

How can evil exist if there is an absolutely Good, absolutely powerful, and allknowing God?

edit:


Good is simply the privation of Evil. As Evil is omnipresent, and God is omnipresent, as these things must, by its all inclusiveness, include each other, God must not, as some wicked men claim, be omnibenevolent, but omnimalevolent. Therefore, having formulated the above, it would appear that Good does not exist. Instead, as God is Omnimalevolent, he includes all degrees of evil, from mildly evil to absolutely evil, ergo, the world is evil because God is absolutely evil. As such, the question is better phrased as 'Why is there Good if there is God?', and the answer is that there isn't, there is only varying degrees of evil, all from God.

You need to define evil, good (which you have defined as the privation of evil), and god. Also, privation of evil doesn't help much to define good. Is there a state of neutrality (0) such that evil has a certain quantity (n) and good, being the privation of evil, is hence (-n)? Or is that state to which you construct your reference frame for comparing good and evil against having a nonzero value, is constant, or inconstant? In any case that reference frame needs to be defined to, else good and evil are arbitrary.

And the >10% infant mortality rates in some parts of Africa are not exactly endearing. What evils have those babies ever done in their short few seconds/minutes/hours/days/weeks of life?