Should kids have the choice to opt out of remembrance day

[Lingray]

Of course they should be able to opt out.

[Zweite Alaje]

They should have to go. It’s the least some people can do to at least go for an hour a year and remember the millions that have sacrificed their lives so these kids can have the opportunity to go to school or have I phone 5 in their pocket .

Except that's the exact opposite of what they have done.

No war ever made anyone's life better. No soldier is deserving of praise for participating in the military, since a military is patently incompatible with a free society.

Yeah pacifism is so awesome, that's the approach that the British and French took with the Nazis, almost cost us all what little freedoms we do have. In order to be free a civilization must have a strong military tradition and a willingness to use it.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Except that's the exact opposite of what they have done.

No war ever made anyone's life better. No soldier is deserving of praise for participating in the military, since a military is patently incompatible with a free society.

Yeah pacifism is so awesome, that's the approach that the British and French took with the Nazis, almost cost us all what little freedoms we do have. In order to be free a civilization must have a strong military tradition and a willingness to use it.

Meanwhile, back here in the real world, those of us who choose not to live in a fantasy land where getting rid of our problems is as simple as bombing them into submission know that responding to violence with violence only begets more violence.

[Free South Califas]

"Should kids have the choice to opt..."

Yes.

[Great Nepal]

If you are not willing to put aside 2 minutes of your day to remember those who died so that you could live free then I believe that they are a sick and stupid person.

Either that, or you dont think standing in silence for 2 minutes out of 525949 minutes is not best way to respect those that died.

What are these "pernicious and authoritarian values"? And more to the point, Soldiers are citizens just as anyone else is. On the subject of being discharged- the countries you have to look out for are the ones where the line between government and military is very blurred. And you still haven't explained how you'd defend your free society in the event of it being invaded.

Those individuals who object to the invasion will engage in peaceful non-compliance with the invasion force.

It's the only long-term tenable solution, since responding to violence with violence only breeds more violence.

"Oh, those little guys there are kinda not obeying our orders. What should we do?"
"Bullet is quite cheap, use them."

[SD_Film Artists]

Yeah pacifism is so awesome, that's the approach that the British and French took with the Nazis, almost cost us all what little freedoms we do have. In order to be free a civilization must have a strong military tradition and a willingness to use it.

Meanwhile, back here in the real world, those of us who choose not to live in a fantasy land where getting rid of our problems is as simple as bombing them into submission know that responding to violence with violence only begets more violence.

Those individuals who object to the invasion will engage in peaceful non-compliance with the invasion force.

It's the only long-term tenable solution, since responding to violence with violence only breeds more violence.

Then you should hope that the invasion force respects human rights and other values central to your nation, as the colour and design of your flag may not be the only things to change.

[Marquesan]

Degeso, thank you for your service.



I, for one, think that the freedom to do what you please on a national holiday is what holidays such as our Veteran's Day and your Rememberance day are about. I spent some time with some Canadians in Afghanistan and you're a good, brave bunch of folks that fought and bled with us.

Your people have earned the right to make those choices for themselves, they've paid for it in blood and no man should hold your feet to the fire and make you observe the holiday in a way that they, not you, see fit. I don't go to Veteran's Day parades, I usually spend that day in my backyard with a few close friends and talk about the times we've had, express gratitude for making it back home and have a few good laughs remembering the men who never did make it home again. I think that's at the heart of what it's about, don't you?

[Horsefish]

but the thing is, it is not a part of the education system. There are plenty of ways students can learn about the world wars and the sacrifices of our conscripted and non-conscripted troops, be it through written essays, research projects, presentations, and etc.

And what better way to learn about it then an interactive event, say, some sort of ceremony that we should hold every year?

Find me someone who has actually learned anything from remberance day. It's standing in silence, not a little 2 minute lecture.

[United Koryo]

They should.

[Free South Califas]

Except that's the exact opposite of what they have done.

No war ever made anyone's life better. No soldier is deserving of praise for participating in the military, since a military is patently incompatible with a free society.

Yeah pacifism is so awesome, that's the approach that the British and French took with the Nazis, almost cost us all what little freedoms we do have. In order to be free a civilization must have a strong military tradition and a willingness to use it.

It's pretty much completely absurd to conflate anti-militarism with British collaborationist policies. And pretty rich, I might add, coming from an admirer of Mein Kampf. (Sorry, it's true - you did admire that book, and you can't wash that away.) Franklin Delano Bluth is in the same tradition as the Russian revolutionaries who forced the new Bolshevik regime to withdraw from WW1 (obviously a very different war), and the French Resistance which opposed the vichy state with effective, organized acts of violent disruption. FDB is resolutely not from the tradition of Neville Chamberlain, who exemplifies much of what I suspect FDB despises in a statist and a collaborator to boot.

[Zweite Alaje]

Yeah pacifism is so awesome, that's the approach that the British and French took with the Nazis, almost cost us all what little freedoms we do have. In order to be free a civilization must have a strong military tradition and a willingness to use it.

Meanwhile, back here in the real world, those of us who choose not to live in a fantasy land where getting rid of our problems is as simple as bombing them into submission know that responding to violence with violence only begets more violence.

You and other pacifist are the ones not seeing life as it actually is, bending over to the enemy never gets one anywhere. Strength and determination is what commands respect, the enemy will think twice before invading if they know their prey will fight furiously and unyieldingly to their very last breath. That is what happened to the US in Vietnam!! The Vietnamese had the correct mindset, repel the enemy at all costs!!! Freedom is more important than life itself!!!

[Laerod]

No, I count it as part of civic education.

Indeed. If there's one thing that teaches you the value of freedom, it's not having any.

[The Federal Republic of Varsal]

How are you going to have a free society if you can't defend it?

Who said it's not being defended? After all, lack of a military is the best defense you can have, because then its pernicious and authoritarian values don't penetrate into mainstream society when its members are discharged.

Your are the dumbest most stuck up bastard I've ever seen. If My country didn't have a military it would probably be the 51st state by now. The military in a democracy is the line of defence of freedom and justice. Its not a tool of oprression, authoritariaism or any such form of that. If it wasn't for your countrys military you probably wouldn't be born or be alive. People like you think the world is a dream land where nothing bad will happen if everyone backs down. I have news for you, it isn't like that. The world is a place full of violent people, always has been, always will. It a goddamn good thing the leaders of the Allies in WWII didn't look through your freaking rose coloured glasses or we'd all be dead. I'm not even going to respond to your comment to this you ungrateful punk.

Suffice to say, I believe students should NOT be allowed to opt out. It is an important part of our heritage, and if we don't eduacate todays youth (and I am one of them) we are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.

[Luziyca]

For me, we just had our ceremony (due to Flextime) today. Quite frankly, they should not opt out of school ceremonies, because, quite frankly, the reason why one goes to school is to LEARN. Attending Remembrance Day services is like a class; you learn of our sacrifices and respect those who have died in the name of the Dominion of Canada. Allowing children to opt out would be extremely disrespectful to those who have died in the name of Canada, and even Newfoundland.

I may be in Saskatchewan, but this day is a sign, that the veterans are getting what they deserve: respect and admiration. Sure, it falls on a Sunday, and thus, we have an in-lieu, but in the end, Remembrance Day is to remember our freedoms, for many Canadians take our freedom for granted.

[Free South Califas]

You and other pacifist are the ones not seeing life as it actually is, bending over to the enemy never gets one anywhere.

Bolding mine. You demonstrate that you don't understand the anti-war movement...

Strength and determination is what commands respect, the enemy with think twice before invading if they know their prey with fight to furiously and unyieldingly to their very last breath. That is what happened to the US in Vietnam!! The Vietnamese had the correct mindset, repel the enemy at all costs!!! Freedom is more important than life itself!!!

...and yet you try to imply solidarity with the Vietnamese people against imperial aggression.

[The Zeonic States]

I don’t know how to speak a answer to this question.

Whether as a citizen of a Nation that encourages Freedom of expression and speech or as a former soldier.

However people who die in the service people who have bled on foreign and domestic soil should be remembered, I know men who never even got brought back to their land of birth they were laid out and buried in ditches along the road.

But to force people to remember them?

No honestly I don’t think that should be the intent of this day, this is a day of recalling people who have given the last thing they could give for their country.

I gave an earlobe and a portion of my knee not nearly as much as some have given but I believe that forcing people to attend a day set out for remembering the dead is spitting on what they died for in this case freedom.

However people should not have the need to be forced to honor these people, If they have no compulsion to see these men honored then how can they honor what these people gave for their Nation?

It’s a quandary I have argued with myself over ever since seeing this thread.

Ultimately the answer to this question is a no but the people who should be there to honor these people this people will not be there if offered choice in the matter.

So is yes also correct?

Sometimes I wish the Tao gave me more wisdom into the heart of such issues but I have no real answer for this question.

[Great Nepal]

For me, we just had our ceremony (due to Flextime) today. Quite frankly, they should not opt out of school ceremonies, because, quite frankly, the reason why one goes to school is to LEARN. Attending Remembrance Day services is like a class; you learn of our sacrifices and respect those who have died in the name of the Dominion of Canada. Allowing children to opt out would be extremely disrespectful to those who have died in the name of Canada, and even Newfoundland.

I may be in Saskatchewan, but this day is a sign, that the veterans are getting what they deserve: respect and admiration. Sure, it falls on a Sunday, and thus, we have an in-lieu, but in the end, Remembrance Day is to remember our freedoms, for many Canadians take our freedom for granted.

Once again, what does standing around in "silence" for 0.00038% of year teach you rather than... including it in history lesson?

[SD_Film Artists]

Bolding mine. You demonstrate that you don't understand the anti-war movement...

If you are part of the anti-war movement, is that the universal unbiased anti-war movement or the "I'm against all military actions of countries who I personally don't like" kind of anti-war movement?

[Saruhan]

For me, we just had our ceremony (due to Flextime) today. Quite frankly, they should not opt out of school ceremonies, because, quite frankly, the reason why one goes to school is to LEARN. Attending Remembrance Day services is like a class; you learn of our sacrifices and respect those who have died in the name of the Dominion of Canada. Allowing children to opt out would be extremely disrespectful to those who have died in the name of Canada, and even Newfoundland.

I may be in Saskatchewan, but this day is a sign, that the veterans are getting what they deserve: respect and admiration. Sure, it falls on a Sunday, and thus, we have an in-lieu, but in the end, Remembrance Day is to remember our freedoms, for many Canadians take our freedom for granted.

Once again, what does standing around in "silence" for 0.00038% of year teach you rather than... including it in history lesson?

At my school we always read war letters and newfoundlanders who won the VC, not standing around

[Great Nepal]

Once again, what does standing around in "silence" for 0.00038% of year teach you rather than... including it in history lesson?

At my school we always read war letters and newfoundlanders who won the VC, not standing around

Well, we sometimes just stood around (usually, they just forget to ring the bell for silence time). That is still 0.00038% of the year. Why not include it in history curriculum, it will do more good.

[Zweite Alaje]

Yeah pacifism is so awesome, that's the approach that the British and French took with the Nazis, almost cost us all what little freedoms we do have. In order to be free a civilization must have a strong military tradition and a willingness to use it.

It's pretty much completely absurd to conflate anti-militarism with British collaborationist policies. And pretty rich, I might add, coming from an admirer of Mein Kampf. (Sorry, it's true - you did admire that book, and you can't wash that away.) Franklin Delano Bluth is in the same tradition as the Russian revolutionaries who forced the new Bolshevik regime to withdraw from WW1 (obviously a very different war), and the French Resistance which opposed the vichy state with effective, organized acts of violent disruption. FDB is resolutely not from the tradition of Neville Chamberlain, who exemplifies much of what I suspect FDB despises in a statist and a collaborator to boot.

Were you expecting me to be ashamed of my history as a Fascist? Sorry bub, but the guilt tip thing doesn't work on me. I do indeed continue to draw some of my beliefs from Fascism and National Socialism, despite my current adherence to Socialism. I respect the militant positions of both ideologies, and I feel that maintaining a vibrant military tradition and discipline within society is a stablizing factor.

Is Bluth simply a supporter of guerilla warfare? If that is so, I'm no opponent of such tactics, infact I find them admirable.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

It's pretty much completely absurd to conflate anti-militarism with British collaborationist policies. And pretty rich, I might add, coming from an admirer of Mein Kampf. (Sorry, it's true - you did admire that book, and you can't wash that away.) Franklin Delano Bluth is in the same tradition as the Russian revolutionaries who forced the new Bolshevik regime to withdraw from WW1 (obviously a very different war), and the French Resistance which opposed the vichy state with effective, organized acts of violent disruption. FDB is resolutely not from the tradition of Neville Chamberlain, who exemplifies much of what I suspect FDB despises in a statist and a collaborator to boot.

Were you expecting me to be ashamed of my history as a Fascist? Sorry bub, but the guilt tip thing doesn't work on me. I do indeed continue to draw some of my beliefs from Fascism and National Socialism, despite my current adherence to Socialism. I respect the militant positions of both ideologies, and I feel that maintaining a vibrant military tradition and discipline within society is a stablizing factor.

Is Bluth simply a supporter of guerilla warfare? If that is so, I'm no opponent of such tactics, infact I find them admirable.

No, I'm an outright pacifist. I find the military a particularly reprehensible institution since it is dedicated to violence in support of the state and ostensibly does so in the name of "the people" (of which I am one), but I deny the legitimacy of violence wherever it appears.

FSC means well, but to liken me to violent revolutionaries or resistors is simply not correct.

[Marquesan]

I don’t know how to speak a answer to this question.

Whether as a citizen of a Nation that encourages Freedom of expression and speech or as a former soldier.

However people who die in the service people who have bled on foreign and domestic soil should be remembered, I know men who never even got brought back to their land of birth they were laid out and buried in ditches along the road.

But to force people to remember them?

No honestly I don’t think that should be the intent of this day, this is a day of recalling people who have given the last thing they could give for their country.

I gave an earlobe and a portion of my knee not nearly as much as some have given but I believe that forcing people to attend a day set out for remembering the dead is spitting on what they died for in this case freedom.

However people should not have the need to be forced to honor these people, If they have no compulsion to see these men honored then how can they honor what these people gave for their Nation?

It’s a quandary I have argued with myself over ever since seeing this thread.

Ultimately the answer to this question is a no but the people who should be there to honor these people this people will not be there if offered choice in the matter.

So is yes also correct?

Sometimes I wish the Tao gave me more wisdom into the heart of such issues but I have no real answer for this question.

Can't seem to find an author for this slightly paraphrased quote, but...

"A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to (insert country here) for any amount, up to and including his/her life. "

And another..

"For those that will fight for it Freedom has a taste the protected shall never know." ~ General George S. Patton

I think those of us that have serve/served, fought, bled for our freedoms see it inherently differently. We know the risks and we stick our necks out anyway.

[Luziyca]

For me, we just had our ceremony (due to Flextime) today. Quite frankly, they should not opt out of school ceremonies, because, quite frankly, the reason why one goes to school is to LEARN. Attending Remembrance Day services is like a class; you learn of our sacrifices and respect those who have died in the name of the Dominion of Canada. Allowing children to opt out would be extremely disrespectful to those who have died in the name of Canada, and even Newfoundland.

I may be in Saskatchewan, but this day is a sign, that the veterans are getting what they deserve: respect and admiration. Sure, it falls on a Sunday, and thus, we have an in-lieu, but in the end, Remembrance Day is to remember our freedoms, for many Canadians take our freedom for granted.

Once again, what does standing around in "silence" for 0.00038% of year teach you rather than... including it in history lesson?

When you are at school, you need to attend classes. Assemblies and services within the school, therefore count as classes. You can choose your classes here, but you MUST attend them. No exceptions.

And standing in silence for a moment, gives us time to pause, for those personnel who have been, as an old Korean saying says, "part of the King's envoy to Hamhung." We refer to them as never returning home.

Remembrance Day itself, however, can be celebrated, since there is NO school on that day. Anyway you want. Even just ignoring it on November 11th. YOU JUST HAVE TO ATTEND THE GODDAMN SERVICE if you are present at the school. One day, we will look back, and remember fondly on our freedoms, that we have sacrificed. Giving children the option to opt out of the school Remembrance Day service should ONLY be allowed if there are paperwork. And I mean at least ten pages of paperwork, because just saying "I don't want to" won't work in real life.

So, why should that lame "I don't want to" excuse be accepted?

Exactly. If it is against their religion, beliefs, or family traditions, and is signed by the Principal, the homeroom teacher, the parents AND the student, and handed no later than the first school day of October, THEN I can justify that.

[Bunnesia]

It isn't about educational purposes, i mean yea, you learn so much at those, but It is about knowing what people have done before you. for their country, for you. Its 100% their choice, of course. But i think they should go, if merely to restore the love of their country that those dead they are remembering had. I hate people that don't respect them, either the ones dead or the ones currently serving. Because they're the ones that protect that freedom you use to hate them.

And to the pacifists (by pacifists i mean the ones that think absolutely no good comes from war). If you truly think that way, then try this. Stop using computers, stop using microwaves, don't use any medicine or go to any hospital. Computers were made for war. Microwaves were discovered because of trying to make a new weapon...for war. And about 75% of all medical advancements were made during wartime. As sad as it is that people die in wars, if war never happend we wouldn't have the sort of advanced things we do now. If WWII haden't have happend passenger aircraft would be like it was in the fifties and sixties. They die for not only their country, but for advancement.

But i digress, Its their choice if the don't want to go...But they should. It IS important.