Feminists destroy posters advocating human rights for men

[New Edom]

oh my god MEN ARE NOT DOMESTIC ABUSE VICTIMS YOU MORON.

There is so much pure stupid in this dumb thread it's astounding.

Ah and here's a good example. Go to it, feminists. Put your money where your mouth is.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

When it comes to the child support issue--I think that there is a failure on the part of feminists to understand that when MRAs talk about that they are not saying that they don't want to support their children. What they're saying is that there is a disturbing trend that THEY see which is women denying fathers opportunity to spend time with children. What they're saying is "What's the point if in spite of my best efforts I only get to see the kid once every two months no matter what I do?" When feminists deny that this happens in any significant way or fail to say "that sucks, and it shouldn't happen, and women who do that are wrong to do it unless there's some damned good reason" it is infuriating to men in that position, who feel like they've been had.

I do not fail to realize that women were not involved in combat. I don't recall seeing a bunch of WWII documentaries showing the WRAC storming Juno Beach or something.

One Punch Can Kill, Don't Turn a Night Out into a Nightmare, Real Men Walk Away, and a number of other campaigns focus exclusively on male-on-male physical violence, the main type of violence statistically suffered by males. If males want anti-abuse campaigns to focus on them as well, then they should probably engage with feminists, not cast them as the enemy.

Merge with feminists? Really. Merge with people who do not admit that women do abuse men, can abuse men. Merge with people who don't even talk about women abusing children, or if they do, basically say "patriarchy made them do it'. I don't think so. And frankly, the posters were put up to do just what you mentioned in that last sentence, and feminists tore them down, and others here have been claiming that men have nothing to be concerned about.There's nothing wrong with campaigns to deal with male violence, in and of themselves. But it is the only kind of thing that is acceptable. Now: where are the supposed good feminists when people make such claims? Are they standing up and saying, "Wait a moment--if men want to campaign for men's shelters, good for them! It's time men acknowledged concerns about their own abuse!" But I don't see that happening. Instead, consistently, feminists and their allies condemn any effort on the part of men that would suggest that to any extent they are ever treated badly by women.

I think everyone in here has already said that custody issues are a problem and are discriminatory. For fuck's sake listen for two and a half seconds. And I am sitting here telling you that I AM that "good feminist" that you apparently think doesn't exist. FUCKING NEWSFLASH HERE I AM. Quit trying to say that all feminists are man-hating oppressors because we're fucking not. But yes, some of the things MRA's sit around and advocate for are actually misogynist and bullshit and actually not discriminatory and they just have their facts fucked up. But for the most part FEMINISTS ARE ALL ABOUT EVERYONE BEING FUCKING EQUAL. Stop looking at the bad eggs and focus on the MAJORITY.

[CVT Temp]

oh my god MEN ARE NOT DOMESTIC ABUSE VICTIMS YOU MORON.

There is so much pure stupid in this dumb thread it's astounding.

Essentialism like this is not exactly helpful to feminism. If you understood feminist theory, you would know this.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

oh my god MEN ARE NOT DOMESTIC ABUSE VICTIMS YOU MORON.

There is so much pure stupid in this dumb thread it's astounding.

Oh, you are so in the wrong here. Soooo in the wrong.
Men ARE abuse victims. They are rape victims, they are trauma victims. They need protection sometimes. Sometimes men need outside help. Men are susceptible to all the same abuse types women are. There may be more of one or more of another for one sex but female-on-male domestic violence and rape ARE REAL.

[Genocidonia]

Ah and here's a good example. Go to it, feminists. Put your money where your mouth is.

A good example of what, someone with their brain in their head and not their ass? You need to get out this goddam thread and go outside.

[New Edom]

When it comes to the child support issue--I think that there is a failure on the part of feminists to understand that when MRAs talk about that they are not saying that they don't want to support their children. What they're saying is that there is a disturbing trend that THEY see which is women denying fathers opportunity to spend time with children. What they're saying is "What's the point if in spite of my best efforts I only get to see the kid once every two months no matter what I do?" When feminists deny that this happens in any significant way or fail to say "that sucks, and it shouldn't happen, and women who do that are wrong to do it unless there's some damned good reason" it is infuriating to men in that position, who feel like they've been had.

I do not fail to realize that women were not involved in combat. I don't recall seeing a bunch of WWII documentaries showing the WRAC storming Juno Beach or something.



Merge with feminists? Really. Merge with people who do not admit that women do abuse men, can abuse men. Merge with people who don't even talk about women abusing children, or if they do, basically say "patriarchy made them do it'. I don't think so. And frankly, the posters were put up to do just what you mentioned in that last sentence, and feminists tore them down, and others here have been claiming that men have nothing to be concerned about.There's nothing wrong with campaigns to deal with male violence, in and of themselves. But it is the only kind of thing that is acceptable. Now: where are the supposed good feminists when people make such claims? Are they standing up and saying, "Wait a moment--if men want to campaign for men's shelters, good for them! It's time men acknowledged concerns about their own abuse!" But I don't see that happening. Instead, consistently, feminists and their allies condemn any effort on the part of men that would suggest that to any extent they are ever treated badly by women.

I think everyone in here has already said that custody issues are a problem and are discriminatory. For fuck's sake listen for two and a half seconds. And I am sitting here telling you that I AM that "good feminist" that you apparently think doesn't exist. FUCKING NEWSFLASH HERE I AM. Quit trying to say that all feminists are man-hating oppressors because we're fucking not. But yes, some of the things MRA's sit around and advocate for are actually misogynist and bullshit and actually not discriminatory and they just have their facts fucked up. But for the most part FEMINISTS ARE ALL ABOUT EVERYONE BEING FUCKING EQUAL. Stop looking at the bad eggs and focus on the MAJORITY.

Excuse me, but while I have been disagreeing with you I haven't been discourteous. I would appreciate you extending the same courtesy to me. And if the majority is fair and reasonable, then why have there been, on feminist blogs and here as well people advocating feminism who have said that they couldn't care less if the posters were torn down? And why is there no acknowledgement of female on male abuse? Do you really equate what I said with feminists being man hating oppressors, or is it rather that I question the integrity of a movement that doesn't acknowledge its own failings or shortcomings? Using no true scotsman arguments is not acknowledging shortcomings.

As for the MRM, you would have no argument with me that it has strongly misogynistic elements. It is often full of confused and unhappy angry men. However the tendency of most feminists to wave a dismissive hand at their concerns is hardly helpful.

[New Edom]

oh my god MEN ARE NOT DOMESTIC ABUSE VICTIMS YOU MORON.

There is so much pure stupid in this dumb thread it's astounding.

Oh, you are so in the wrong here. Soooo in the wrong.
Men ARE abuse victims. They are rape victims, they are trauma victims. They need protection sometimes. Sometimes men need outside help. Men are susceptible to all the same abuse types women are. There may be more of one or more of another for one sex but female-on-male domestic violence and rape ARE REAL.

Thank you for saying that. I believe that that is all the posters were intended to say, personally.

[Genocidonia]

@TS

I'm more than sure men face these sorts of problems at a rate VASTLY VASTLY VASTLY less than women. When I said that men don't face domestic violence, I'm saying that it must be so INSIGNIFICANT that mentioning it is just obtuse pendantry.

Look I'm a man, I've got a ton of fucking privilege. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise can suck it down, because they are a moron. Death to patriarchy, beat up all misogynists.

[CVT Temp]

@TS

I'm more than sure men face these sorts of problems at a rate VASTLY VASTLY VASTLY less than women. When I said that men don't face domestic violence, I'm saying that it must be so INSIGNIFICANT that mentioning it is just obtuse pendantry.

Look I'm a man, I've got a ton of fucking privilege. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise can suck it down, because they are a moron. Death to patriarchy, beat up all misogynists.

See, these are the kind of allies I don't want. Obsessing over some internalized sense of guilt and overcompensating for it by displacing your internal sense of guilt onto other people.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

I think everyone in here has already said that custody issues are a problem and are discriminatory. For fuck's sake listen for two and a half seconds. And I am sitting here telling you that I AM that "good feminist" that you apparently think doesn't exist. FUCKING NEWSFLASH HERE I AM. Quit trying to say that all feminists are man-hating oppressors because we're fucking not. But yes, some of the things MRA's sit around and advocate for are actually misogynist and bullshit and actually not discriminatory and they just have their facts fucked up. But for the most part FEMINISTS ARE ALL ABOUT EVERYONE BEING FUCKING EQUAL. Stop looking at the bad eggs and focus on the MAJORITY.

Excuse me, but while I have been disagreeing with you I haven't been discourteous. I would appreciate you extending the same courtesy to me. And if the majority is fair and reasonable, then why have there been, on feminist blogs and here as well people advocating feminism who have said that they couldn't care less if the posters were torn down? And why is there no acknowledgement of female on male abuse? Do you really equate what I said with feminists being man hating oppressors, or is it rather that I question the integrity of a movement that doesn't acknowledge its own failings or shortcomings? Using no true scotsman arguments is not acknowledging shortcomings.

As for the MRM, you would have no argument with me that it has strongly misogynistic elements. It is often full of confused and unhappy angry men. However the tendency of most feminists to wave a dismissive hand at their concerns is hardly helpful.

Surely you can understand how frustrating it is that I am trying to say that I agree with you for the most part that there is discrimination all around, yet you're sitting here saying that no feminist exists that thinks men need some standing up for. I hate being classed in with the other feminists, the ones who have their heads so far up their ass that they get to eat their breakfast again. THOSE "feminists" are the exact reason I had to leave the organization that I helped build.

Yeah, I think those posters are actually really ridiculous. They first of all give out the wrong message. They are really aggravating to people like me who want to stop discrimination. You need better posters. And besides that, it's a poster. When I put up feminist poster, pro-choice posters, or atheist posters, I'm FINE with them being ripped down. I don't scream bloody murder about oppression. Is it immature? Yep. Is it something to get so upset about? Nope.

Some MRA's are misogynist, yes. On the AVfM, there are links to sites that are nothing more than attack sites, going as far as one to demand the shunning of Katherine Heigl because she made a JOKE about castration. Yet if I were to make a site that blacklisted every person to make a Woman in the Kitchen joke or blonde joke, I would get my fucking house burned down for being misandrist. They talk about how women shouldn't be firemen, how they shouldn't be in combat, how women are oppressive because they file for divorce more than men, that women don't deserve equal pay, and some even advocate that a woman shouldn't be allowed to terminate a pregnancy without a man's consent... I know not ALL MRA's are for these but when your most influential sites post this it's kind of bad.

[CVT Temp]

Oh, and BTW, male rape is actually a huge problem. Prison rape is enormous. I'm not saying it's the only thing that matters, but prison rape is a huge symptom of our society. And yes, viewing rape as a punishment is part of the problem.

[Ostroeuropa]

oh my god MEN ARE NOT DOMESTIC ABUSE VICTIMS YOU MORON.

There is so much pure stupid in this dumb thread it's astounding.

I've been in an emotionally and physically abusive relationship. I can confirm it's nigh impossible to come to terms with that and confront them over it while in the relationship. To some extent i'm recovered, but then again, part of me suspects if they asked me to come back i might struggle to refuse.
The problem comes from the often neglected observation that the abuser is too a victim of their own abuse, or is at least very good at showing this side. Often the conflict / guilt over their actions will lead to sympathy from the abused party, and an admission that you "Wound them up" or "Goaded them into it." in some attempt to come to terms with it and for the both of you to make up and move on.
But the hair trigger temper of people doesn't get fixed that way.
I've known others who have been on both sides of this dynamic, and i'd compare it to drug addiction in a spouse. The abuser is a victim of a lack of self-control, and they often are painfully aware of this. They may rationalize it away, but often it's too obvious to ignore.
This leads to a situation where both parties feel desperate, and the abuser may well fully intend to reform themselves and promise to do so. The level of determination and desperation they show will often convince the abused to help them through it, and they may seem extremely serious and commited to it. This is how they manage to convince you to stay. They believe it themselves.
It's a very odd dynamic.


From earlier in the thread.
Hi, by the way. male domestic abuse victim here.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Oh, you are so in the wrong here. Soooo in the wrong.
Men ARE abuse victims. They are rape victims, they are trauma victims. They need protection sometimes. Sometimes men need outside help. Men are susceptible to all the same abuse types women are. There may be more of one or more of another for one sex but female-on-male domestic violence and rape ARE REAL.

Thank you for saying that. I believe that that is all the posters were intended to say, personally.

Problem with those posters is that they have no tact and put out the wrong message. They are inciteful. They are putting out this message that we feminists are just awful awful oppressors who all sit around and think of way to beat up men. I do not support the Men's Right's movement because of a lot of their values, but when I see injustice against men, I do step up. That's why I support joint custody rather that default maternal custody, or paternal custody if the mother is seen to be unfit. That's why I am an intactivist. That's why I remind older men that I educate to routinely get cancer screenings. That's why I try to spot and stop domestic violence wherever it shows up. That why, when confronted with a case of potential abuse with a child that I cared for, I didn't jump to the conclusion it was dad.

[Genocidonia]

See, these are the kind of allies I don't want. Obsessing over some internalized sense of guilt and overcompensating for it by displacing your internal sense of guilt onto other people.

Guilt?

You must be spending WAY too much time in this horrible thread if you think that me saying that I've got privilege is some admission of guilt.

Are you implying that a good ally should be whining about WHAT ABOUT THE MEN???? I'm a feminist because I'm not a dick, not because I'm driven by guilt. It really does not go beyond me realizing women deserve equality to men.

Misogynists are idiots, we should be laughing at them for their lack of ability to speak with a women without going on about their WoW accounts.

[Ostroeuropa]

See, these are the kind of allies I don't want. Obsessing over some internalized sense of guilt and overcompensating for it by displacing your internal sense of guilt onto other people.

Guilt?

You must be spending WAY too much time in this horrible thread if you think that me saying that I've got privilege is some admission of guilt.

Are you implying that a good ally should be whining about WHAT ABOUT THE MEN???? I'm a feminist because I'm not a dick, not because I'm driven by guilt. It really does not go beyond me realizing women deserve equality to men.

Misogynists are idiots, we should be laughing at them for their lack of ability to speak with a women without going on about their WoW accounts.

Your earlier statement makes me think you are a sexist. Most feminists would not label you a feminist, in fact you are part of the reason I'm of the opinion they should ditch the label.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Guilt?

You must be spending WAY too much time in this horrible thread if you think that me saying that I've got privilege is some admission of guilt.

Are you implying that a good ally should be whining about WHAT ABOUT THE MEN???? I'm a feminist because I'm not a dick, not because I'm driven by guilt. It really does not go beyond me realizing women deserve equality to men.

Misogynists are idiots, we should be laughing at them for their lack of ability to speak with a women without going on about their WoW accounts.

You're earlier statement makes me think you are a sexist. Most feminists would not label you a feminist, in fact you are part of the reason I'm of the opinion they should ditch the label.

Yes, he is sexist. I'm keeping my feminist title. It has too much history and I refuse to let them run me off of the title, and I sure as hell am not going to call myself masculinist.

[CVT Temp]

Guilt?

You must be spending WAY too much time in this horrible thread if you think that me saying that I've got privilege is some admission of guilt.

Are you implying that a good ally should be whining about WHAT ABOUT THE MEN???? I'm a feminist because I'm not a dick, not because I'm driven by guilt. It really does not go beyond me realizing women deserve equality to men.

Misogynists are idiots, we should be laughing at them for their lack of ability to speak with a women without going on about their WoW accounts.

Saying you've got privilege is not guilt, but overcompensating by saying that no males are victims of violence or rape (a sentiment that is quite dismissive of the existence of homophobic hate crimes, BTW) is a kind of overzealous behavior that is often a manifestation of projected guilt.

[Saint Jade IV]

When it comes to the child support issue--I think that there is a failure on the part of feminists to understand that when MRAs talk about that they are not saying that they don't want to support their children. What they're saying is that there is a disturbing trend that THEY see which is women denying fathers opportunity to spend time with children. What they're saying is "What's the point if in spite of my best efforts I only get to see the kid once every two months no matter what I do?" When feminists deny that this happens in any significant way or fail to say "that sucks, and it shouldn't happen, and women who do that are wrong to do it unless there's some damned good reason" it is infuriating to men in that position, who feel like they've been had.

Then maybe men should stop saying that they want to stop financially supporting their children. MRAs seem to be under the impression that child support should act like a club membership. That they should be able to stop paying if they stop attending or go to another club. That if the club manager mistreats them, that they should get to get out of the contract. Newsflash, children don't work like that. And if you cared, you wouldn't be complaining about not getting a return on your investment. You'd be complaining about the lack of time you get with your children. About how it's damaging to your psyche. Not your hip pocket. The point of child support is exactly that. Not a pay as you go scheme where you get to stop supporting the thing you are supposed to love because the rules don't suit you.

I do not fail to realize that women were not involved in combat. I don't recall seeing a bunch of WWII documentaries showing the WRAC storming Juno Beach or something.

You are again missing the point spectacularly. Men are trying to stop women from dying in combat, by barring them from being allowed to participate. You know who is trying to help women die in combat? Those evil feminists.

One Punch Can Kill, Don't Turn a Night Out into a Nightmare, Real Men Walk Away, and a number of other campaigns focus exclusively on male-on-male physical violence, the main type of violence statistically suffered by males. If males want anti-abuse campaigns to focus on them as well, then they should probably engage with feminists, not cast them as the enemy.

Merge with feminists? Really. Merge with people who do not admit that women do abuse men, can abuse men. Merge with people who don't even talk about women abusing children, or if they do, basically say "patriarchy made them do it'.

You know, I've heard women talk about how the abuse of children by women was in some part due to the stresses society puts on them. I've read studies, by feminists, who point out that it tends to be white middle class women who abuse their children - because there is more pressure on them to be "perfect". I've also heard feminists begging for more father involvement in the home to support mothers at-risk of abuse. I've heard feminists beg for fathers to attend parenting classes. And I've heard feminists scream for parental leave for both parents. MRAs on the other hand, seem to want to blame women for their faults, without actually trying to fix the problem. MRAs want to make it harder for men to be at home to support their wives, or to in some cases, be the primary caregiver. They seem to want a return to the halcyon golden days that never were of the 50s and 60s. Feminists are the ones reminding people of how dangerous that time was.

I don't think so. And frankly, the posters were put up to do just what you mentioned in that last sentence, and feminists tore them down, and others here have been claiming that men have nothing to be concerned about.There's nothing wrong with campaigns to deal with male violence, in and of themselves. But it is the only kind of thing that is acceptable. Now: where are the supposed good feminists when people make such claims? Are they standing up and saying, "Wait a moment--if men want to campaign for men's shelters, good for them! It's time men acknowledged concerns about their own abuse!" But I don't see that happening. Instead, consistently, feminists and their allies condemn any effort on the part of men that would suggest that to any extent they are ever treated badly by women.

Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it isn't. The trouble with most MRAs is that instead of wanting to acknowledge the extent of the problem of violence and rape against women, they seek to diminish it, while attempting to promote their own cause. They dispute figures like 1 in 4 women will experience rape, and claim that its some feminist agenda to demonise men, while promoting their own agenda as victims. I personally would prefer to see men acknowledging the extent of the problem for women, and saying, it's terrible that this happens to so many of you, and did you know it happens to us almost as frequently?

Rather than belittling and shaming the female victims of violence and sexual assault, I'd rather them support both male and female victims.

[Ostroeuropa]

You're earlier statement makes me think you are a sexist. Most feminists would not label you a feminist, in fact you are part of the reason I'm of the opinion they should ditch the label.

Yes, he is sexist. I'm keeping my feminist title. It has too much history and I refuse to let them run me off of the title, and I sure as hell am not going to call myself masculinist.

Gender equalist / Humanist.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Yes, he is sexist. I'm keeping my feminist title. It has too much history and I refuse to let them run me off of the title, and I sure as hell am not going to call myself masculinist.

Gender equalist / Humanist.

I just use the historic definition of feminist, which is those things. "The belief that the sexes should be equal in all respects."

[Ostroeuropa]

Guilt?

You must be spending WAY too much time in this horrible thread if you think that me saying that I've got privilege is some admission of guilt.

Are you implying that a good ally should be whining about WHAT ABOUT THE MEN???? I'm a feminist because I'm not a dick, not because I'm driven by guilt. It really does not go beyond me realizing women deserve equality to men.

Misogynists are idiots, we should be laughing at them for their lack of ability to speak with a women without going on about their WoW accounts.

Saying you've got privilege is not guilt, but overcompensating by saying that no males are victims of violence or rape (a sentiment that is quite dismissive of the existence of homophobic hate crimes, BTW) is a kind of overzealous behavior that is often a manifestation of projected guilt.

It's also fairly demeaning of women.
Ofcourse a woman couldn't possibly physically injure a man, what a silly notion!
Or falls into the usual bullshit that obviously women are more level headed and don't have tempers.

[CVT Temp]

I just use the historic definition of feminist, which is those things. "The belief that the sexes should be equal in all respects."

[nitpick]ALL respects? You want us to use genetic engineering so that every human has a functional uterus and a functional penis? You want a human race of single-sex humans?[/nitpick]

[Genocidonia]

@Ostro

Well, yeah but you're in an EXREME minority. I'm not trying to devalue your experience as a male DV survivor BUT cases of male DV must be so minoritarian and statistically insignificant that you'd be the exception than the rule.

I just cannot believe that men face ANY significant problems ANYWHERE.

[Ostroeuropa]

Gender equalist / Humanist.

I just use the historic definition of feminist, which is those things. "The belief that the sexes should be equal in all respects."

I think you'll have to accept eventually that this is going to end up like the communism thing. Yes, technically the USSR isn't communist.
Yes, technically the people sexist against men aren't feminists.
But that doesn't change the fact that this isn't the popular view. I'm betting if you polled people on what feminism meant, you'd see disappointing results.
And whereas communism is nebulous and isn't to blame as a word, feminism IS to blame.
It is itself a thing like when we say
"Mankind" which some feminists get uppity about. It's equating the equal rights struggle to feminine rights

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

I just use the historic definition of feminist, which is those things. "The belief that the sexes should be equal in all respects."

[nitpick]ALL respects? You want us to use genetic engineering so that every human has a functional uterus and a functional penis? You want a human race of single-sex humans?[/nitpick]

SOCIAL AND LEGAL RESPECTS OKAY
STAHP