Time to put North Korea out of its misery?

[The God-Realm]

So have I.

They hate the regime.

There was a defector from North Korea who spoke at my old school once. She was very critical of Kim Jong-il and the government, but tbh, it just seemed like the government was trying to rile us up in how our fellow Koreans were being oppressed and living in poverty up there in the North.

The drummer in my band is North Korean.

He hates both Koreas.

The South is a hellhole too.

It really is. :|

Especially in the Gangwon-do countryside. Visited my uncle there, the people who lived there didn't even have doors.

o.o

[Benutanairan]

There army is not in the million XD believe me I've been to the South Korean and North Korean side of the DMZ

I remembered having to leave a bouquet at the statue of Kim Il sung and the thousands of gifts from the cold war, the bugged hotels, the captured american boat, I could go on.

To be honest the North Koreans are nice but their eyes look dead ( emotionally) inside.

Haha, going to tourist sites =/= knowing the size of militaries.

I take it the famines since 1994 don't exist in your mind nor does the time of great trouble ( aftermath of famine)

[Arumdaum]

I didn't like it in that they were teaching us something through a single biased view, and it seemed more like the government was just trying to tell us how to think.

I don't see anything wrong with encouraging people to dislike the DPRK.

I found it wrong in that it was the government, through the use of public schools.

[Arumdaum]

Haha, going to tourist sites =/= knowing the size of militaries.

I take it the famines since 1994 don't exist in your mind nor does the time of great trouble ( aftermath of famine)

lolwut

how you even arrived to this conclusion i don't even

[Absurd Ramblings]

North Korea has long-range nuclear weaponry. Therefore they will not be invaded. Period.

All truly prosperous peoples today rebelled against a tyrannical regime X amount of decades ago. I suggest we let the North Koreans (and everyone else who is being subjected to tyranny) do the same for themselves, rather than create a new cultural identity based on relying on the assistance of others. Even if it means we don't get to inflate our saviour-ego.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

And what right do you have to tell people that the United States is evil and that their people are delusional and the like? You're telling us that we can't bash North Koreans but you can freely bash the American people? The people there by and large in the United States seem to support the present government and its programs. What right do you have to tell them otherwise?

For reference, I'm actually a US citizen. I've lived the majority of my life, including the present, within this nation. Largely, aside from major-capital owners, pro-capitalist politicians, active racists/fascists, I don't hold antipathy towards anyone here. I'm ... at times a bit ... frustrated by the lack of working class consciousness; but in any case, I see it as my duty to work for the benefit of disadvantaged and working class Americans (the VAST majority of us). Much of anger I hold towards the present system - and mind you, there is a lot of it - is precisely BECAUSE of the needless harm it causes to them.

I feel that every nation has a right to political self-determination; and as such, as an actual American, I hold a right to at least, in this context, argue for my views - those on behalf of the interests of the majority of Americans demographically, and thus "democratic" per literal definition - just as North Koreans do in supporting their own government, or other parties in the DPRK (whose SPA is more diverse than our Congress in terms of parties represented) do to their own ends.

Finally, everyone can freely support what they want to in this world. But when you do, you have to face the facts that people will disagree with you. Hiding behind "what right do you have?!" won't change that.

I have no objection towards you expressing your views.

I do, however, quite strongly object to the premise of this thread - changing the structure of another state, through military force, against the will of its people. That is one of the most heinously evil and truly anti-democratic things mankind is capable of.

So where in Marxist theory does it say to have a supreme ruler who is recognized with titles like the Eternal President and all that hokum? What in Marxist theory clearly shows that the DPRK is on the right path?

To the first bit, Kim Il Sung was recognized as Eternal President after already being DEAD. It thus an honorary title with no structural power, by very definition.

As per Marxist Theory's relation to the DPRK - if you mean Marx himself, obviously, as he was not a contemporary of the DPRK, his own works have no commentary on it.

Yet, Marxist-Leninist theoreticians would generally state that the DPRK is in the stage that Marx described as "the dictatorship of the proletariat" / a "workers' state". Much in the same way as capitalists have states (such as the US) which promote their class interests, Marx felt that workers would similarly need a workers' state, led by a vanguard of those with advanced theory to take control of the superstructure, to promote their interests, until capitalism was destroyed globally, allowing finally for a classless, stateless society.

[Bojikami]

Oh dear another American thread about Korea....

Well to be honest, we should leave it alone and let the south take care of it. More foreign intervention is going to make the US more jingoistic than it currently is.

[Benutanairan]

I take it the famines since 1994 don't exist in your mind nor does the time of great trouble ( aftermath of famine)

lolwut

how you even arrived to this conclusion i don't even

Well the famines seem to love every new kim

[Arumdaum]

It really is. :|

Especially in the Gangwon-do countryside. Visited my uncle there, the people who lived there didn't even have doors.

Every country has its bad parts. Even my own does. But I don't see South Korea suffering from mass starvation and being under the grip of a cult of personality. I haven't seen anything about South Korea that suggests it's a hellhole like the DPRK is.

One country being worse than the other does not justify the injustices of the other. South Korea still has really shitty and authoritarian laws, and I had a terrible time living there.

[Socialist Republic of Andrew]

I think we should just let North Korea destroy itself, i mean it's people love the country due to propagande, but here are the reasons it will be destroyed,
Others outside NK hate it and or do not like it.
Its economy isn't really strong.
People wanna leave it.
Its leadership and government are in ruins right now (Kim Jong Un has no idea how to run the nation, and his government is probley used to being told what to do by Kim Jong Il)
And it barley has any allies, it has very few trading partners, and like i said before, they are very close to being invaded by the SK and the US and more if they keep doing what they're doing.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

I'd actually say quite parallel to what you claim that I have nothing but the fondest of respect for the majority of South Koreans (at least those who are not of influence in their government or major capital owners). A profoundly strong, working people who have suffered through much in their history and still hold a proud culture, however much their puppet state of a government tries to destroy it. I just wish that South Korean workers could be reunited with their brothers and sisters in the North under a workers' state.

Anyone who says what I have italicized does not in any way respect the majority of South Koreans.

I think all workers should have a self-determined workers's state, and that the division of Korea is unnecessary.

[Arumdaum]

There was a defector from North Korea who spoke at my old school once. She was very critical of Kim Jong-il and the government, but tbh, it just seemed like the government was trying to rile us up in how our fellow Koreans were being oppressed and living in poverty up there in the North.

The drummer in my band is North Korean.

He hates both Koreas.

It really is. :|

Especially in the Gangwon-do countryside. Visited my uncle there, the people who lived there didn't even have doors.

o.o

Woah, that's awesome.

How old was he when he defected?

And yeah, the countryside reeks of poverty. D:

[Arumdaum]

lolwut

how you even arrived to this conclusion i don't even

Well the famines seem to love every new kim

This is your reasoning in that me saying that going to tourist locations doesn't make you know the size of militaries, means that I never heard of the famines?

I mean really, just look up the size of their military.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

You've jumped to the conclusions that he believes that the USSR under Stalin is something to be defended, and something to be idolized at a worker's state from him calling Trotsky a sellout.

He said he pretty much supports Stalin except for the two things he listed as stuff he couldn't believe in, namely Stalin's foreign policy and his classification of workers.

So I took the assumption that he supported Stalinist Russia as a worker's state. I would not put it past him, seeing as how he supports the DPRK. So I asked him what about Stalinist Russia was so good besides those two things he listed as negatives.

Yes, I know that you don't have to be a Stalinist to dislike Trotsky, I know that, but come on. It's clear as crystal, and besides, to not support Stalinist Russia yet love the DPRK is pure hypocrisy.

For the second time, I'm closest to the ideology of the Non-Aligned Movement, and concur with basically all of their objections to Stalin individually.

That said, the NAM came into existence some time following the Trotsky issue, and, while I am not in full agreement with Stalin on all points of theory, I still hold far greater support for the USSR under him, in those times (through the end of WWII, let's say) than any other nation on earth. Not an uncritical, mindless support; simply, the USSR under him was as close to ideal as the world had at that point of time, and thus, on those grounds, deserved support above anyone else.

[Madistania]

As a progressive, I fail to understand why North Korea is still running. Lets face it, eh are the laughing stock of the world and basically live of chinas money. I'm here to discuss the possibility of overthrowing the delusional dictator Kim Jong un and his generals and how would it be possible??

Why don't North Korea open up to the world like other communist nations have done?
Why don't they unify?

Lets have a good, clean debate

I think that we should just ignore North Korea. It will collapse, with all of its neighbours becoming ever richer and it stagnating and declining it is inevitable.

The reason North Korea does not open up to the rest of the world is because it is still a feudal state that exists in a technological and developmental vacuum.

Unification between the North and South will be difficult as they have been moving in two very different directions for the past half century. They might eventually unify though. They are an interesting experiment of sorts of how a unified monogamous group can under the right circumstances become two quite different groups. People are still naturally evolving in a respect.

[Ganos Lao]

I feel that every nation has a right to political self-determination.

I guess Adolf Hitler and the Nazis should've had their right to political self-determination realized too, right? I mean, look at them, before Poland, running around the Reich, harassing the Jews. Clearly we should have just let them all be without raising any sort of fuss. Don't forget Rwanda. We should've just let the Hutu extremists slaughter all the Tutsis without any fuss. The UN should've just stayed out. You pretty much are legitimizing genocide merely because it is the "right" of all nations to kill whoever they want, do whatever they want, because they are determining their own paths.

I do, however, quite strongly object to the premise of this thread - changing the structure of another state, through military force, against the will of its people. That is one of the most heinously evil and truly anti-democratic things mankind is capable of.

Are you sure that every single North Korean's will is that the DPRK's structure not be changed?

Yet, Marxist-Leninist theoreticians would generally state that the DPRK is in the stage that Marx described as "the dictatorship of the proletariat" / a "workers' state". Much in the same way as capitalists have states (such as the US) which promote their class interests, Marx felt that workers would similarly need a workers' state, led by a vanguard of those with advanced theory to take control of the superstructure, to promote their interests, until capitalism was destroyed globally, allowing finally for a classless, stateless society.

I think Trotskylvania or someone needs to have a word with you concerning Marxist theory. I'm pretty sure Marx did not say that cults of personality should be developing. Plus, like illustrated beforehand - and you have no evidence I was quoting Trotskyists, so don't try that one on me - even Marxists would question your beliefs that the DPRK is a worker's state.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Silly you, everyone knows that those S. Korean are only US imperialist puppets and not true S. Korean workers, and thus we should have no respect for their preferences with regard to who they want in charge.

I thought it was interesting how Dok thinks the ROK likes to destroy Korean culture. Funny how that is, considering how the ROK has a track record of the complete opposite.

The main goals of MCT are:

To educate Korean people to be cultured and creative citizens
To create a society in which leisure and work are in harmony
To create a dynamic nation in which various local cultures are represented
To enhance public awareness of the national agenda (e.g. green growth) through public relations activities
To improve quality of life for citizens by supporting cultural events and activities, sports, tourism, and religious activities

Yes, truly, they want to destroy the Korean culture. When Japan sends back some Korean artefacts, they'll use them for target practice.

Why, then, does the Southern dialect of Korean utilize many (mainly English-derived) loanwords, at far greater frequency and quantity than that of the North, which preserves a more historic Korean form or invents novel terms using purely Korean roots, rather than importing loan-words?

Why, then, is the Arirang Festival celebrated in the North and not the South?

Why, then, is South Korean music virtually indistinguishable from Western boy/girl bands, focusing merely on (again, mainly Western-derived) image, rather than quality; and the North holding to its cultural roots?

Why, then, do South Koreans dress almost indistinguishably from Westerners, and many North Koreans still retain their own cultural dress?

The contrast between the two is simply night and day. South Korea has, tragically, prostituted its own culture to mindless globalist consumerism, while the North stands free and proud.

[Madistania]

The South is a hellhole too.

What is your justification for this sentiment?

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

I feel that every nation has a right to political self-determination.

I guess Adolf Hitler and the Nazis should've had their right to political self-determination realized too, right? I mean, look at them, before Poland, running around the Reich, harassing the Jews. Clearly we should have just let them all be without raising any sort of fuss. Don't forget Rwanda. We should've just let the Hutu extremists slaughter all the Tutsis without any fuss. The UN should've just stayed out. You pretty much are legitimizing genocide merely because it is the "right" of all nations to kill whoever they want, do whatever they want, because they are determining their own paths.

The issue in any such instance (ignoring the Nazis own imperialist policies) is that, in my view, such cultural groups as the Jews or Tutsis, to the extent they either self-identify or are identified as such, constitute a "nation", and are accordingly entitled to their own path of self-determination; any force harming them in such a degree is equally guilty as if they'd conducted imperialism against a structural nation-state.

Are you sure that every single North Korean's will is that the DPRK's structure not be changed?

Every single...? That'd be nigh impossible to determine.

But I'll grant for sake of argument that there are some that do indeed wish its structure to be changed. Hell, given the fact that there are differing parties, it's self-evident. So long as they reserve such sentiments to legal methodologies (ie. supporting other parties or emigrating), I don't particularly have a problem with them as such.

Yet, Marxist-Leninist theoreticians would generally state that the DPRK is in the stage that Marx described as "the dictatorship of the proletariat" / a "workers' state". Much in the same way as capitalists have states (such as the US) which promote their class interests, Marx felt that workers would similarly need a workers' state, led by a vanguard of those with advanced theory to take control of the superstructure, to promote their interests, until capitalism was destroyed globally, allowing finally for a classless, stateless society.

I think Trotskylvania or someone needs to have a word with you concerning Marxist theory.

[/quote]

Yes, yes. Let's have all the workers simultaneously rise up in an unorganized (ideally non-violent) revolution. That totally is the way. And rainbows and unicorns and fairies. ^___^

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

The South is a hellhole too.

What is your justification for this sentiment?

Their national security act, the massacres of protesting citizens by their own government, the genocide on Cheju, the lack of protection to their own citizens, etc.

[Ganos Lao]

Why, then, is South Korean music virtually indistinguishable from Western boy/girl bands, focusing merely on (again, mainly Western-derived) image, rather than quality; and the North holding to its cultural roots?

Why, then, do South Koreans dress almost indistinguishably from Westerners, and many North Koreans still retain their own cultural dress?

The contrast between the two is simply night and day. South Korea has, tragically, prostituted its own culture to mindless globalist consumerism, while the North stands free and proud.

Yep. Jeans and tank tops and skirts are all a Western Imperialistic plot design to destroy world cultures! And let's not forget the boy/girl bands! Clearly those are also bad as well.

Justin Bieber must be a CIA agent trying to seduce young women into supporting capitalism and imperialism.

Let us conveniently forget the fact that South Korea has a proud culture. I have told the South Korean girl I know all about what you have said about her people and her nation and she has quite frankly a desire to kick your ass. I would not blame her for wanting to do that. The festival you mention has nothing to do with Korean culture:

The Mass Games possess an important ideological character praising the Workers Party of Korea, its armed forces, Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il. These messages may not be clear to foreign spectators who are not aware of North Korean iconography: a rising sun symbolizes Kim Il Sung. When a gun is shown, it signifies the gun which Kim Il Sung gave to his son Kim Jong Il. The color red, particularly in flowers, stands for the working class. And the color purple and red flowers represent Kim Il Sung (as the flower 'Kimilsungia is a purple orchid and the flower 'Kimjongilia' is a red begonia). A snowy mountain with a lake represents Mount Paektu where Kim Jong Il is said to have been born in a log cabin.

Clearly this represents Korean culture, amirite? How does this have anything to do with Korean culture?

Why, then, is South Korean music virtually indistinguishable from Western boy/girl bands, focusing merely on (again, mainly Western-derived) image, rather than quality; and the North holding to its cultural roots?

Because all of South Korean music is K-Pop, right? No one can be this ignorant.

Why, then, do South Koreans dress almost indistinguishably from Westerners, and many North Koreans still retain their own cultural dress?

That's funny, because South Koreans have been known to wear the hanbok. Museums in South Korea even show traditional Korean apparel from the days of the Joseon Dynasty and the like. The official South Korean tourism organization mentions in great detail traditional Korean apparel.

The Hanbok is the traditional outfit of the Korean people. Koreans nowadays wear this outfit only on festive days or special anniversaries, however it was worn daily up until just 100 years ago. It is a kind of traditional formal dress and most Koreans keep a hanbok for these special times. Children wear hanbok on their first birthday and adults wear it for their wedding ceremony and on their 60th birthday. The hanbok is also worn for funerals or religious services, and is still used as casual wear in villages or districts where the traditional ways of life are still maintained such as Chunghak-dong on Mount Jirisan.

Clearly this is just South Korean apathy towards their ancestral ways, right?

[Ganos Lao]

What is your justification for this sentiment?

Their national security act, the massacres of protesting citizens by their own government, the genocide on Cheju, the lack of protection to their own citizens, etc.

But the North Korean gulags and the like are good, right?

[The God-Realm]

The drummer in my band is North Korean.

He hates both Koreas.

o.o

Woah, that's awesome.

How old was he when he defected?

And yeah, the countryside reeks of poverty. D:

16.

He ran across the DMZ when nobody was looking, lost two toes while doing so.

[The Corparation]

What is your justification for this sentiment?

Their national security act, 1 the massacres of protesting citizens 2 by their own government, the genocide on Cheju 3 , the lack of protection to their own citizens, 3 etc.

1)Source? (
2 I don't doubt this, pretty much every nation of every ideology has at one point gotten trigger happy with protestors. But please give some examples and tell why its worse then what N. Korea has done with its multitude of human rights abuses.
3)Source?
3)Source?

[Quebec and Atlantic Canada]

Their national security act, the massacres of protesting citizens by their own government, the genocide on Cheju, the lack of protection to their own citizens, etc.

But the North Korean gulags and the like are good, right?

Oh please, he'll just say something like, "so you think it's bad for nations to have prisons? "

He's totally deluded. Nothing you say will convince him. NOTHING.

Let it go.