Time to put North Korea out of its misery?

[Ganos Lao]

How am I jumping to conclusions? He said Trotsky wanted to sell out the USSR to US intelligence. What other USSR was there back then? He's saying the same crap that Stalinist troikas used to convict victims of show trials.

You've jumped to the conclusions that he believes that the USSR under Stalin is something to be defended, and something to be idolized at a worker's state from him calling Trotsky a sellout.

He said he pretty much supports Stalin except for the two things he listed as stuff he couldn't believe in, namely Stalin's foreign policy and his classification of workers.

So I took the assumption that he supported Stalinist Russia as a worker's state. I would not put it past him, seeing as how he supports the DPRK. So I asked him what about Stalinist Russia was so good besides those two things he listed as negatives.

Yes, I know that you don't have to be a Stalinist to dislike Trotsky, I know that, but come on. It's clear as crystal, and besides, to not support Stalinist Russia yet love the DPRK is pure hypocrisy.

[Chinese Regions]

I wonder why, if NK is such a paradise, people are trying to run though one of the most defended and mined areas in the world leave? Despite the fact that the US and Canada have the worlds longest undefended boarder, nothing of the sort happens.

Generally to China, for economic reasons (akin to Latin Americans immigrating to the US). And there's legal channels for emigration. I met a number of DPRKers working/studying in China in my time there.

Hell, even an actual Korean equivalent of a gusano, writing in a news source rather hostile to the DPRK overall, says the quality of life there was superb: http://www.nknews.org/2012/10/the-good- ... rth-korea/

Economic reasons? So your both your beloved communist system that North Korea doesn't even use and the Juche system is being thrown away in favour of the capitalist system that China thankfully turned to decades ago.

[Arumdaum]

And so what if they were developed under capitalism? Are those technologies suddenly unusable in non-capitalist entities? And still, who developed certain technologies doesn't make those technologies of a certain economic system. They just are.

Non-capitalists can use them, but its just that those technologies are the result of thinking, innovation, and engineering under the capitalist model. Look at it this way:

McDonald's is a product of the United States. Non-Americans can still eat McDonald's but that doesn't change that McDonald's developed and grew in the US.

McDonalds isn't a technology. It's a corporation. A business.

Say, telephones, for example. They were invented in a capitalist country. It doesn't change the fact that the telephone isn't capitalist in itself. A telephone isn't a business, or a form of currency. It's just a telephone.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

So you've met North Korean government officials who wouldn't know anything else on pain of being sent to the gulags? Yes, surely they are the best people to learn all about what life in North Korea is like. That's like asking a Nazi official about the Jews in the camps and he's like what camps? They're just being resettled for their own good. Haven't you heard what they've written back to friends and family?

While I did indeed meet with their ambassador (a really, really cool guy; we had a number of drinks together, he told me some really interesting stories; probably one of my most memorable experiences in my life), I also met a number of North Koreans who were in China simply as workers/entertainers in a restaurant.

http://oi50.tinypic.com/ndambo.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/xcobvq.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/2f0atqx.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/15gvuk3.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/p7m1k.jpg
http://i45.tinypic.com/2u9o64z.jpg

Not government workers of any sort. Just a few young women who were interested in Chinese Culture/Language, so moved to China to work in a restaurant there. They were amazingly talented, and quite attractive, but just as human as you or I.

And between both of our moderate Chinese/my moderate Korean/the bits of English they could speak, I talked to them quite a bit about what life was like there. And invariably, they all said that while they found China to be fascinating, they had fond memories of home and missed their family/friends there. Actually pretty parallel to what I had to say (minus the whole hating the US government bit).

Also, you continue to claim that we think all North Koreans are evil. It's the government we have a problem with. No one hates the North Korean people. Yet you, in your attempt to "one-up" your critics, will continue to claim the opposite because it makes you feel better.

Yet the people there by and large support their present government and its programs. What right do you have to tell them otherwise?

Thirdly, the DPRK's society is not at all enviable. That's like saying you'd want to live in Jonestown or some other hellhole. I wouldn't put it past you to defend Jim Jones, though. I mean, he fled the US, claimed to support Communism, all that stuff. You already defend the DPRK's nonsense so why not defend that of the People's Temple?

I am not supportive of Jones, anymore than I am of Trotsky or Pol Pot, as all actively worked under incorrect theory.

[The Laughing Goats]

How do you know the opposite? You've STILL haven't gotten into North Korea. Because deep down you enjoy the capitalist paradises of the USA, or China which I still doubt you reside in.

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

That's rather interesting to read. It's refreshing to read about actual experiences rather than the innane blatherings of some random tool spouting, "communism bad, because they not like USA".

[Ganos Lao]

Yet the people there by and large support their present government and its programs. What right do you have to tell them otherwise?

And what right do you have to tell people that the United States is evil and that their people are delusional and the like? You're telling us that we can't bash North Koreans but you can freely bash the American people? The people there by and large in the United States seem to support the present government and its programs. What right do you have to tell them otherwise?

Finally, everyone can freely support what they want to in this world. But when you do, you have to face the facts that people will disagree with you. Hiding behind "what right do you have?!" won't change that.

I am not supportive of Jones, anymore than I am of Trotsky or Pol Pot, as all actively worked under incorrect theory.

So where in Marxist theory does it say to have a supreme ruler who is recognized with titles like the Eternal President and all that hokum? What in Marxist theory clearly shows that the DPRK is on the right path?

[Ganos Lao]

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

That's rather interesting to read. It's refreshing to read about actual experiences rather than the innane blatherings of some random tool spouting, "communism bad, because they not like USA".

So I take it you think the DPRK is a Communist nation? A classless society?

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

Generally to China, for economic reasons (akin to Latin Americans immigrating to the US). And there's legal channels for emigration. I met a number of DPRKers working/studying in China in my time there.

Hell, even an actual Korean equivalent of a gusano, writing in a news source rather hostile to the DPRK overall, says the quality of life there was superb: http://www.nknews.org/2012/10/the-good- ... rth-korea/

In North Korea, on birthdays and national holidays, families and neighbors gather and share with each other. My mother used to cook a lot and share food with neighbors.

Moreover, North Korea’s excellent natural environment is another nice aspect of life in North Korea.

On the other hand, benefits that common people get include free health care and education. Schools are free. Unlike in South Korea, if a student falls behind, teachers help them after school hours.

So because the DPRK has aspects of life that many other nations have, that makes all the tyranny okay?

Also, how does this person know South Korean teachers don't help their students? I know a South Korean girl and she's never told me anything like that. But, of course, she's South Korean, so I know what you'd say.

It's a sort of communal way of life that is destroyed by the capitalist system (its underlying "virtue" of competition encouraging one to think selfishly and screw everyone else over for personal gain rather than working together towards common ends).

And for reference, I too have a number of South Korean friends - mainly met through my work as a volunteer English tutor for international students at my university. They're generally quite good people.

I'd actually say quite parallel to what you claim that I have nothing but the fondest of respect for the majority of South Koreans (at least those who are not of influence in their government or major capital owners). A profoundly strong, working people who have suffered through much in their history and still hold a proud culture, however much their puppet state of a government tries to destroy it. I just wish that South Korean workers could be reunited with their brothers and sisters in the North under a workers' state.

[Ganos Lao]

They were amazingly talented, and quite attractive, but just as human as you or I.

You know, it's generally poor form to put words in people's mouths, acting like critics of North Korea think that the North Koreans are subhumans just because their leaders are mugus with no sense of reason and logic.

[Vortropolis]

I don't think we should interfere (That would be quite stupid) we should just wait it out North korea is gonna collapse sooner or later.

[Ganos Lao]

I'd actually say quite parallel to what you claim that I have nothing but the fondest of respect for the majority of South Koreans (at least those who are not of influence in their government or major capital owners). A profoundly strong, working people who have suffered through much in their history and still hold a proud culture, however much their puppet state of a government tries to destroy it. I just wish that South Korean workers could be reunited with their brothers and sisters in the North under a workers' state.

Anyone who says what I have italicized does not in any way respect the majority of South Koreans.

[The Corparation]

I'd actually say quite parallel to what you claim that I have nothing but the fondest of respect for the majority of South Koreans (at least those who are not of influence in their government or major capital owners). A profoundly strong, working people who have suffered through much in their history and still hold a proud culture, however much their puppet state of a government tries to destroy it. I just wish that South Korean workers could be reunited with their brothers and sisters in the North under a workers' state.

Anyone who says what I have italicized does not in any way respect the majority of South Koreans.

Silly you, everyone knows that those S. Korean are only US imperialist puppets and not true S. Korean workers, and thus we should have no respect for their preferences with regard to who they want in charge.

[Arumdaum]

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

So have I.

They hate the regime.

There was a defector from North Korea who spoke at my old school once. She was very critical of Kim Jong-il and the government, but tbh, it just seemed like the government was trying to rile us up in how our fellow Koreans were being oppressed and living in poverty up there in the North.

[Costa Alegria]

I also met a number of North Koreans who were in China simply as workers/entertainers in a restaurant.

Looks oddly like a restaurant I saw on a number of trip reports and a Vice documentary on Youtube.

Not government workers of any sort.

Pretty sure they were all government workers who were looking at the visa applicants to see if they were enthusiastic enough to have their "travel visas" approved.

[Ganos Lao]

So have I.

They hate the regime.

There was a defector from North Korea who spoke at my old school once. She was very critical of Kim Jong-il and the government, but tbh, it just seemed like the government was trying to rile us up in how our fellow Koreans were being oppressed and living in poverty up there in the North.

What's wrong with that?

People should know how much of a hellhole the DPRK is. It will be a good day on Earth when the DPRK is dissolved and the South reunifies the Korean peninsula. Granted, the challenges ahead shall be plentiful, but still, it'll be a good day.

[Grand Britannia]

Anyone who says what I have italicized does not in any way respect the majority of South Koreans.

Silly you, everyone knows that those S. Korean are only US imperialist puppets and not true S. Korean workers, and thus we should have no respect for their preferences with regard to who they want in charge.

All capitalist nations are U.S imperialist puppets!

[The God-Realm]

There was a defector from North Korea who spoke at my old school once. She was very critical of Kim Jong-il and the government, but tbh, it just seemed like the government was trying to rile us up in how our fellow Koreans were being oppressed and living in poverty up there in the North.

What's wrong with that?

People should know how much of a hellhole the DPRK is. It will be a good day on Earth when the DPRK is dissolved and the South reunifies the Korean peninsula. Granted, the challenges ahead shall be plentiful, but still, it'll be a good day.

The South is a hellhole too.

[Arumdaum]

There was a defector from North Korea who spoke at my old school once. She was very critical of Kim Jong-il and the government, but tbh, it just seemed like the government was trying to rile us up in how our fellow Koreans were being oppressed and living in poverty up there in the North.

What's wrong with that?

People should know how much of a hellhole the DPRK is. It will be a good day on Earth when the DPRK is dissolved and the South reunifies the Korean peninsula. Granted, the challenges ahead shall be plentiful, but still, it'll be a good day.

I didn't like it in that they were teaching us something through a single biased view, and it seemed more like the government was just trying to tell us how to think.

[Vortropolis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLkwEvGvyRg&feature=related

[The God-Realm]

Silly you, everyone knows that those S. Korean are only US imperialist puppets and not true S. Korean workers, and thus we should have no respect for their preferences with regard to who they want in charge.

All capitalist nations are U.S imperialist puppets!

The U.K. isn't.

[Ganos Lao]

Anyone who says what I have italicized does not in any way respect the majority of South Koreans.

Silly you, everyone knows that those S. Korean are only US imperialist puppets and not true S. Korean workers, and thus we should have no respect for their preferences with regard to who they want in charge.

I thought it was interesting how Dok thinks the ROK likes to destroy Korean culture. Funny how that is, considering how the ROK has a track record of the complete opposite.

The main goals of MCT are:

To educate Korean people to be cultured and creative citizens
To create a society in which leisure and work are in harmony
To create a dynamic nation in which various local cultures are represented
To enhance public awareness of the national agenda (e.g. green growth) through public relations activities
To improve quality of life for citizens by supporting cultural events and activities, sports, tourism, and religious activities

Yes, truly, they want to destroy the Korean culture. When Japan sends back some Korean artefacts, they'll use them for target practice.

[Arumdaum]

What's wrong with that?

People should know how much of a hellhole the DPRK is. It will be a good day on Earth when the DPRK is dissolved and the South reunifies the Korean peninsula. Granted, the challenges ahead shall be plentiful, but still, it'll be a good day.

The South is a hellhole too.

It really is. :|

Especially in the Gangwon-do countryside. Visited my uncle there, the people who lived there didn't even have doors.

[Ganos Lao]

What's wrong with that?

People should know how much of a hellhole the DPRK is. It will be a good day on Earth when the DPRK is dissolved and the South reunifies the Korean peninsula. Granted, the challenges ahead shall be plentiful, but still, it'll be a good day.

I didn't like it in that they were teaching us something through a single biased view, and it seemed more like the government was just trying to tell us how to think.

I don't see anything wrong with encouraging people to dislike the DPRK.

[Densaner]

As a progressive, I fail to understand why North Korea is still running. Lets face it, eh are the laughing stock of the world and basically live of chinas money. I'm here to discuss the possibility of overthrowing the delusional dictator Kim Jong un and his generals and how would it be possible??

Nope. Unless you want to start WWIII. The DPRK is an extremely paranoid regime. If you tried to overthrow them then you will see a rerun of what is happening in Syria except with nukes. For openers you can say goodbye to both Seoul and Tokyo.

[Ganos Lao]

The South is a hellhole too.

It really is. :|

Especially in the Gangwon-do countryside. Visited my uncle there, the people who lived there didn't even have doors.

Every country has its bad parts. Even my own does. But I don't see South Korea suffering from mass starvation and being under the grip of a cult of personality. I haven't seen anything about South Korea that suggests it's a hellhole like the DPRK is.