Time to put North Korea out of its misery?

[Arumdaum]

I wonder why, if NK is such a paradise, people are trying to run though one of the most defended and mined areas in the world leave? Despite the fact that the US and Canada have the worlds longest undefended boarder, nothing of the sort happens.

The vast majority don't do that. Iirc, they get to China, then to Thailand, then get deported by Thai police to South Korea.

[Arumdaum]

Anyone who fights imperialists and gets rid of capitalists is fine by me. ^__^

I'm just glad that the DPRK still has the courage to carry out the Revolution when few to no other nations will.

Welcome to the evil Capitalist NationStates. Brought to you by your Capitalist Computer$ and greedy CAPITALI$T Internet WIFI service.

Our evil KKKAPITALI$T schemes will force you to use our evil Capitalist technologies and convieneces.


Join the resistance to fight capitali$m! Ban cars, airplanes, video games, televisions, cameras, and light bulbs!

You act is if technology is capitalist in itself. Which it isn't. While some technologies may have been developed by capitalists, it doesn't make its use limited to only capitalists.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

And I'd question strongly how you'd claim to know such a thing.

How do you know the opposite? You've STILL haven't gotten into North Korea. Because deep down you enjoy the capitalist paradises of the USA, or China which I still doubt you reside in.

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

[Saruhan]

I wonder why, if NK is such a paradise, people are trying to run though one of the most defended and mined areas in the world leave? Despite the fact that the US and Canada have the worlds longest undefended boarder, nothing of the sort happens.

The vast majority don't do that. Iirc, they get to China, then to Thailand, then get deported by Thai police to South Korea.

I said one of, and the Chinese-NK boarder is extremely heavily guarded, not as much as SK-Nk boarder, but pretty damn close

[North California]

Welcome to the evil Capitalist NationStates. Brought to you by your Capitalist Computer$ and greedy CAPITALI$T Internet WIFI service.

Our evil KKKAPITALI$T schemes will force you to use our evil Capitalist technologies and convieneces.


Join the resistance to fight capitali$m! Ban cars, airplanes, video games, televisions, cameras, and light bulbs!

You act is if technology is capitalist in itself.

Cars, airplanes, video games, and light bulbs are largely products of capitalism (or some form of it). Most modern technology developed in the last two centuries were developed by private entities in countries with largely free markets.

[Arumdaum]

I never stated I was a Stalinist per se. I disagree with him both on the theoretical matters of the bifurcation of workers into separate agricultural and proletarian "classes", as well as elements of his foreign policy - the latter being more relevent to this post.

If anything, I'm closest to the Non-Aligned Movement (ie. Tito, Kim Il Sung, etc.).

Trotsky, and his like, was a Menshevik initially, and still held positions of "gradual transition to socialism", involving, in practical terms promotion of capitalism, and/or collaboration with capitalists in a transitional form.

But that doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to explain to us how Stalinist Russia was indeed a workers state. You dismissed Trotsky as a traitor.

Trotsky lived in the time of Stalinist Russia.

Hence you are advocating this belief that the USSR at the time of Stalin is something to be defended, to be idolized as a workers state.

So I ask you how anything in Stalinist Russia at the time is indicative of this. I ask you how men like Lavrenty Beria were defending the Revolution. I ask you how all the people I listed were enemies of it.

You're jumping to conclusions.

Not liking Trotsky =/= advocating that the USSR under Stalin is something to be defended =/= USSR under Stalin is something to be idolized as a worker's state

[Vladmiristan]

As a progressive, I fail to understand why North Korea is still running. Lets face it, eh are the laughing stock of the world and basically live of chinas money. I'm here to discuss the possibility of overthrowing the delusional dictator Kim Jong un and his generals and how would it be possible??

Why don't North Korea open up to the world like other communist nations have done?
Why don't they unify?

Lets have a good, clean debate

Kim Jong Un is not a dictator he has to be elected to stay in power every 5 years

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

I wonder why, if NK is such a paradise, people are trying to run though one of the most defended and mined areas in the world leave? Despite the fact that the US and Canada have the worlds longest undefended boarder, nothing of the sort happens.

Generally to China, for economic reasons (akin to Latin Americans immigrating to the US). And there's legal channels for emigration. I met a number of DPRKers working/studying in China in my time there.

Hell, even an actual Korean equivalent of a gusano, writing in a news source rather hostile to the DPRK overall, says the quality of life there was superb: http://www.nknews.org/2012/10/the-good- ... rth-korea/

[Arumdaum]

You act is if technology is capitalist in itself.

Cars, airplanes, video games, and light bulbs are largely products of capitalism (or some form of it). Most modern technology developed in the last two centuries were developed by private entities in countries with largely free markets.

And so what if they were developed under capitalism? Are those technologies suddenly unusable in non-capitalist entities? And still, who developed certain technologies doesn't make those technologies of a certain economic system. They just are.

[The God-Realm]

How do you know the opposite? You've STILL haven't gotten into North Korea. Because deep down you enjoy the capitalist paradises of the USA, or China which I still doubt you reside in.

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

So have I.

They hate the regime.

[Kingdom of the Polar Bear]

It begins...

Yes, we should intervene in north korea.
Partly to liberate the koreans, and partly to glare at the chinese and make them itch slightly that we're in the region killin dictators.

North Korea is like chinas annoying cousin. They do not like them, but they are still family. Bu then it would be the Korean war all over again. What I find stupid is they fact that Kim Jong un went to school in Switzerland. He knows about the outside world but as a coward and downright idiot, he does not tell his people

Since there was no official Peace Treaty, the Korean War is basicly a really long Cease Fire

[The Corparation]

I wonder why, if NK is such a paradise, people are trying to run though one of the most defended and mined areas in the world leave? Despite the fact that the US and Canada have the worlds longest undefended boarder, nothing of the sort happens.

The vast majority don't do that. Iirc, they get to China, then to Thailand, then get deported by Thai police to South Korea.

The Chinese border may not be as heavily defended as the DMZ, but its pretty well guarded and patrolled because people try and sneak out that way.

[Ganos Lao]

How do you know the opposite? You've STILL haven't gotten into North Korea. Because deep down you enjoy the capitalist paradises of the USA, or China which I still doubt you reside in.

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

So you've met North Korean government officials who wouldn't know anything else on pain of being sent to the gulags? Yes, surely they are the best people to learn all about what life in North Korea is like. That's like asking a Nazi official about the Jews in the camps and he's like what camps? They're just being resettled for their own good. Haven't you heard what they've written back to friends and family?

Also, you continue to claim that we think all North Koreans are evil. It's the government we have a problem with. No one hates the North Korean people. Yet you, in your attempt to "one-up" your critics, will continue to claim the opposite because it makes you feel better.

Thirdly, the DPRK's society is not at all enviable. That's like saying you'd want to live in Jonestown or some other hellhole. I wouldn't put it past you to defend Jim Jones, though. I mean, he fled the US, claimed to support Communism, all that stuff. You already defend the DPRK's nonsense so why not defend that of the People's Temple?

[Ganos Lao]

But that doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to explain to us how Stalinist Russia was indeed a workers state. You dismissed Trotsky as a traitor.

Trotsky lived in the time of Stalinist Russia.

Hence you are advocating this belief that the USSR at the time of Stalin is something to be defended, to be idolized as a workers state.

So I ask you how anything in Stalinist Russia at the time is indicative of this. I ask you how men like Lavrenty Beria were defending the Revolution. I ask you how all the people I listed were enemies of it.

You're jumping to conclusions.

Not liking Trotsky =/= advocating that the USSR under Stalin is something to be defended =/= USSR under Stalin is something to be idolized as a worker's state

How am I jumping to conclusions? He said Trotsky wanted to sell out the USSR to US intelligence. What other USSR was there back then? He's saying the same crap that Stalinist troikas used to convict victims of show trials.

[Arumdaum]

The vast majority don't do that. Iirc, they get to China, then to Thailand, then get deported by Thai police to South Korea.

The Chinese border may not be as heavily defended as the DMZ, but its pretty well guarded and patrolled because people try and sneak out that way.

Yeah, I know. Either way, the vast majority of defectors still don't cross the DMZ.

[Dokuritsu Nippon]

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

So have I.

They hate the regime.

Not any of the ones I met.

They just kept telling me how surprised/happy they were to meet an (begrudging) American who didn't hate them and thought their nation deserved peace/respect. And how much they missed their families back home but loved studying/working in China.

[Arumdaum]

You're jumping to conclusions.

Not liking Trotsky =/= advocating that the USSR under Stalin is something to be defended =/= USSR under Stalin is something to be idolized as a worker's state

How am I jumping to conclusions? He said Trotsky wanted to sell out the USSR to US intelligence. What other USSR was there back then? He's saying the same crap that Stalinist troikas used to convict victims of show trials.

You've jumped to the conclusions that he believes that the USSR under Stalin is something to be defended, and something to be idolized at a worker's state from him calling Trotsky a sellout.

[Macemaltaland]

We should take out North Korea's communist govt. and install a capitalist one.

[Ganos Lao]

I wonder why, if NK is such a paradise, people are trying to run though one of the most defended and mined areas in the world leave? Despite the fact that the US and Canada have the worlds longest undefended boarder, nothing of the sort happens.

Generally to China, for economic reasons (akin to Latin Americans immigrating to the US). And there's legal channels for emigration. I met a number of DPRKers working/studying in China in my time there.

Hell, even an actual Korean equivalent of a gusano, writing in a news source rather hostile to the DPRK overall, says the quality of life there was superb: http://www.nknews.org/2012/10/the-good- ... rth-korea/

In North Korea, on birthdays and national holidays, families and neighbors gather and share with each other. My mother used to cook a lot and share food with neighbors.

Moreover, North Korea’s excellent natural environment is another nice aspect of life in North Korea.

On the other hand, benefits that common people get include free health care and education. Schools are free. Unlike in South Korea, if a student falls behind, teachers help them after school hours.

So because the DPRK has aspects of life that many other nations have, that makes all the tyranny okay?

Also, how does this person know South Korean teachers don't help their students? I know a South Korean girl and she's never told me anything like that. But, of course, she's South Korean, so I know what you'd say.

[North California]

Cars, airplanes, video games, and light bulbs are largely products of capitalism (or some form of it). Most modern technology developed in the last two centuries were developed by private entities in countries with largely free markets.

And so what if they were developed under capitalism? Are those technologies suddenly unusable in non-capitalist entities? And still, who developed certain technologies doesn't make those technologies of a certain economic system. They just are.

Non-capitalists can use them, but its just that those technologies are the result of thinking, innovation, and engineering under the capitalist model. Look at it this way:

McDonald's is a product of the United States. Non-Americans can still eat McDonald's but that doesn't change that McDonald's developed and grew in the US.

[Chinese Regions]

How do you know the opposite? You've STILL haven't gotten into North Korea. Because deep down you enjoy the capitalist paradises of the USA, or China which I still doubt you reside in.

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

Wow you met an official from the North Korean government.
And just for the record, it's the government that we hate not the people, so you can stop misusing the term xenophobe. Criticism of a nation is not racism.

So you are still with the acting all big attitude. thinking you are a revolutionary and big boss man, if you were why aren't defying the American/capitalist/imperialist laws? Return to China, the land of no facebook and twitter (and at least China HAS internet unlike your beloved notsodemcratic-notquitebelongingtothepeople-notquitearepublic ofonlythenorthernbit of Korea.)

[Grand Britannia]

Meh, I don't know what's so hot about North Korea.

I like my capitalist stores, and house, and video games, and computer.

[The Corparation]

I wonder why, if NK is such a paradise, people are trying to run though one of the most defended and mined areas in the world leave? Despite the fact that the US and Canada have the worlds longest undefended boarder, nothing of the sort happens.

Generally to China, for economic reasons (akin to Latin Americans immigrating to the US). And there's legal channels for emigration. I met a number of DPRKers working/studying in China in my time there.

Hell, even an actual Korean equivalent of a gusano, writing in a news source rather hostile to the DPRK overall, says the quality of life there was superb: http://www.nknews.org/2012/10/the-good- ... rth-korea/

From the end of the article:

Everything was suffocating and pitiful in North Korea, but it is a country that I have many positive memories from. So if someone asks me ‘What is North Korea like?’ then I say ‘North Korea is a nice place with plenty of love

Just because you have fond memories of something doesn't mean life their doesn't suck.

[North California]

I've MET North Koreans in real life - including their ambassador to China, during my stay in the PRC. I've had quite long conversations with them, both there, and in my connections through the KFA. I had, for quite some time, an online penpal studying English at Kim Il Sung University. I've made a hell of an effort to communicate with them on a person to person, human level, instead of just seeing them as this big, scary "other". And you know what, in general, their society seems to be a lot preferable to that of the West in many respects. Perhaps less material wealth, but more social harmony; lower crime and violence, a stronger communal spirit. Things I'd value much higher.

Admittedly, I no longer live in China - quite unfortunately; I went through a period of depression upon having to return to the US that I've been gradually recovering from. Aside from a few close friends who I enjoy the company of, and the desire to see that my younger sister has a good life, I loathe living here. And I'm already making arrangements to visit the DPRK myself, probably in about a year or so, when circumstances allow.

Wow you met an official from the North Korean government.
And just for the record, it's the government that we hate not the people, so you can stop misusing the term xenophobe. Criticism of a nation is not racism.

So you are still with the acting all big attitude. thinking you are a revolutionary and big boss man, if you were why aren't defying the American/capitalist/imperialist laws? Return to China, the land of no facebook and twitter (and at least China HAS internet unlike your beloved notsodemcratic-notquitebelongingtothepeople-notquitearepublic ofonlythenorthernbit of Korea.)

If he lived in North Korea, he wouldn't have even heard of NationStates.

[Arumdaum]

We should take out North Korea's communist govt. and install a capitalist one.

1. South Korea will hate us with a burning passion.

2. Japan will probably also get pissed at us.

3. Many Koreans, due to rabid nationalism, are likely to take up arms against who invades them.

4. Seoul, Incheon, and Gyeongi-do might be destroyed.

5. South Korea's economy will go in the gutter due to ridiculously cheap North Korea labor, and a flood of Koreans who lived in the North flowing to what was formerly the south.