Gender titles to be scrapped in Brighton.

[Delvoir]

Yet you all continue to waste words on this person. It is rather obvious he is not willing to listen to reason, as has been demonstrated repeatedly throughout the discussions he is involved with, and so it would perhaps be fruitful and much more useful to just drop the whole debate until its continually circular structure makes all concerned upset or has the thread locked.

[Seriong]

Taboo, no. Insulting and derogatory yes. It isn't taboo to use the word 'tranny' it is taboo to call a trans person a 'tranny'. Now again, this is determined by the group, if I am Zornik, and you use Zornik insultingly, I will tell you to fuck off, is the word taboo? No, I don't have that power, (Unless Zornik is my name, rather than a group I belong to) however if the group you call Zornik says that Zornik is offensive, it is offensive.

Do go on: why does the group have power to determine if it is offensive?
Why should I pay attention to their determination of it?

The people picked that name when they made their own country, and I think they are simply stuck with it, and should put up with it, unless they also decide to re-name their State. In that case, I'd consider it reasonable enough to go along with the new name, provided they don't call themselves KCMG.

( We shan't go into 'tranny' - I simply tend to use first name, or ask what they want to be called, just as you call someone Jack Smith and not 'worker' + a dimunitive is never good form )

(I'm a bit unclear as to what 'Zornik' is)
" why does the group have power to determine if it is offensive? "
A person is able to determine what is offensive to them, just as a group is able to determine what is offensive to them.
"Why should I pay attention to their determination of it?"
In order to have a rational and civil discussion, and not get bogged down in little unproductive sidetracks like this.
"I think they are simply stuck with it, and should put up with it, unless they also decide to re-name their State. In that case, I'd consider it reasonable enough to go along with the new name,"
Now remember, this all started with one person (you) using Zornik in an offensive way, because it is only you, you would simply be thrown out, unworthy of an actual response. If it gained ground, and Zornik became offensive, then it would warrant a change of wording. If say their full name was Zorkinia, then it would be completely justified in saying they are Zorkinians, not Zoniks.

[Zaras]

Some people can't deal with the thought that they might be villains.

Being privileged doesn't make you a villain.

It makes you a cog in a framework that relies on exploitation and abuse. Not a villain, but not an innocent.

And ferpetessake, you missed the obvious comeback to that! They Might Be Villains: worst They Might Be Giants cover band ever.

[Ostroeuropa]

The word in itself is not offensive. It is primarily used by bigots, that is what gives it it's baggage. If the word were reclaimed it would no longer be offensive. we'd no longer have to deal with those moments where people are informed they are using an offensive term when they aren't in fact trying to be offensive.
What they want isn't necessarily what I care about, I care far more about removing the oppression. If that involves going against their wishes so be it. Ideally no group will have terms which can be used to hurt them emotionally. Part of that involves everyone deciding not to be offended by people using words, and part of that involves reclaiming words. I want to move us to a dynamic where these words are purely descriptive of a particular aspect of a person.
Which is what they actually are.
The extra meaning we attach to them is because we've ceded them to bigots. It's damaging to the cause.

oh. then you're working towards an ideal fairly world that will never exist and actively hurting and trampling over peoples feelings so you can give them help to get things they don't want.

well i guess we'll tell you when we've decided not to be offended by tranny anymore (it doesn't actually matter that much if other people (like you) decide not to be offended by it because no one uses it against them) until then you probably won't but it'd really appreciated if you didn't have gems like "grow the fuck up you tranny" (because obviously people that are offended are children that need to grow up and be enlightened by the cismen who know better)

actually, "What they want isn't necessarily what I care about". i hate to compare this to the textbook case of the dumb privileged kid that thinks he knows everything coming in and telling oppressed groups he knows better than them, but i'm finding it hard to see how that isn't pretty much what you're doing.

It only won't exist if people don't work toward it. If they don't let themselves be offended, they won't be.
Don't need to tell me, i'm not taking it into account. Yes, if you are offended by something you are being childish (A lot of the time. there are some legitimate times to be offended, as i said, when accused of an action you didn't commit. Not merely someone using a descriptive word.
I'm not priveleged but I doubt I can convince you of that fact. Theres very little privelage I have.

[CVT Temp]

It makes you a cog in a framework that relies on exploitation and abuse. Not a villain, but not an innocent.

It may oblige you to try and fix the injustice, but you can't be a bad person simply for existing.

And ferpetessake, you missed the obvious comeback to that! They Might Be Villains: worst They Might Be Giants cover band ever.

Sorry, I know very little about most modern music.

[Norsklow]

It is very relevant if you wish to be addressed as Mr, Ms, or Mrs.

But why should a form for credit cards care?

A great deal, I should say. Whether Jan Olofson is a He or a She may have some bearing on whether a shop-keeper ought to honour the transaction or call the cops. I'm picking Jan because its gender is rather open either way. A British Jan is VERY likely to be a she. Not so with a Norwegian or Polish Jan.

[Souseiseki]

oh. then you're working towards an ideal fairly world that will never exist and actively hurting and trampling over peoples feelings so you can give them help to get things they don't want.

well i guess we'll tell you when we've decided not to be offended by tranny anymore (it doesn't actually matter that much if other people (like you) decide not to be offended by it because no one uses it against them) until then you probably won't but it'd really appreciated if you didn't have gems like "grow the fuck up you tranny" (because obviously people that are offended are children that need to grow up and be enlightened by the cismen who know better)

actually, "What they want isn't necessarily what I care about". i hate to compare this to the textbook case of the dumb privileged kid that thinks he knows everything coming in and telling oppressed groups he knows better than them, but i'm finding it hard to see how that isn't pretty much what you're doing.

It only won't exist if people don't work toward it. If they don't let themselves be offended, they won't be.
Don't need to tell me, i'm not taking it into account. Yes, if you are offended by something you are being childish (A lot of the time. there are some legitimate times to be offended, as i said, when accused of an action you didn't commit. Not merely someone using a descriptive word.
I'm not priveleged but I doubt I can convince you of that fact. Theres very little privelage I have.

So here we are, cisman telling transperson they're being childish if they're offended and need to grow the fuck up and he knows the TRUE path to trans liberation, and you're telling me you're completely free of cis-privilege?

[Alaje]

A healthy correct human is male or female and knows what they are, a trannie is an ill, delusional individual that fails to realize that their "trapped" feelings are nothing more than a symptom of their disease.

We've explained what it is far too many times already. Each time, our explanation has been completely ignored, without even being acknowledged. The transparent degree of your intellectual dishonesty is so great that it is beyond foolish to continue conversing with you. You are incapable of noticing or accounting for any potential criticism of your position, and therefore you are useless in terms of meaningful conversation. Until you acknowledge and at least attempt to parry our continued repetition of the incredibly basic explanation that was given to you, I, and I hope others, will no longer respond to anything you say. Conversation and debate with the intellectually dishonest is a waste of time and energy.

Good day.

I'm not ignoring your "explanations", I simply acknowledge their worthlessness. You all seem to think I don't realize trannies exist. NO SHIT, they exist and they may feel that they are the opposite gender-sex, but they are wrong. They are sick individuals that need help realizing that they cannot ever be what their illness is telling them they are.

We don't tell retards they're "ok" and "normal" do we? We don't tell schizos they're just dandy, do we? The same policy should be applied to trannies as well, they must be made to acknowledge their ill state and must be brought to accept reality.

[CVT Temp]

I'm not ignoring your "explanations", I simply acknowledge their worthlessness. You all seem to think I don't realize trannies exist. NO SHIT, they exist and they may feel that they are the opposite gender-sex, but they are wrong. They are sick individuals that need help realizing that they cannot ever be what their illness is telling them they are.

We don't tell retards they're "ok" and "normal" do we? We don't tell schizos they're just dandy, do we? The same policy should be applied to trannies as well, they must be made to acknowledge their ill state and must be brought to accept reality.

The fact that you're not intelligent enough to grasp what we were saying is your problem, not ours.

[Zaras]

It makes you a cog in a framework that relies on exploitation and abuse. Not a villain, but not an innocent.

It may oblige you to try and fix the injustice, but you can't be a bad person simply for existing.

That's not my point! You're a bad person if you find out about your role in perpetuating a privileged power structure and then you decide that preserving your privilege is more important than fighting injustice.

I never said you're a bad person for existing, but you have to be aware of certain things about your place in society that can make you uncomfortable.

[Ostroeuropa]

It only won't exist if people don't work toward it. If they don't let themselves be offended, they won't be.
Don't need to tell me, i'm not taking it into account. Yes, if you are offended by something you are being childish (A lot of the time. there are some legitimate times to be offended, as i said, when accused of an action you didn't commit. Not merely someone using a descriptive word.
I'm not priveleged but I doubt I can convince you of that fact. Theres very little privelage I have.

So here we are, cisman telling transperson they're being childish if they're offended and need to grow the fuck up and he knows the TRUE path to trans liberation, and you're telling me you're completely free of cis-privilege?

If it's true then it's true no matter the source. Reclaiming the words used against trans people would help alleviate a lot of the oppression they suffer.

[Souseiseki]

We've explained what it is far too many times already. Each time, our explanation has been completely ignored, without even being acknowledged. The transparent degree of your intellectual dishonesty is so great that it is beyond foolish to continue conversing with you. You are incapable of noticing or accounting for any potential criticism of your position, and therefore you are useless in terms of meaningful conversation. Until you acknowledge and at least attempt to parry our continued repetition of the incredibly basic explanation that was given to you, I, and I hope others, will no longer respond to anything you say. Conversation and debate with the intellectually dishonest is a waste of time and energy.

Good day.

I'm not ignoring your "explanations", I simply acknowledge their worthlessness. You all seem to think I don't realize trannies exist. NO SHIT, they exist and they may feel that they are the opposite gender-sex, but they are wrong. They are sick individuals that need help realizing that they cannot ever be what their illness is telling them they are.

We don't tell retards they're "ok" and "normal" do we? We don't tell schizos they're just dandy, do we? The same policy should be applied to trannies as well, they must be made to acknowledge their ill state and must be brought to accept reality.

So do you seriously think that "Never be a real X!" is some new revelation no one has ever thought of before and that people aren't spending entire nights crying over that fact and you need to shout this new revolutionary idea from the rooftops and from the mountains and that people don't tell them this every fucking day and yet, somehow, it doesn't change anything as to how they feel?

Did you click my spoiler~

[Dumb Ideologies]

We've explained what it is far too many times already. Each time, our explanation has been completely ignored, without even being acknowledged. The transparent degree of your intellectual dishonesty is so great that it is beyond foolish to continue conversing with you. You are incapable of noticing or accounting for any potential criticism of your position, and therefore you are useless in terms of meaningful conversation. Until you acknowledge and at least attempt to parry our continued repetition of the incredibly basic explanation that was given to you, I, and I hope others, will no longer respond to anything you say. Conversation and debate with the intellectually dishonest is a waste of time and energy.

Good day.

I'm not ignoring your "explanations", I simply acknowledge their worthlessness. You all seem to think I don't realize trannies exist. NO SHIT, they exist and they may feel that they are the opposite gender-sex, but they are wrong.

Or perhaps your limited framework of sex/gender understanding is insufficient to allow you to grasp and acknowledge other people's lived reality.

We don't tell retards they're "ok" and "normal" do we? We don't tell schizos they're just dandy, do we? The same policy should be applied to trannies as well, they must be made to acknowledge their ill state and must be brought to accept reality.

Fairly lazy false equivalence, that.

[Zaras]

I'm not ignoring your "explanations", I simply acknowledge their worthlessness.

So you admit you have no argument and aren't doing anything in this thread besides going LALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

but they are wrong

And you're the fucking expert on what "wrong" is because...?.

[Alaje]

I'm not ignoring your "explanations", I simply acknowledge their worthlessness. You all seem to think I don't realize trannies exist. NO SHIT, they exist and they may feel that they are the opposite gender-sex, but they are wrong. They are sick individuals that need help realizing that they cannot ever be what their illness is telling them they are.

We don't tell retards they're "ok" and "normal" do we? We don't tell schizos they're just dandy, do we? The same policy should be applied to trannies as well, they must be made to acknowledge their ill state and must be brought to accept reality.

The fact that you're not intelligent enough to grasp what we were saying is your problem, not ours.

I feel sorry that you're not intelligent enough to realize an illness when you see one. Next thread we'll be discussing how retards are perfectly healthy.

[Zaras]

I feel sorry that you're not intelligent to realize an illness when to see one.

And you know what constitutes an illness because...?

Next thread we'll be discussing how retards are perfectly healthy.

And you're saying they aren't because...?

[CVT Temp]

That's not my point! You're a bad person if you find out about your role in perpetuating a privileged power structure and then you decide that preserving your privilege is more important than fighting injustice.

I never said you're a bad person for existing, but you have to be aware of certain things about your place in society that can make you uncomfortable.

I don't disagree with any of this. Sorry, it sounded like you were saying that all privileged people are enemies. Given intersectionality, that would basically make everyone a bad guy.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

We've explained what it is far too many times already. Each time, our explanation has been completely ignored, without even being acknowledged. The transparent degree of your intellectual dishonesty is so great that it is beyond foolish to continue conversing with you. You are incapable of noticing or accounting for any potential criticism of your position, and therefore you are useless in terms of meaningful conversation. Until you acknowledge and at least attempt to parry our continued repetition of the incredibly basic explanation that was given to you, I, and I hope others, will no longer respond to anything you say. Conversation and debate with the intellectually dishonest is a waste of time and energy.

Good day.

I'm not ignoring your "explanations", I simply acknowledge their worthlessness. You all seem to think I don't realize trannies exist. NO SHIT, they exist and they may feel that they are the opposite gender-sex, but they are wrong. They are sick individuals that need help realizing that they cannot ever be what their illness is telling them they are.

We don't tell retards they're "ok" and "normal" do we? We don't tell schizos they're just dandy, do we? The same policy should be applied to trannies as well, they must be made to acknowledge their ill state and must be brought to accept reality.

It isn't them that are divorced from reality.

If you have a functioning body, and a perfectly functioning brain, and the two happen not to match, it does not follow that either the brain or the body is faulty. It merely follows that one of the two needs altering in order for the two to work in harmony. As the brain is more central to the "self" than the body, alter the body.

I'm hoping an analogy will help.

If you have a perfectly functioning circuit-board (a brain), and a perfectly functioning loudspeaker (the body), but the loudspeaker is the wrong way round, then which are you going to alter to make the whole thing work in unison? Are you going to simply alter the loudspeaker, or remove the tracks from and completely remake the circuit board?

You're going to change the loudspeaker. I would hope.

[Cromarty]

how you lot don't grasp that is beyond me.

Because you're wrong?

Just a thought.

[CVT Temp]

I feel sorry that you're not intelligent enough to realize an illness when you see one. Next thread we'll be discussing how retards are perfectly healthy.

Kid, I'm so far out of your league it's hilarious. The level of Dunning-Kruger's in this post is incredible.

[CVT Temp]

It isn't them that are divorced from reality.

If you have a functioning body, and a perfectly functioning brain, and the two happen not to match, it does not follow that either the brain or the body is faulty. It merely follows that one of the two needs altering in order for the two to work in harmony. As the brain is more central to the "self" than the body, alter the body.

I'm hoping an analogy will help.

If you have a perfectly functioning circuit-board (a brain), and a perfectly functioning loudspeaker (the body), but the loudspeaker is the wrong way round, then which are you going to alter to make the whole thing work in unison? Are you going to simply alter the loudspeaker, or remove the tracks from and completely remake the circuit board?

You're going to change the loudspeaker. I would hope.

Nonsense! If my 9V battery doesn't work in my Gameboy, it must be because 9V batteries are all defective. Nuance is for pussies!

[Lancaster of Wessex]

I'm fairly liberal in many things, but this is just absurd.

I hope it does not pass council.

[Zaras]

I'm fairly liberal in many things, but this is just absurd.

Then you're clearly not liberal enough.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

I'm fairly liberal in many things, but this is just absurd.

Then you're clearly not liberal enough.

I'll be the judge of that, not you, or anyone else. *

*Some sarcasm intended.

[Qwanch]

That's stupid...