Gender titles to be scrapped in Brighton.

[Mavorpen]

I'm quite simply not tolerant enough for that, I don't think I would ever be able to think of a transsexual person as anything other than the sex they were born as in the back of my mind.

I don't consider the sex to have actually changed, I recognize the persons gender identity as independent from their sex but I consider sex to be based on genes.

An organism's sex is defined by the gametes it produces: males produce male gametes (spermatozoa, or sperm) while females produce female gametes (ova, or egg cells);

[Zaras]

Nice job derailing the topic btw. Hypocrisy at it's finest, Considering you always accuse me of it.

At least I use different derailing methods.

[Des-Bal]

Did you read the part about how no therapist or medical worker would call them ill? If they are not defined as ill by the people who define illness, it stands to reason they are not ill.

The problem is the reason they aren't being called ill is specifically because it's considered offensive.

[Woffordia]

Happy? Decent? If your happiness is derived from attempting to make a delusion reality, than it must be suppressed. It isn't decent to feed into the fantasies of the mentally ill.

Do you know what a delusion is? Have you EVER even looked at a dictionary?

Go ahead and define it for him.

[Zaras]

I'm not suprised to be honest, people don't have commonsense these days.

Your definition of "commonsense" is comparing transgendered persons to mentally ill persons. Your argument is invalid.

[Mavorpen]

Did you read the part about how no therapist or medical worker would call them ill? If they are not defined as ill by the people who define illness, it stands to reason they are not ill.

The problem is the reason they aren't being called ill is specifically because it's considered offensive.

No, the reason is because no one's proven they are ill.

[Woffordia]

Did you read the part about how no therapist or medical worker would call them ill? If they are not defined as ill by the people who define illness, it stands to reason they are not ill.

The problem is the reason they aren't being called ill is specifically because it's considered offensive.

OR it's because they are not ill. They merely want their body to look a different way.

[Zaras]

No credible medical specialist or therapist would call them ill. This is not a matter of being "liberal", it is a matter of being decent. We can keep gender titles, just stop calling them ill and respect their right to do as like to their own bodies, especially as it harms no one and makes them happy. If they look like the opposite sex, have the parts of the opposite sex, talk like them, have the same hormones, and wear the same clothes, then they are the opposite sex.

That's the problem, no it isn't. You can't say someone isn't ill just because it upsets them.

Considering transgenderism an illness is a crank opinion unworthy of being taken seriously.

[Zaras]

Mutual respect is important for any society.

Having a majority force the minority to conform to norms they imposed on society isn't a foundation for mutual trust.

[Des-Bal]

An organism's sex is defined by the gametes it produces: males produce male gametes (spermatozoa, or sperm) while females produce female gametes (ova, or egg cells);

The problem is that an individuals genetic sex, observed sex, gender identity, and about a dozen other relevant things are often called sex or gender interchangeably. Since I already know where this conversation is going I'm breaking out the unambiguous names.

Furp now refers to the gender someone feels they are
Burp now refers to the gender someone behaves
Gurp now refers to sex based on the persons genitals
Kurp now refers to the sex based on their DNA
Purp now refers to sex based on their non-genital appearance

[Alaje]

Happy? Decent? If your happiness is derived from attempting to make a delusion reality, than it must be suppressed. It isn't decent to feed into the fantasies of the mentally ill.

So again, you're telling me in a world where babies are born with deformed genitals, multiple genitals, no brains, no arms and penises on their heads and XXY XXXYY XXXXX XO XX male etc. etc. that it's literally impossible for the genitals to ever be mismatched and everyone is just delusional? Is that what you're saying?

I never said that genital mismatching never occurs, what I did say is that it is a defect. It's not normal.

Keep in mind there no cases of babies being born with anything resembling a flamingos body.

hey did you ever answer this one i can't remember

I don't think I saw this, but I will answer it.

Also I don't think you're understanding the relevance of my flamingo analogy. It has to do with transsexuality's relationship to species dysphoria, they are closely related.

[Zaras]

Happy? Decent? If your happiness is derived from attempting to make a delusion reality, than it must be suppressed. It isn't decent to feed into the fantasies of the mentally ill.

We can start by suppressing your fantasies that transgenderism is a mental illness.

[Delanshar]

A fact which you would only learn by reading it. My point is that I don't just read everyone's sig for fun.

Anyway, if your complaining about me not reading someones sig then I think it's fair to say you've run out of legitimate rebuttals about the actual topic at hand.

You're confusing complaining about it with using it to illustrate a point.

I would be confusing it.... if you actually made a point. But all you've proven is how desperate you are to prove me wrong that you'll pretend sigs and posts are the same thing.

[Woffordia]

Did you read the part about how no therapist or medical worker would call them ill? If they are not defined as ill by the people who define illness, it stands to reason they are not ill.

The problem is the reason they aren't being called ill is specifically because it's considered offensive.

You get the award for most unsupported opinion!

[Des-Bal]

OR it's because they are not ill. They merely want their body to look a different way.

Because it's just casual desire, like wanting a new haircut.

[Zaras]

Edit: Except Islam of course, they are the religion of Peace (and don't you forget it- or else)

Thanks for the snarky Islamophobic ignorant sentence that doesn't contribute to the topic.

[Desperate Measures]

That's the problem, no it isn't. You can't say someone isn't ill just because it upsets them.

Considering transgenderism an illness is a crank opinion unworthy of being taken seriously.

Truth.

[Mavorpen]

The problem is that an individuals genetic sex, observed sex, gender identity, and about a dozen other relevant things are often called sex or gender interchangeably. Since I already know where this conversation is going I'm breaking out the unambiguous names.

Furp now refers to the gender someone feels they are
Burp now refers to the gender someone behaves
Gurp now refers to sex based on the persons genitals
Kurp now refers to the sex based on their DNA
Purp now refers to sex based on their non-genital appearance

Here we go again. You're using vernacular usage and pretending that it matters in a SCIENTIFIC and MEDICAL discussion.

[Zaras]

Did you read the part about how no therapist or medical worker would call them ill? If they are not defined as ill by the people who define illness, it stands to reason they are not ill.

The problem is the reason they aren't being called ill is specifically because it's considered offensive.

No, it's specifically because it isn't true. Do try to follow along.

[Mavorpen]

No response to this?

So in other words Hitler made excellent cherry tarts? I don't see how that's relevant to the conversation.

Evidence isn't relevant to this discussion?

If you have to start a sentence "in other words" you have nothing of value to say. I've already stated my opinion and explained why transgenderism meets the criteria to be considered a defect there's nothing left to discuss about it.

Oh yes, you've explained it. You literally said, "Because they are imperfect." You then refuse to define what perfect is, and completely ignore the fact that most psychologists and the people in the medical field don't even use the word "defect," they use disorder, because the word defect is so vague that it's entirely subjective. When it comes to medicine, what distinguishes a disorder from a non-disorder is if functioning is affected. You've STILL not given an actual argument explaining how functioning is affected. The closest you came was giving a circular argument.

>Functioning is affected because they desire to get surgery.
>They desire this because of their functioning being affected.

You've YET to realize that you can't prove that they have a defect, because the definition of defect is literally up in the air about what it means. You've YET to actually prove that functioning is affected in any significant way.

So please, do us a favor and stop pretending like you've contributed anything to this discussion that is groundbreaking.

[Woffordia]

So again, you're telling me in a world where babies are born with deformed genitals, multiple genitals, no brains, no arms and penises on their heads and XXY XXXYY XXXXX XO XX male etc. etc. that it's literally impossible for the genitals to ever be mismatched and everyone is just delusional? Is that what you're saying?

I never said that genital mismatching never occurs, what I did say is that it is a defect. It's not normal.

Keep in mind there no cases of babies being born with anything resembling a flamingos body.

hey did you ever answer this one i can't remember

I don't think I saw is, but I will answer it.

Also I don't think you're understanding the relevance of my flamingo analogy. It has to do with transsexuality's relationship to species dysphoria, they are closely related.

Show it is related to species dysphoria.

[Zaras]

You're confusing complaining about it with using it to illustrate a point.

I would be confusing it.... if you actually made a point. But all you've proven is how desperate you are to prove me wrong that you'll pretend sigs and posts are the same thing.

The fact that I got a word wrong in my initial post is besides the point.

[Desperate Measures]

OR it's because they are not ill. They merely want their body to look a different way.

Because it's just casual desire, like wanting a new haircut.

Holy shit. You know nothing about what it is to be transgender. Absolutely nothing. Why are you arguing about something you have just proven to not have the first clue about?

[Mavorpen]

I don't think I saw this, but I will answer it.

Also I don't think you're understanding the relevance of my flamingo analogy. It has to do with transsexuality's relationship to species dysphoria, they are closely related.

Please, tell us more about how species dysphoria is directly linked to the structure of the brain.

[Des-Bal]

Here we go again. You're using vernacular usage and pretending that it matters in a SCIENTIFIC and MEDICAL discussion.

No I'm not. I'm trying to state my position completely and totally unambiguously.

The statement which you responded to can be considered my assertion that Kurp is the most significant factor in recognizing an individuals sex.