A Green-Libertarian Alliance

[PapaJacky]

Green Party + Justice Party, now that's a party I can support.

[Minarchist Territory of Pineland]

How did tape trading work anyways?

It's ok. You can snidely dodge the question to avoid facing the harsh realizations, of not wanting to admit you were wrong. That, in itself, is kind of an answer in some regards.

There are several anarchist schools of thought with regards to economics, some of which advocate markets and some of which don't. A market system is not necessarily capitalist, BTW.

I wasn't asking what other schools thought.

I was asking what YOU thought. What YOUR methodology was. And you chose to go silent and vague.

So my point still stands, people go silent and vague because they don't know how to provide any credible alternative methodologies, for the radical stances they claim to support. That's adorable.

Instead, they just shift all the blame of society's problems into superficial things, like an employer having the freedom to sack their employee, if they're being a pain. That's why this whole ordeal and backlash started in the first place. The try hard far left agenda was just being anti-capitalist, for the sake of being anti-capitalist, but it never actually fitted in with the purpose of what the thread was originally asking.

[Meryuma]

was asking what YOU thought. What YOUR methodology was. And you chose to go silent and vague.

That's because it's a red herring.

[Minarchist Territory of Pineland]

was asking what YOU thought. What YOUR methodology was. And you chose to go silent and vague.

That's because it's a red herring.

How?

It just sounds like answer dodging to me.

[Shatters]

people so stupid as to require managing should be left to die.

Without order and authority you can't have your precious rights.

I always thought that syndicalist where a type of anarchist.....

Gary Johnson will let you smoke weed, how can you still not vote for him?

better than Bob Barr!!!!! probably the best candidate the LP has ran since Harry Brown.

Gary Johnson will let you smoke weed, how can you still not vote for him?

Because he's a vulgar libertarian who thinks welfare is a serious problem for freedom but anti-piracy laws aren't, and he supports the "Fair"Tax, i.e. the doublespeak tax..

I'm assuming that "fair tax" is slang for flat tax. I am pretty sure that Johnson also supports competition in currency, which can't effectively co-exist with a progressive tax structure and since competition in currency is going to do more to protect the poor than a progressive tax structure it would seem like a necessary trade off. Personally I think any one who has received $1,000,000 or more in paychecks from the US Government should be taxed at 100% on income and 95%+ on wealth...... but it's really too bad that The Pirate Party and Marijuana Party both endorsed Obama and the Boston Tea Party Political Party disbanded.

Because his economic policies are nuts.

He has too much faith in the private sector to do research.

Government in the US takes up something like 30-40% of the economy. It really doesn't qualify as an accomplishment when government occasionally does something useful.

[Arumdaum]

Why would a party like the Libertarians - well known for supporting individual freedom and personal sovereignty - join with a group of hardcore socialists and anti-propertarians? By far a better strategy for breaking the corporate-liberal elite is Right-Wing Populism, which will soon have great success as the establishment crashes all around us.

The left and right are useless, the center is the way forward.

What is the center?

[Norsklow]

The left and right are useless, the center is the way forward.

What is the center?

The area near 0,0 on your Political Compass.

[Arumdaum]

What is the center?

The area near 0,0 on your Political Compass.

You can get to the center by having a similar amount of extremely anarchistic and authoritarian views, as well as socialist and capitalist.

[Meryuma]

That's because it's a red herring.

How?

It just sounds like answer dodging to me.

When I pointed out that it was an ad hominem for you to dismiss my arguments based on my ideology, you asked why I think my ideology would work. You're incapable of admitting a mistake - instead you try and change the subject in hopes it can be swept under the rug.

Without order and authority you can't have your precious rights.

I always thought that syndicalist where a type of anarchist.....

You have anarcho-syndicalists and non-anarchist syndicalists as well.

As for the "Fair"Tax, it's an over 20% national sales tax. The sensible alternative is geoism.

[Norsklow]

The area near 0,0 on your Political Compass.

You can get to the center by having a similar amount of extremely anarchistic and authoritarian views, as well as socialist and capitalist.

I suppose. And?

[Arumdaum]

You can get to the center by having a similar amount of extremely anarchistic and authoritarian views, as well as socialist and capitalist.

I suppose. And?

Would you really consider that the center? Do you really think that a two-dimensional scale of left-right and authoritarian-libertarian is enough to represent anything accurately?

In this, there could be a million centers. There is no actual "center", as it's impossible to rate where someone stands on an issue.

[Meryuma]

What is the center?

The area near 0,0 on your Political Compass.

oh god no

horrible quiz, not binding on anything

[Arumdaum]

Outside the collectivist hellhole that is the United States, the 'Publicans would be considered fascist.

Fascism is a system in which the government leaves nominal ownership of the means of production in the hands of private individuals but exercises control by means of regulatory legislation and reaps most of the profit by means of heavy taxation.

~ The Market for Liberty, by Linda and Morris Tannehill

Economically and fiscally, Republicans are distant from the fascist ideology.

Hahahahahahaha, that is not what fascism is.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

You don't seem to understand what freedom is.

Economic and personal freedom are NOT THE SAME DAMN THING.

Meanwhile, in the real world, it's not possible to have one without the other.

So for all practical purposes, they effectively are. And libertarians hate both.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Fascism is a system in which the government leaves nominal ownership of the means of production in the hands of private individuals but exercises control by means of regulatory legislation and reaps most of the profit by means of heavy taxation.

~ The Market for Liberty, by Linda and Morris Tannehill

Economically and fiscally, Republicans are distant from the fascist ideology.

Hahahahahahaha, that is not what fascism is.

No, but the GOP is not even close to Fascist.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

I don't deny that they're for something they call economic freedom. Just that what they call economic freedom isn't really economic freedom, just like even though Calvinism calls itself Christianity it isn't really Christianity but rather institutionalized narcissism.

You equate free for all in having a job and stuff as economic freedom? Your joking right?
Economic freedom is when(and I pulled out my handy dandy dictionary for you)freedom to produce, trade and consume any goods and services acquired without the use of force, fraud or theft.

Which is exactly what I said, and is exactly what Libertarians oppose.

Why do you hate freedom so much?

And I am sorry as soon as you enter the state into this, it is not free anymore. And apparently YOU want more state intervention, which means LESS freedom.

Who said anything about the state?

Though, since you brought it up, does state intervention in a man holding a roomful of people hostage at gunpoint mean, for everyone aggregately, more or less freedom overall?

Same goes for personal and political freedoms too. Which the Libertarian party supports.

Except they don't.

"As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others." http://www.lp.org/platform

Except that's the exact opposite of what they actually try to implement.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Economic and personal freedom are NOT THE SAME DAMN THING.

Meanwhile, in the real world, it's not possible to have one without the other.

So for all practical purposes, they effectively are. And libertarians hate both.

Bluth, sometimes, you make my head hurt.

I'm going to regret this.

Please explain.

*regrets it*

[Meryuma]

Outside the collectivist hellhole that is the United States, the 'Publicans would be considered fascist.

Fascism is a system in which the government leaves nominal ownership of the means of production in the hands of private individuals but exercises control by means of regulatory legislation and reaps most of the profit by means of heavy taxation.

~ The Market for Liberty, by Linda and Morris Tannehill

Economically and fiscally, Republicans are distant from the fascist ideology.

Erm...

Fascism (play /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.[1][2] Fascists seek to unify their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people through national identity.[3][4] The unity of the nation is to be based upon suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of the national community through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.[3][4]

Fascism - definition
A totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life. The name was first used by the party started by Benito Mussolini , who ruled Italy from 1922 until the Italian defeat in World War II. However, it has also been applied to similar ideologies in other countries, e.g., to National Socialism in Germany and to the regime of Francisco Franco in Spain.

fas·cism
   [fash-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3.
( initial capital letter ) a fascist movement, especially the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922–43.

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

tl;dr you're both wrong.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Wow some people on here have a distorted view of liberty and freedom. So you will take the FREEDOM of the employer away to give it to the employee?

The supposed "freedom" to make decisions about life and death over others is not real freedom.

What makes the employee more special?

Unlike the employer, he's not a slavemaster.

Did he start the business and put risk into it? No.

The employer didn't really do anything special either. He just got lucky. In the real world, that's really all it is, no matter how much those who benefit from it like to pretend otherwise.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Meanwhile, in the real world, it's not possible to have one without the other.

So for all practical purposes, they effectively are. And libertarians hate both.

Bluth, sometimes, you make my head hurt.

I'm going to regret this.

Please explain.

*regrets it*

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=11373143#p11373143

[PapaJacky]

How?

It just sounds like answer dodging to me.

When I pointed out that it was an ad hominem for you to dismiss my arguments based on my ideology, you asked why I think my ideology would work. You're incapable of admitting a mistake - instead you try and change the subject in hopes it can be swept under the rug.

I always thought that syndicalist where a type of anarchist.....

You have anarcho-syndicalists and non-anarchist syndicalists as well.

As for the "Fair"Tax, it's an over 20% national sales tax. The sensible alternative is geoism.

The sensible alternative is ending SSA, downsizing the military to focus on R&D and not procurement, removing religious exemptions from taxes, closing tax expenditures for the wealthy, and ending the Bush Tax Cuts on the wealthy as well.

[Meryuma]

When I pointed out that it was an ad hominem for you to dismiss my arguments based on my ideology, you asked why I think my ideology would work. You're incapable of admitting a mistake - instead you try and change the subject in hopes it can be swept under the rug.



You have anarcho-syndicalists and non-anarchist syndicalists as well.

As for the "Fair"Tax, it's an over 20% national sales tax. The sensible alternative is geoism.

The sensible alternative is ending SSA, downsizing the military to focus on R&D and not procurement, removing religious exemptions from taxes, closing tax expenditures for the wealthy, and ending the Bush Tax Cuts on the wealthy as well.

Actually, it's removing restrictions on labor organizing, legalizing filesharing and marijuana, reducing the defense budget, ending corporate subsidies and corporate personhood, getting rid of eminent domain and switching to the aforementioned geoist tax policy. This would be a great green/libertarian coalition platform but sadly is too radical to make it in the generally futile world of modern US electoral politics.

[Minarchist Territory of Pineland]

How?

It just sounds like answer dodging to me.

When I pointed out that it was an ad hominem for you to dismiss my arguments based on my ideology, you asked why I think my ideology would work. You're incapable of admitting a mistake - instead you try and change the subject in hopes it can be swept under the rug.

And I've already told you I'm not dismissing your arguments, or trying to apply any ad hominem. I am simply asking you, and waiting for, your own detailed portrayal of how you would achieve your means of survival, in a world shaped by your own definition of economic freedom, which from the discussion so far seems to be akin to that of a hypothetical world where employment and bosses do not exist (or at the very least, a boss isn't in charge of their own company). So, how will you pull this off? If I was dismissing anything, it was the credibility of ideological sheep, who sprout an ideology name and think it equates to a sophisticated answer. I was actually trying to give you more credit, and allow you to explain your individual perception and methodology.

I'm not exactly asking you to split the atom here. I can't dismiss something, if you haven't even said it yet.

[Meryuma]

When I pointed out that it was an ad hominem for you to dismiss my arguments based on my ideology, you asked why I think my ideology would work. You're incapable of admitting a mistake - instead you try and change the subject in hopes it can be swept under the rug.

And I've already told you I'm not dismissing your arguments, or trying to apply any ad hominem. I am simply asking you, and waiting for, your own detailed portrayal of how you would achieve your means of survival, in a world shaped by your own definition of economic freedom, which from the discussion so far seems to be akin to that of a hypothetical world where employment and bosses do not exist (or at the very least, a boss isn't in charge of their own company). So, how will you pull this off? If I was dismissing anything, it was the credibility of ideological sheep, who sprout an ideology name and think it equates to a sophisticated answer. I was actually trying to give you more credit, and allow you to explain your individual perception and methodology.

I'm not exactly asking you to split the atom here. I can't dismiss something, if you haven't even said it yet.

Saying "nuh-uh I didn't" and making accusations based on my refusal to answer a fairly irrelevant question, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

I was referring to you going on about how my argument was wrong because it's "Marxist" when I talk about you committing ad hominems and stuff, BTW.

[Communal Ecotopia]

Fuck, I doubt that they would even have the numbers to elect a senator.

Did the LP alone not already manage to elevate a wrestler or two into Governorship?

The Independence Party is a pretty different animal from the Libertarian Party. In Minnesota, the IP is sort-of the social center and fiscal center-right (but hardly libertarian). As for the Reform Party, fuck-all if it can decide what it stands for.