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What happened to Abraham's Republican Party?

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Lord Tothe
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Postby Lord Tothe » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:13 am

Jinos wrote:
Lord Tothe wrote:You don't seem to understand Abraham Lincoln. He was a warmongering, debt-spending, bill-of-rights-crushing tyrant. The only thing people remember about him is he talked against slavery.


Uh-oh. It's a neo-confederate.

Are you going to tell us about the War of Northern Aggression now?

Lolno. Nice strawman, BTW. Scarecrows are nice seasonal decor.

Just saying his reputation as the Great Protector of Freedom is exaggerated. Speaking out against slavery while building a conscripted army, instituting an income tax, and jailing dissenters is hypocritical. Lysander Spooner is the abolitionist who had it right.

Risottia wrote:
Raeyh wrote:Abraham was war hungry, too.

How many foreign countries did the Lincoln administration invade, actually?

Well, either the Confederacy did have the right to secede, and he waged a war against a foreign nation; or they did not have the right to secede, and he waged war against the states and committed treason :D

Do I really have to say that slavery is evil, and I have no sympathy for people who claim to own other people?
Last edited by Lord Tothe on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:17 am

Lord Tothe wrote: Speaking out against slavery while building a conscripted army, instituting an income tax, and jailing dissenters is hypocritical.


Oh no. More lolbertarianism.

It's the IngSocLib slogan all over again. All they can say is
TAXATION IS THEFT
CONSCRIPTION IS SLAVERY
PRIVATE PROPERTY IS INFRASTRUCTURE
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:19 am

Lord Tothe wrote:
Risottia wrote:How many foreign countries did the Lincoln administration invade, actually?

Well, either the Confederacy did have the right to secede, and he waged a war against a foreign nation; or they did not have the right to secede, and he waged war against the states and committed treason :D


Or maybe rebels declared a secession and attacked the US military. Funny how some people tend to forget that.
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Lord Tothe
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Postby Lord Tothe » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:23 am

Risottia wrote:
Lord Tothe wrote:Well, either the Confederacy did have the right to secede, and he waged a war against a foreign nation; or they did not have the right to secede, and he waged war against the states and committed treason :D


Or maybe rebels declared a secession and attacked the US military. Funny how some people tend to forget that.

My point is just that people think of the civil war as North=good, south=bad. Reality was north = pretty dang bad, south = pretty dang bad. The political and economic circumstances were more complex than just south=slavery, north = freedom. And the legends of Lincoln the Hero are mythical exaggerations and selective memory of his full legacy.
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Ralkovia
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Postby Ralkovia » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:38 am

Lord Tothe wrote:
Risottia wrote:
Or maybe rebels declared a secession and attacked the US military. Funny how some people tend to forget that.

My point is just that people think of the civil war as North=good, south=bad. Reality was north = pretty dang bad, south = pretty dang bad. The political and economic circumstances were more complex than just south=slavery, north = freedom. And the legends of Lincoln the Hero are mythical exaggerations and selective memory of his full legacy.


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Last edited by Ralkovia on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Meridiani Planum
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Postby Meridiani Planum » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:12 am

Condunum wrote:What's so funny about the Republicans being far-right? They are.


It is funny, because they are just barely right-of-center in America. I suppose that they are far-right by European standards, but then the Democratic Party is pretty far-right by their standards.
Last edited by Meridiani Planum on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Meridiani Planum
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Postby Meridiani Planum » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:13 am

Risottia wrote:
Oh no. More lolbertarianism.


That's better than lolsocialism.
Last edited by Meridiani Planum on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:27 am

Meridiani Planum wrote:
Risottia wrote:
Oh no. More lolbertarianism.


That's better than lolsocialism.


Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :rofl:

No, it isn't.

Meridiani Planum wrote:It is funny, because they are just barely right-of-center in America.


Says a lot about how fucked up the USA's politics is.

I suppose that they are far-right by European standards, but then the Democratic Party is pretty far-right by their standards.


Nah, the Democratic Party rates as centre-rightist at best, rightist generally on the European spectrum. They'd probably land the CDU/CSU, PP and Conservatives as neighbours.
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Not Safe For Work
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Postby Not Safe For Work » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:29 am

Lord Tothe wrote:
Risottia wrote:
Or maybe rebels declared a secession and attacked the US military. Funny how some people tend to forget that.

My point is just that people think of the civil war as North=good, south=bad. Reality was north = pretty dang bad, south = pretty dang bad. The political and economic circumstances were more complex than just south=slavery, north = freedom. And the legends of Lincoln the Hero are mythical exaggerations and selective memory of his full legacy.


It's not really selective memory - it's a deliberate choice to ignore that which does not fit the preconception.

So Lincoln is an abolitionist hero - despite his actual beliefs:

http://www.nps.gov/liho/historyculture/debate4.htm

    "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races... that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Similarly, it is ignored that Lincoln was profoundly in favor of fanatical white-supremacist Hinton Rowan Helper, and that Lincoln's party circulated Helper's text as a campaign document - which DID denounce slavery, but not because it was considered that black Americans deserved emancipation, but because it was argued that the institution of slavery was a burden on the Southern economy.

Lincoln's Republican party hated black Americans. Abolition was at best a political convenience, and at worst, the fulfillment of a white supremacist agenda.
Last edited by Not Safe For Work on Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:38 am

Not Safe For Work wrote:Lincoln's Republican party hated black Americans. Abolition was at best a political convenience, and at worst, the fulfillment of a white supremacist agenda.


I doubt there was a party at that point that didn't hate black Americans...
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

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Yewhohohopia
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Postby Yewhohohopia » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:09 am

Lord Tothe wrote:You don't seem to understand Abraham Lincoln. He was a warmongering, debt-spending, bill-of-rights-crushing tyrant. The only thing people remember about him is he talked against slavery.

Other than your good self, uniquely endowed with wisdom, of course.
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Tahar Joblis
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Postby Tahar Joblis » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:32 am

Not Safe For Work wrote:
Lord Tothe wrote:My point is just that people think of the civil war as North=good, south=bad. Reality was north = pretty dang bad, south = pretty dang bad. The political and economic circumstances were more complex than just south=slavery, north = freedom. And the legends of Lincoln the Hero are mythical exaggerations and selective memory of his full legacy.


It's not really selective memory - it's a deliberate choice to ignore that which does not fit the preconception.

So Lincoln is an abolitionist hero - despite his actual beliefs:

He changed his mind. It happens. Meet Frederick Douglass, have a few racial stereotypes overturned, etc etc.

Lincoln was also very overtly a friend of the working man - unlike today's Republicans - so much so that Karl Marx personally wrote a letter of congratulations to Lincoln on winning the election.

Lincoln himself said:

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

This would be a lynch-worthy statement in today's Republican party. The Republican party has changed, it is not Lincoln's party any more.

1. After Lincoln, corruption set in as the Republicans firmly held the reins of power for a generation. There remained a progressive wing to the party, however.
2. This ended after Teddy Roosevelt and Taft had a falling-out. Roosevelt ran against Taft, and took the support of progressive voters with them. This was the death of Republican progressivism; with the progressives having stormed out of the party in anger, who was left running the show were the monied interests.
3. When FDR took office, the Republican party very nearly died right then and there. The election of '32 left 117 Republican members of the House and 36 Republican senators. The modern Republican party consisted of those who defined themselves by their opposition to FDR.
4. In '48, Southern Democrats began to break away from the party. In '64, with Nixon's southern strategy and led by prominent key defectors like Strom Thurmond, Southern conservatives joined the Republican party, which began to bill itself as favoring "states' rights," i.e., old traditional saws of the Southern Democrats a hundred years earlier. The transition of Southerners into the Republican party was slower on the state level than the national level, but no less real.
5. In the wake of WWII, with the USSR prominent and a platform revolving around attacking the New Deal, Republicans defined themselves as the anti-Communist party - this, when Lincoln was the closest to a Communist that we've ever had in office!
6. Ronald Reagan brought the religious right into the fold. [Before that, Nixon had been raised a Quaker and Carter was evangelical.]

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Seleucas
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Postby Seleucas » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:35 am

Lord Tothe wrote:Just saying his reputation as the Great Protector of Freedom is exaggerated. Speaking out against slavery while building a conscripted army, instituting an income tax, and jailing dissenters is hypocritical. Lysander Spooner is the abolitionist who had it right.


He really only was against slavery on a strategic basis; during his debates with Stephen Douglas, he went as far as saying as he would not be opposed to slave states joining the Union, he also supported the Corwin Amendment, put a clause in the Emancipation Proclamation that would nullify it if the South rejoined, and was willing even to the end of the war to let the South rejoin with slavery (such as his meeting with the South at the Hampton Roads Conference.)

And yes, Lysander Spooner is pretty awesome.
Last edited by Seleucas on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Emerald Dawn » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:37 am

Tenden wrote:So,the Republican party has become nothing more than racial and religious, anti-abortion zealots, homophobes, gun nuts, jingoists and war hungry bigots.Abraham was the first Republican president,and his republicans would be disappointed with modern republicans.They have went from the party that ended slavery to the party that supports segregation.They have went from the party of liberty to the new far-right wing party of the US.They seem to have abandoned him and decided to join the party of Ronald Reagen.What ever happened to Abraham's Republican Party? Are there any Republicans who are still the party of Abraham Lincoln?

"Reconstruction". That's what happened.

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Shadowlandistan
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Postby Shadowlandistan » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:38 am

It's pretty much impossible to compare political affiliation so long ago in the past. My guess is he would be close to Obama. The old Democrats were the backwards ones back then as well.
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:39 am

Condunum wrote:
Gaveo wrote:
Two things,
The first Republican was the Jefferson one...
And Republicans as far-right? :rofl:


What's so funny about the Republicans being far-right? They are.

Granted they're not QUITE as bad as the BNP, but I'd wager they're worse then the Torys.
Last edited by Genivaria on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Samuraikoku
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Postby Samuraikoku » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:40 am

They've become heretics. They have failed the Emperor. *nods*

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:42 am

Genivaria wrote:Granted they're not QUITE as bad as the BNP, but I'd wager they're worse then the Torys.

Well, one should also consider how the Bliar's Labour was the lapdog of the Bushevik neocons...
So maybe that's more of a problem with British political landscape than with the American one.

Samuraikoku wrote:They've become heretics. They have failed the Emperor. *nods*

Aye, aye, sir. We should sterilize their convention from orbit.
Last edited by Risottia on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Tarvelia
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Postby Tarvelia » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:52 am

Balanced budgets and low taxes is far-right-wing?


Racist? Here is a list of some of the minorities of our party, most of whom are racist tea party types.
Susana Martinez
Allen West
Artur Davis
Raul Labrador
Mia Love
Ted Cruz (I voted for him in the TX primaries over an "old white guy")
Marco Rubio
Nikki Haley
Bobby Jindal
Luis Fortuno
Gary Franks
J. C. Watts
Tim Scott
Melvin Evans
Bill Florez
Herman Cain
Condeleezza Rice
Alveda King, neice of MLK Jr.

These are probably the better members of the party, McConnel and Boehner are spineless cowards in my opinion.
The list goes on, anyone can resort to childish name-calling.
Last edited by Tarvelia on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:26 pm

Tarvelia wrote:Balanced budgets and low taxes is far-right-wing?


Low taxes is profoundly idiotic, given that America lived through a 91% top tax rate in the 1950s and nobody whined. Liberalism's belief in investing money in public services and institutions meant to reduce inequality is the best thing to ever happen to the USA.

Racist? Here is a list of some of the minorities of our party, most of whom are racist tea party types.
Susana Martinez
Allen West
Artur Davis
Raul Labrador
Mia Love
Ted Cruz (I voted for him in the TX primaries over an "old white guy")
Marco Rubio
Nikki Haley
Bobby Jindal
Luis Fortuno
Gary Franks
J. C. Watts
Tim Scott
Melvin Evans
Bill Florez
Herman Cain
Condeleezza Rice
Alveda King, neice of MLK Jr.


Token minorities prove nothing.

And seriously, Allen West? The guy is a fuckhead with shit between his ears where his brain should be. A serious party would kick out idiots like him.
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Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

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Postby Divair » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:30 pm

Zaras wrote:Low taxes is profoundly idiotic, given that America lived through a 91% top tax rate in the 1950s and nobody whined. Liberalism's belief in investing money in public services and institutions meant to reduce inequality is the best thing to ever happen to the USA.

Wait just a minute.

Economic liberalism is right wing. I think you're confusing social liberalism (something most leftists support) with leftist/centrist economics.

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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:36 pm

Divair wrote:
Zaras wrote:Low taxes is profoundly idiotic, given that America lived through a 91% top tax rate in the 1950s and nobody whined. Liberalism's belief in investing money in public services and institutions meant to reduce inequality is the best thing to ever happen to the USA.

Wait just a minute.

Economic liberalism is right wing. I think you're confusing social liberalism (something most leftists support) with leftist/centrist economics.


I was using the stupid American jargon where "liberalism" means "everything left of centre-right".

The fact is, as close as America got to social democracy was the best thing to ever happen to the USA, from Roosevelt up until Reagan fucked everything up. High progressive taxes, investment in public services, good public education, pensions, welfare, all the New Deal.

It's very frustrating seeing how America's starting to become more progressive on social matters like gay marriage at the same time that the right-wing has wrecked the massively successful post-war liberal consensus.
Last edited by Zaras on Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
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Choronzon
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Postby Choronzon » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:37 pm

All the plantation owner's decedents joined it, thats what happened.

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Divair
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Postby Divair » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:39 pm

Zaras wrote:
Divair wrote:Wait just a minute.

Economic liberalism is right wing. I think you're confusing social liberalism (something most leftists support) with leftist/centrist economics.


I was using the stupid American jargon where "liberalism" means "everything left of centre-right".

The fact is, as close as America got to social democracy was the best thing to ever happen to the USA, from Roosevelt up until Reagan fucked everything up. High progressive taxes, investment in public services, good public education, pensions, welfare, all the New Deal.

It's very frustrating seeing how America's starting to become more progressive on social matters like gay marriage at the same time that the right-wing has wrecked the massively successful post-war liberal consensus.

Maybe all the left wing Americans ran away to Canada?

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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:45 pm

Divair wrote:
Zaras wrote:
I was using the stupid American jargon where "liberalism" means "everything left of centre-right".

The fact is, as close as America got to social democracy was the best thing to ever happen to the USA, from Roosevelt up until Reagan fucked everything up. High progressive taxes, investment in public services, good public education, pensions, welfare, all the New Deal.

It's very frustrating seeing how America's starting to become more progressive on social matters like gay marriage at the same time that the right-wing has wrecked the massively successful post-war liberal consensus.

Maybe all the left wing Americans ran away to Canada?


Maybe America never really had a left-wing in the first place? Unlike civilized countries, America repressed the living fuck out of its labour movements, and whatever gains the Progressives may have brought were flushed down the toilet by America's silly two-party system.
Bythyrona wrote:
Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
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