The Worst President of America

[Jeneri]

It's an OBAMANATION vote conservative in 2010

[Treznor]

It's an OBAMANATION vote conservative in 2010

I'm thinking Canada's looking really good right now. Voting conservative strikes me as playing Russian Roulette with a loaded 9mm semi-automatic gun.

[Allanea]

It's an OBAMANATION vote conservative in 2010

I'm thinking Canada's looking really good right now,

Well, because there's a "conservative" in charge.

[Treznor]

It's an OBAMANATION vote conservative in 2010

I'm thinking Canada's looking really good right now,

Well, because there's a "conservative" in charge.

He's on his way out, and he hasn't yet managed to dismantle the hybrid socialist policies that provide Canadians with a higher standard of living than Americans.

[Allanea]

Clearly we need to work harder.

[Treznor]

Clearly we need to work harder.

You're right. Conservatives keep acting as though the last eight years haven't thoroughly discredited the ideology, and it really needs to a proper burial.

[TannerFrankLand]

Clearly we need to work harder.

You're right. Conservatives keep acting as though the last eight years haven't thoroughly discredited the ideology, and it really needs to a proper burial.

Wait, you think Bush was a conservative?
Did you miss the part where he signed the bailout bills?
I'm not looking forward to having a failure medical system like Canada, no one get's treatment in time, but hey, it's free!

[Allanea]

Clearly we need to work harder.

You're right. Conservatives keep acting as though the last eight years haven't thoroughly discredited the ideology, and it really needs to a proper burial.

We can start by actually putting conservatives in charge.

[I see you did not respond to my request for support for your claim that VP Cheney ordered the Abu-Ghraib torture, nor at least explained why would Cheney order troops to rape inmates]

[Treznor]

Clearly we need to work harder.

You're right. Conservatives keep acting as though the last eight years haven't thoroughly discredited the ideology, and it really needs to a proper burial.

Wait, you think Bush was a conservative?

I think Bush was the logical conclusion of conservative ideology. He was hailed as Reagan's ideological heir, and still admired by hard-core conservatives. His numbers only started slipping when the problems of his administration grew too big to contain (like Katrina).

Did you miss the part where he signed the bailout bills?

Nope. Corporate interests have always been paramount in the conservative ideology that began with Nixon, hit its stride with Reagan and concluded with Bush.

I'm not looking forward to having a failure medical system like Canada, no one get's treatment in time, but hey, it's free!

Let me know when it gets there. At least all Canadians have access to reasonable health care, instead of the crisis management they tout in the US. What's that saying about an ounce of prevention?

[Allanea]

He was hailed as Reagan's ideological heir, and still admired by hard-core conservatives.

Who are those mythical hard-core conservatives? Conservatives (including such groups as the Heritage foundation) attacked Bush again and again for his support of massive non-defense spending.

[Treznor]

Clearly we need to work harder.

You're right. Conservatives keep acting as though the last eight years haven't thoroughly discredited the ideology, and it really needs to a proper burial.

We can start by actually putting conservatives in charge.

Yeah, just like Libertarianism hasn't really been tried. When it fails, move the goalposts.

[I see you did not respond to my request for support for your claim that VP Cheney ordered the Abu-Ghraib torture, nor at least explained why would Cheney order troops to rape inmates]

I guess I missed that. Mea culpa.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/22/us.torture.karpinski/index.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article6207484.ece

[TannerFrankLand]

Did you miss the part where he signed the bailout bills?

Nope. Corporate interests have always been paramount in the conservative ideology that began with Nixon, hit its stride with Reagan and concluded with Bush.

Let's see so by that Logic Pelosi is a Conservative since she supports bailouts along with all the other liberals? No, government taking control of private industry is the exact oposite of what any conservative wants.

I'm not looking forward to having a failure medical system like Canada, no one get's treatment in time, but hey, it's free!

Let me know when it gets there. At least all Canadians have access to reasonable health care, instead of the crisis management they tout in the US. What's that saying about an ounce of prevention?

Yes, and when people need healthcare and they have to wait weeks to get into a doctor it is obviously a great system.

[Allanea]

Yeah, just like Libertarianism hasn't really been tried. When it fails, move the goalposts.

Conservatism is a coalition of various movements. Bush is a neocon. He believes in keeping big govenrment and spending shitloads of money on shit. As such, he's not the same as the Heritage foundation.

Libertarianism is beyond the scope of this discussion altogether, and no, it hasn't been tried.

The report points to then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's approval of such techniques -- including stress positions, removal of clothing, use of phobias (such as fear of dogs), and deprivation of light and auditory stimuli -- in December 2002 for detainees at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

This is not the same as rape, torture by electricity, or being beaten to death. Nor is there mention of Cheney in the CNN article. The Times article only mentions in the blurb that he demanded that Obama revealed the "successes" of these "techniques" (which are not the same as what happened at the AG).

Oh, sure, the widdle-innocent-torturers claim they were just followink ordas. Of course, they weren't, but even if they were it's no excuse.

[Allanea]

Yes, and when people need healthcare and they have to wait weeks to get into a doctor it is obviously a great system.

At least they don't have to BRIBE the doctor!

[Treznor]

Nope. Corporate interests have always been paramount in the conservative ideology that began with Nixon, hit its stride with Reagan and concluded with Bush.

Let's see so by that Logic Pelosi is a Conservative since she supports bailouts along with all the other liberals? No, government taking control of private industry is the exact oposite of what any conservative wants.

Pelosi is a neoliberal who sucks up to corporate interests for political gain, and pays lip service to liberal ideals. I was rather hoping she'd lose her last primary challenge, but alas I don't live in her district.

Let me know when it gets there. At least all Canadians have access to reasonable health care, instead of the crisis management they tout in the US. What's that saying about an ounce of prevention?

Yes, and when people need healthcare and they have to wait weeks to get into a doctor it is obviously a great system.

Better than not getting any health care at all, which is what millions of Americans face. Including myself.

[Allanea]

Please restate. You just claimed Nanci Pelosi is too right-wing?

[Treznor]

Yeah, just like Libertarianism hasn't really been tried. When it fails, move the goalposts.

Conservatism is a coalition of various movements. Bush is a neocon. He believes in keeping big govenrment and spending shitloads of money on shit. As such, he's not the same as the Heritage foundation.

Then Nixon was a neocon, and so was Reagan. But history paints them as the heros of conservative ideals. For that matter, Newt Gingrich is one of their number. So, when do you expect US conservatives to clean house? US liberals are at least working on cleaning theirs.

Libertarianism is beyond the scope of this discussion altogether, and no, it hasn't been tried.

It was a comparison. As for having not been tried, I call bullshit.

The report points to then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's approval of such techniques -- including stress positions, removal of clothing, use of phobias (such as fear of dogs), and deprivation of light and auditory stimuli -- in December 2002 for detainees at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

This is not the same as rape, torture by electricity, or being beaten to death. Nor is there mention of Cheney in the CNN article. The Times article only mentions in the blurb that he demanded that Obama revealed the "successes" of these "techniques" (which are not the same as what happened at the AG).

Oh, sure, the widdle-innocent-torturers claim they were just followink ordas. Of course, they weren't, but even if they were it's no excuse.

No one is trying to give them a pass for "just following orders." That is, however, the excuse being propped up for the telecomms, the CIA and all the other people following the Bush administration's orders in direct violation of our nation's highest laws.

The point is that the soldiers at Abu-Graib didn't operate in the dark. The Bush administration knew what they were doing, ordered most of it and wrote off on the rest until it was time to throw them under the bus.

[Treznor]

Please restate. You just claimed Nanci Pelosi is too right-wing?

Pelosi is a politician who claims left-wing ideology while doing more to enable right-wing policy than left-wing. Even with a majority she claims the right-wing has too much power to pass progressive legislation, so she grants their procedural motions and blocks her own Democratic bloc as often as not.

I am not a fan of Speaker Pelosi. She and Reid share responsibility for enabling the continued abuses of the Bush administration from 2006 on.

[Allanea]

It was a comparison. As for having not been tried, I call bullshit.

1. Greenspan's throwing of money and loans at companies was inherently unlibertarian. G-span abandoned libertarianism along with Objectivism decades ago, long before becoming Chairman. There's a reason Ron Paul rails on him so hard.

2. The existance of GSEs was inherently unlibertarian.

3. The expansion of the nation's regulatory complex by thousands of pages every year of the Bush Administration was inherently unlibertarian.

4. Many would argue the existance of the Federal Reserve...

Then Nixon was a neocon, and so was Reagan. But history paints them as the heros of conservative ideals.

Nixon is seen as a hero? By whom? I would argue that Reagan was more of a conservative than Nixon (and his presidency was sort of successful) although of course I would argue he could have been far better. Whether or not the conservatives will ever clean house, I do not know. Of course, I am sure you believe 'cleaning house' means 'becoming so moderate they're also liberal'.

. The Bush administration knew what they were doing, ordered most of it and wrote off on the rest until it was time to throw them under the bus

What was authorized was rather mild [b]as compared to what was actually done. I'd rather be tied in an uncomfortable pose than raped, and I would rather suffer partial sensory deprivation (which is awful) than tortured with electric shock or hanged in the air. Oh, sure they BLAME the Administration, they want to get off easier.

[Treznor]

It was a comparison. As for having not been tried, I call bullshit.

1. Greenspan's throwing of money and loans at companies was inherently unlibertarian. G-span abandoned libertarianism along with Objectivism decades ago, long before becoming Chairman. There's a reason Ron Paul rails on him so hard.

2. The existance of GSEs was inherently unlibertarian.

3. The expansion of the nation's regulatory complex by thousands of pages every year of the Bush Administration was inherently unlibertarian.

4. Many would argue the existance of the Federal Reserve...

Yeah yeah yeah. Moving the goalposts again. I know the drill. But Greenspan's "genius," for which he was hailed for decades, was to remove the fetters from corporate interests, lower interest rates as much as possible to give the economy free reign and give business leaders the lattitude to police themselves. This policy was further reinforced when the GOP took control over the legislature to introduce legislation to repeal regulation, and again when the GOP put their man in the White House and the SEC stopped performing oversight over the financial industry.

Greenspan admits he was "shocked" when the corporate world responded by engaging in a feeding frenzy that was completely unsullied by any sort of moral restraint. A stronger refutation of Libertarian ideals, I cannot imagine. It's as close I care to come to an ideal Libertarian state.

Then Nixon was a neocon, and so was Reagan. But history paints them as the heros of conservative ideals.

Nixon is seen as a hero? By whom? I would argue that Reagan was more of a conservative than Nixon (and his presidency was sort of successful) although of course I would argue he could have been far better. Whether or not the conservatives will ever clean house, I do not know. Of course, I am sure you believe 'cleaning house' means 'becoming so moderate they're also liberal'.

Nixon was seen as a hero by the same people who voted Reagan into office, followed by both Bushes. What, you think the neocon movement is a recent development? Did you miss the bit about Ashcroft and Cheney both being members of the Nixon and Reagan administrations, among others? They are the champions of modern conservatism. That they've been discredited is not because they're isolated bad eggs, but because the ideology they espouse has brought the nation to its knees.

By "cleaning house" I mean removing the folks who aren't "true conservatives." We've got a lot of Democrats mouthing the party line and voting against it, and liberals are organizing to vote them out of office. I see nothing similar being done on the Republican side.

. The Bush administration knew what they were doing, ordered most of it and wrote off on the rest until it was time to throw them under the bus

What was authorized was rather mild [b]as compared to what was actually done. I'd rather be tied in an uncomfortable pose than raped, and I would rather suffer partial sensory deprivation (which is awful) than tortured with electric shock or hanged in the air. Oh, sure they BLAME the Administration, they want to get off easier.

Uh huh. You keep repeating the GOP party line. They've proven the old adage that a lie repeated often enough becomes accepted as the truth. I still call bullshit.

[Allanea]

[quoyte]This policy was further reinforced when the GOP took control over the legislature to introduce legislation to repeal regulation,[/quote]

And yet the Federal Register's listing of regulations expanded by thousands of pages.

Greenspan admits he was "shocked" when the corporate world responded by engaging in a feeding frenzy that was completely unsullied by any sort of moral restraint.

Yes, this is how people respond to welfare. Corporations and individuals alike.

By "cleaning house" I mean removing the folks who aren't "true conservatives.

So who are the true conservatives?

Neocons believe Rumsfeld and Cheney are the paragons of conservatism.

Religious conservatives think it is people like Huckabee.

Classical conservatives will tout Goldwater.

Paleocons will bring out Buchanan.

Libertarians will have... Goldwater, and Ron Paul.

Reagan was a product of a compromsie between these and some other factions.

So, which ones are the true conservatives? You tell me.

[Treznor]

This policy was further reinforced when the GOP took control over the legislature to introduce legislation to repeal regulation,

And yet the Federal Register's listing of regulations expanded by thousands of pages.

Funny. None of them seem to have been enforced. Sounds like lip service to Americans who want to see responsible government, without any follow-through.

Greenspan admits he was "shocked" when the corporate world responded by engaging in a feeding frenzy that was completely unsullied by any sort of moral restraint.

Yes, this is how people respond to welfare. Corporations and individuals alike.

The government wasn't giving corporations welfare so much as free license to do business however they wanted. The "bailouts" were a response to corporate world's policy of short-term profit at the expense of long-term viability. This is the kind of boom-and-bust cycle that the business world has always engaged in when there's no regulation or oversight of their practices, and one of the things the Fed was originally created to suppress.

I don't necessarily agree with the Fed operating as an independent entity, but I don't blame them for trying to regulate our economy. Up until Greenspan, they did a pretty good job at nurturing the nation's prosperity into unprecedented wealth -- wealth that was shared by more of the nation than any time previously, under the policies of the New Deal.

By "cleaning house" I mean removing the folks who aren't "true conservatives.

So who are the true conservatives?

Neocons believe Rumsfeld and Cheney are the paragons of conservatism.

Religious conservatives think it is people like Huckabee.

Classical conservatives will tout Goldwater.

Paleocons will bring out Buchanan.

Libertarians will have... Goldwater, and Ron Paul.

Reagan was a product of a compromsie between these and some other factions.

So, which ones are the true conservatives? You tell me.

Not my job. You're the one telling me Bush isn't a "true conservative." You tell me. Better yet, let the "true conservatives" in America know so they can clean house. Frankly, I've seen nothing to convince me that the ideology as a whole has failed as a method of determining sound policy.

[Allanea]

The "bailouts" were a response to corporate world's policy of short-term profit at the expense of long-term viability.

Do you think the concept of too-big-to-fail was new to this Administration? Ultra-big banks always knew that if tey failed, they'd be propped up. That encourages risk-taking.

[Mirkana]

William Henry Harrison. His achievements as President consist of catching pneumonia and dying. He is best known for running a smear campaign. Worst. President. Ever.

[Treznor]

The "bailouts" were a response to corporate world's policy of short-term profit at the expense of long-term viability.

Do you think the concept of too-big-to-fail was new to this Administration? Ultra-big banks always knew that if tey failed, they'd be propped up. That encourages risk-taking.

The FDIC was meant less as an assurance that the banks wouldn't be allowed to fail and more an assurance to people storing their money in banks that they wouldn't become destitute because the bankers got greedy. We have better models for handling banks that demonstrate an inability to responsibly manage themselves, but those models involve seizing the banks and restructuring them. As "socialism" is considered a bad word in the US, this was not even considered as an option.