Cyprus Dispute

[The Two Jerseys]

Seeing as how the two halves seem to be getting along fine under the current conditions, I say we not poke the hornets nest and keep the status quo.

[Blazedtown]

Kick out the Greeks and the Turks and give the whole Island to Great Britain and then send all of the Mexicans we catch crossing the border to Cyprus. Best comprise I can come up with short of Making it the 51st state.

[Camelza]

Yes.
With what excuse then did you attack the Greek population of Istanbul then?

The people were provoked with a fabricated news that Ataturk's house in Thessaloniki was bombed by Greeks. But I don't use it as a justification for the events, we still commemorate this event with pain every year.

bombing a lifeless building isn't worth mourning ...ousting of families from their place of residence is.

[Demphor]

Because Greece and Turkey get along so well

[Camelza]

With resolutions 198, 194, 193, 192, 187, and 186. Things seemed to be going pretty well, until Turkey invaded in '74 and started a shitstorm all over again. If there was an actually genocide rather then a few terrorist groups then they would have intervened (Not in a timely manner of course, it is the UN) but they would have it there was a mass ethnic cleansing or Genocide

A week before the Turkish intervention, the main responsible of the ethnic violence on the island, Nikos Sampson, took over the control by a coup d'etat. Yea, things were really going well. After Turkish intervention, the ethnic clash ended, the military junta in Greece fell down. It does not seem like a shitstorm at all.

Nikos Sampson even admitted it himself, he told the The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia on Feb. 26, 1981:

"Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS, I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus."

I don't know why people hate Turks that much. This is not a dramatization or something, Turks in Cyprus were obviously attempted to be exterminated in violent ways. Many innocent people were murdered with no hesitation. Why the westerners ignore this ? even if it was made of lie, they could at least say '' we are sorry for what happent to you '' just for kindness, nothing else. But everybody is swooping down Turkey again and blaming Turkey for violence, as always. I'm sure the most people here criticizing Turkey's settlement policies have no problem with Israel's settlement policies over Palestine.

I'm just wasting my breath here, it's no use. Greeks are a part of the Western world and they are christian after all, it would be stupid to expect the people here to approach this issue in an unbiased way. Not criticizing, this is the nature of human body, it always tends to defend its own.

still,the ones that got raped,murdered and kicked out of their lands in the end were Greek-Cypriots not Turkish-Cypriots ...we are the victims not your country's invading army.

[The Ottoman Imperial Union]

A week before the Turkish intervention, the main responsible of the ethnic violence on the island, Nikos Sampson, took over the control by a coup d'etat. Yea, things were really going well. After Turkish intervention, the ethnic clash ended, the military junta in Greece fell down. It does not seem like a shitstorm at all.

Nikos Sampson even admitted it himself, he told the The Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia on Feb. 26, 1981:

"Had Turkey not intervened I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS, I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus."

I don't know why people hate Turks that much. This is not a dramatization or something, Turks in Cyprus were obviously attempted to be exterminated in violent ways. Many innocent people were murdered with no hesitation. Why the westerners ignore this ? even if it was made of lie, they could at least say '' we are sorry for what happent to you '' just for kindness, nothing else. But everybody is swooping down Turkey again and blaming Turkey for violence, as always. I'm sure the most people here criticizing Turkey's settlement policies have no problem with Israel's settlement policies over Palestine.

I'm just wasting my breath here, it's no use. Greeks are a part of the Western world and they are christian after all, it would be stupid to expect the people here to approach this issue in an unbiased way. Not criticizing, this is the nature of human body, it always tends to defend its own.

still,the ones that got raped,murdered and kicked out of their lands in the end were Greek-Cypriots not Turkish-Cypriots ...we are the victims not your country's invading army.

Yes, and the ones who ended up getting bombed, raped, murdered, and pillaged at the end of The Second World War were the Germans, not the Americans or British. I fail to see your point.

[Alassus]

still,the ones that got raped,murdered and kicked out of their lands in the end were Greek-Cypriots not Turkish-Cypriots ...we are the victims not your country's invading army.

Yes, and the ones who ended up getting bombed, raped, murdered, and pillaged at the end of The Second World War were the Germans, not the Americans or British. I fail to see your point.

It's amazing how you are comparing the Germans in WWII with EOKA, a resistance paramilitary group.

[Camelza]

still,the ones that got raped,murdered and kicked out of their lands in the end were Greek-Cypriots not Turkish-Cypriots ...we are the victims not your country's invading army.

Yes, and the ones who ended up getting bombed, raped, murdered, and pillaged at the end of The Second World War were the Germans, not the Americans or British. I fail to see your point.

well,the Germans did kill many people before that happened ...more than their own casualties.

...and your army was just trying to find a reason to invade,they had tried to invade back in '63 and '65 but Makarios had too much political power in Cyprus and two many foreign friends(Tito,Nehru etc).

It's all about money and power mate.

[The Ottoman Imperial Union]

Yes, and the ones who ended up getting bombed, raped, murdered, and pillaged at the end of The Second World War were the Germans, not the Americans or British. I fail to see your point.

It's amazing how you are comparing the Germans in WWII with EOKA, a resistance paramilitary group.

It does not matter; both were prepared to (and started going on) genocidal campaigns. Somebody had to stop them, and the UN, NATO, Greece, or Britain weren't about to do anything. Turkey had, by treaty, the right to intervean on the island to protect the Turkish population and, as no solution has been reached, they must stay there. I could say the Greeks backing up the EOKA movement was all about power and money for Greece... but I don't see anybody going out and calling out the Greek government.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's amazing how you are comparing the Germans in WWII with EOKA, a resistance paramilitary group.

It does not matter; both were prepared to (and started going on) genocidal campaigns. Somebody had to stop them, and the UN, NATO, Greece, or Britain weren't about to do anything. Turkey had, by treaty, the right to intervean on the island to protect the Turkish population and, as no solution has been reached, they must stay there. I could say the Greeks backing up the EOKA movement was all about power and money for Greece... but I don't see anybody going out and calling out the Greek government.

Doubtless you support Armenia straight up annexing eastern turkey to protect the armenians, throwing out all the turks, and saying any resistance is terrorism/genocial hate groups. after all, turkey won't admit they did the whole genocide thing, so it's plausible they'd try again. They don't see it as anything wrong

[Camelza]

It's amazing how you are comparing the Germans in WWII with EOKA, a resistance paramilitary group.

It does not matter; both were prepared to (and started going on) genocidal campaigns. Somebody had to stop them, and the UN, NATO, Greece, or Britain weren't about to do anything. Turkey had, by treaty, the right to intervean on the island to protect the Turkish population and, as no solution has been reached, they must stay there. I could say the Greeks backing up the EOKA movement was all about power and money for Greece... but I don't see anybody going out and calling out the Greek government.

1st,It was an unpopular,unelected & illegitimate fascist,dictatorical regime
2nd,Turkey didn't intervene to save the people ...none cares for the people.
3rd,There was no such thing as a "genocidal campaign",only talks about it,so,none can say what would've happened.
4th,Your government made a genocidal act to prevent one ...makes sense.

[Karma Pyjamas]

The current solution isn't really ideal, but could be worse. International recognition of northern cyprus would be good.

[Alassus]

It does not matter; both were prepared to (and started going on) genocidal campaigns. Somebody had to stop them, and the UN, NATO, Greece, or Britain weren't about to do anything. Turkey had, by treaty, the right to intervean on the island to protect the Turkish population and, as no solution has been reached, they must stay there. I could say the Greeks backing up the EOKA movement was all about power and money for Greece... but I don't see anybody going out and calling out the Greek government.

1st,It was an unpopular,unelected & illegitimate fascist,dictatorical regime
2nd,Turkey didn't intervene to save the people ...none cares for the people.
3rd,There was no such thing as a "genocidal campaign",only talks about it,so,none can say what would've happened.
4th,Your government made a genocidal act to prevent one ...makes sense.

This

[New New Capston]

Nature reserve. Kick all the people out and have it administered by the Andorrans.

Ahh, no. The Andorrans are near. The maori are better.

[The Ottoman Imperial Union]

It does not matter; both were prepared to (and started going on) genocidal campaigns. Somebody had to stop them, and the UN, NATO, Greece, or Britain weren't about to do anything. Turkey had, by treaty, the right to intervean on the island to protect the Turkish population and, as no solution has been reached, they must stay there. I could say the Greeks backing up the EOKA movement was all about power and money for Greece... but I don't see anybody going out and calling out the Greek government.

Doubtless you support Armenia straight up annexing eastern turkey to protect the armenians, throwing out all the turks, and saying any resistance is terrorism/genocial hate groups. after all, turkey won't admit they did the whole genocide thing, so it's plausible they'd try again. They don't see it as anything wrong

First off, I would like to establish something; I'm not Turkish. That was brought up previously as "my army"; it is not.

And no, I am not; Actually, I do not beleive the Armenian "genocide" ever occurred, or was attempted. They were forcibly relocated, yes, for national security purposes; the American government did the same thing in The Second World War, and the Brits dissolved their Facist partes as I recall, but deaths by migration can not be called genocide. Maybe if the Armenians weren't actively assisting the Russian enemy, the Ottoman government wouldn't have felt the need to move them.

And no, I do not support that; now, if the Turks in Armenia were to suddenly declare they were going to work around the clock to annex Armeania back into Turkey, attacked local embassies, bussiesses, ect, and swore to destroy all the Armenians, then Russia comes in and establishes a safe zone for Aremanians and moves the Turks out for reasons of security, I honestly wouldn't complain if Russia had diplomatic pretext for doing so.

[Ostroeuropa]

Doubtless you support Armenia straight up annexing eastern turkey to protect the armenians, throwing out all the turks, and saying any resistance is terrorism/genocial hate groups. after all, turkey won't admit they did the whole genocide thing, so it's plausible they'd try again. They don't see it as anything wrong

First off, I would like to establish something; I'm not Turkish. That was brought up previously as "my army"; it is not.

And no, I am not; Actually, I do not beleive the Armenian "genocide" ever occurred, or was attempted. They were forcibly relocated, yes, for national security purposes; the American government did the same thing in The Second World War, and the Brits dissolved their Facist partes as I recall, but deaths by migration can not be called genocide. Maybe if the Armenians weren't actively assisting the Russian enemy, the Ottoman government wouldn't have felt the need to move them.

And no, I do not support that; now, if the Turks in Armenia were to suddenly declare they were going to work around the clock to annex Armeania back into Turkey, attacked local embassies, bussiesses, ect, and swore to destroy all the Armenians, then Russia comes in and establishes a safe zone for Aremanians and moves the Turks out for reasons of security, I honestly wouldn't complain if Russia had diplomatic pretext for doing so.

I don't even need to reply to this. You've essentially disqualified yourself from being taken seriously on issues relating to turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
600,000 - 1,800,000 deaths do not occur from "Migrations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Genocide
270,000 - 750,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
750,000 - 900,000

The Americans moved the Japanese into camps, and that was wrong. But there wasn't an attempt to kill everybody, as evidenced by the practically non-existant death toll.

The british disbanded the fascist parties, they didn't murder all the fascists.


Do you think an entire population of people can be secretly working for the russians? SERIOUSLY?
It's as insane as the people who propose that the jews are all secretly controlling the banks etc

[Dilange]

There should be one united Cyprus. The Northern Cyprus is only recognized by Turkey because Turkey has its puppet government in it. Cyprus should just be its own state.

[The Ottoman Imperial Union]

It does not matter; both were prepared to (and started going on) genocidal campaigns. Somebody had to stop them, and the UN, NATO, Greece, or Britain weren't about to do anything. Turkey had, by treaty, the right to intervean on the island to protect the Turkish population and, as no solution has been reached, they must stay there. I could say the Greeks backing up the EOKA movement was all about power and money for Greece... but I don't see anybody going out and calling out the Greek government.

1st,It was an unpopular,unelected & illegitimate fascist,dictatorical regime
2nd,Turkey didn't intervene to save the people ...none cares for the people.
3rd,There was no such thing as a "genocidal campaign",only talks about it,so,none can say what would've happened.
4th,Your government made a genocidal act to prevent one ...makes sense.

1. Again, the difference is immaterial; they were the government, and they officially sanctioned the actions.
2. Really? How can you say? I guess the US only went into France because it wanted French consumers for their goods. People have the ability to care, particularly when its about area that was part of your country for quite a long time.
3. Oh yes, because waiting until the genocide actually happens is SUCH a good idea. If the leaders of the opposing faction make a serious threat of genocide on people of your ethnicity, I'm sure your reaction is "wait and see." Like maybe if the president of Iran said he would kill every Caucasian in his borders... ya, I'm sure the US would stand for that.
4. You do realize the real military action amounted to, ultimately, three days right? Until a safe line could be drawn and a cease-fire negotiated? Yes, Greek Cypriots died, and a number were reloctated; but that's what happens in war. Innocent people suffered on both sides, the pity cards cancel out, and quite frankly, did the Turks ever say "we're going to wipe out the Greeks?" NO. They just wanted to have a spot were they could be left in peace.

[East Ormania]

The current solution isn't really ideal, but could be worse. International recognition of northern cyprus would be good.

Not all countries would recognize Northern Cyprus. The more peaceful ones for instance.

[Ircona]

I'm for a two-state solution. In a perfect world, I'd hope for a reunification of some sort but that just isn't going to happen anytime soon. Though to be honest, I don't think the Greeks are going to allow a two-state solution either.

[Camelza]

1st,It was an unpopular,unelected & illegitimate fascist,dictatorical regime
2nd,Turkey didn't intervene to save the people ...none cares for the people.
3rd,There was no such thing as a "genocidal campaign",only talks about it,so,none can say what would've happened.
4th,Your government made a genocidal act to prevent one ...makes sense.

1. Again, the difference is immaterial; they were the government, and they officially sanctioned the actions.
2. Really? How can you say? I guess the US only went into France because it wanted French consumers for their goods. People have the ability to care, particularly when its about area that was part of your country for quite a long time.
3. Oh yes, because waiting until the genocide actually happens is SUCH a good idea. If the leaders of the opposing faction make a serious threat of genocide on people of your ethnicity, I'm sure your reaction is "wait and see." Like maybe if the president of Iran said he would kill every Caucasian in his borders... ya, I'm sure the US would stand for that.
4. You do realize the real military action amounted to, ultimately, three days right? Until a safe line could be drawn and a cease-fire negotiated? Yes, Greek Cypriots died, and a number were reloctated; but that's what happens in war. Innocent people suffered on both sides, the pity cards cancel out, and quite frankly, did the Turks ever say "we're going to wipe out the Greeks?" NO. They just wanted to have a spot were they could be left in peace.

1st, Actually,no,they were made unofficialy as Ioannidis was the unofficial leader of Greece ruling the land without holding any official position other than his military rank which was not even a high one ..he was a goddamn brigadier.
2nd, Politics don't work that way,it's only about money and power deal with it.
3rd, Again politics don't work like that and Ahmadinejad isn't against Caucasians,he's against Iranians.
4th, Do Turkish-Cypriots,Armenian-Cypriots & Greek Cypriots live,work & take part in politics in Free Cyprus? of course they do!
now,please do tell me,is there even a single Greek-Cypriot in the Occupied part?are there Greek-speaking schools or Greek political parties? why? Is it because you kicked us out while killing and raping a big number of our kin maybe,eh?

[Camelza]

I'm for a two-state solution. In a perfect world, I'd hope for a reunification of some sort but that just isn't going to happen anytime soon. Though to be honest, I don't think the Greeks are going to allow a two-state solution either.

because it's silly,we are the 78% of the island's population and we only have 50% of the island currently,tell me why the minority should get more than it deserves?
I believe in Reunification and a sytem similar to Switzerland's which is neither illogical or impossible ,it's actually Makarios' plan.

[Wind in the Willows]

Let the people that live there decide.

[Kemalist]

I'm for a two-state solution. In a perfect world, I'd hope for a reunification of some sort but that just isn't going to happen anytime soon. Though to be honest, I don't think the Greeks are going to allow a two-state solution either.

because it's silly,we are the 78% of the island's population and we only have 50% of the island currently,tell me why the minority should get more than it deserves?
I believe in Reunification and a sytem similar to Switzerland's which is neither illogical or impossible ,it's actually Makarios' plan.

Under the old system which Turkey, Greece, Cyprus and UK agreed on, you were granted much more rights than Turks. But, even it did not suffice you, and you attempted to exterminate the Turkish minority for the sake of the ENOSIS plan. So, this grasping attitude cost you too much, and you've even lost what you had in your keeping. Doesn't it remind you of the beginning of the 1920s ? same covetousness, same failure. History always repeats, doesn't it ?

So, you have no right to complain about the current situation. You can not bring the old good times for you back, you'll have to deal with the fact that there is now a Turkish Cypriot majority in the Northern part, who want to govern their own country. Whether you like it or not, it's not likely for Greece, especially while under such a miserable situation, to obstruct that in the near future.

[The Ottoman Imperial Union]

First off, I would like to establish something; I'm not Turkish. That was brought up previously as "my army"; it is not.

And no, I am not; Actually, I do not beleive the Armenian "genocide" ever occurred, or was attempted. They were forcibly relocated, yes, for national security purposes; the American government did the same thing in The Second World War, and the Brits dissolved their Facist partes as I recall, but deaths by migration can not be called genocide. Maybe if the Armenians weren't actively assisting the Russian enemy, the Ottoman government wouldn't have felt the need to move them.

And no, I do not support that; now, if the Turks in Armenia were to suddenly declare they were going to work around the clock to annex Armeania back into Turkey, attacked local embassies, bussiesses, ect, and swore to destroy all the Armenians, then Russia comes in and establishes a safe zone for Aremanians and moves the Turks out for reasons of security, I honestly wouldn't complain if Russia had diplomatic pretext for doing so.

I don't even need to reply to this. You've essentially disqualified yourself from being taken seriously on issues relating to turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
600,000 - 1,800,000 deaths do not occur from "Migrations."
The Americans moved the Japanese into camps, and that was wrong. But there wasn't an attempt to kill everybody, as evidenced by the practically non-existant death toll.

The british disbanded the fascist parties, they didn't murder all the fascists.


Do you think an entire population of people can be secretly working for the russians? SERIOUSLY?
It's as insane as the people who propose that the jews are all secretly controlling the banks etc

You do realize that there a dozens of reasons why all this stuff could have happened, right?

One, of course the Armenians sided with the Russians! Heck, the Russians mobalized entire units of them!

Secondly, part of it arose from a misunderstanding in the Ottoman government. Considering that the Ottoman Armenians were OPENLY and ACTIVELY running a congress of union with Russian Armenians, the Russians actively speaking our for their independence, had armed themselves, and were all together uncooperative, that creates a very, very heavy weight against any proposal that they were innocent. Quite frankly, considering that was the key defensive position between the Ottomans and Russians, it became vital to national security that the area not to be filled with what was starting to look like rebellion waiting to happen. Thus, the Ottomans needed a way to get them out; and quickly. A lack of preparation, as well as the generally poor state of Ottoman Infrastructure, forcing to to become a force march of sorts, likely contributed to the deaths.

On the lack of supplies note; it is well known that the Ottomans during the war barely had enough to keep their own armed forces running. Heck, they routinely ran out of bullets during major battles, had their major food production centers for the region (Mesopotamia) ravanged by Arab, British, and Russian influences, and suffered from dissolution of trade with a number of their neighbors. Perhaps some officers acted improperly during the campaigns. However, there are no Ottoman records dictating that this existed; only words from Armenians. No discovered "death camps", no liberation; just some displaced Armanains whom were the victeams of a government desperate to get them away from the Russian border and unable to devout resources to bringing their things.

Next, please locate any official Ottoman orders which brought any mention of genocide about.

Also, you might note the Armenians were not particularly co-operative in the efforts of the war. They did not respond to conscription on several occasions, actively fought away Turkish military presence and, in a number of cases, refused to move. An unruly populace would obviously require a stricter system to keep them under control and, with the already strict Ottoman system, perhaps it was taken a bit too far. However, it is not as if mobilizing the population for labor in times of war is a crime; everybody does it. Most nations, however, will have their citizens listen; the Ottoman Armenians did not, in some cases, and thus had to be forced to. If you ignore a draft in pretty much any civilized nation, you're thrown in prision where, SURPRISE! They make you work.

Also, I find the math quite amusing. By Ottoman numberings, there existed roughly 1.2 million Armenians in the Empire before this so-called Massicure took place. However, according to international statistics, less then 10 years later there were over 800,000 Armenian Refugees, and about 300,000 Armenians who stayed in Turkey. Thus, considering only minor population growth, mathematically the death toll could not have exceeded 100 thousand or , at best, 200 thousan; far below any of the "estimates" the few nations who officially recognize the "genocide" presented. Some of them died in war, of course, and others may have died on the march; it hardly seems like their was any genocide going on.

In other words, I feel as if I am prepared to defend my position. Turkey has offered to allow for a UN investigation on the accuracy of this. There just isen't enough substance to justify the claim.