European Union wins Nobel Peace Prize

[Nazis in Space]

Given the 40- 50% results in European Parliament elections (Average. Varies by country from over 20 to over 90%) are in pretty much the same ballpark, yeah...

Actually, and here's the most hilarious part, the 90% turnout in those countries is still rather bad. Why? Because it's actually a criminal offence to not show up and vote if you're eligible to vote. That means 10% of those people actually violated the law and risked prosecution so they didn't have to vote.

It isn't, because their results in national elections are about the same.

Growth rate... Doesn't look much better. There's more European top growth countries, chiefly on account of still being dirt poor and thus not capable of qualifying for the Euro, but Luxembourg, Austria, Germany, the Czech Republic and France sure don't have a problem growing above-average, something that can't exactly be said for the glorious, Euro-free United Kingdom.

Those are old figures. Looking at the period between 1980 and 2012, and just look for the official figures by the European Union itself rather than a messy Wikipedia article, there are two highly-visible things. Firstly, growth rate has declined with every major measure the European Union introduced. Secondly, current growth rates (don't look at the predicted ones, because they're generally at least double of what they'll turn out to be) are actually, and have been under normal circumstances for over a decade, much higher in non-eurozone and non-EU countries. I once read an article about economic growth in the United States, and then it hit me. What they call sluggish annual growth is better than what we've done in the past five years.

You lie again. The US doesn't exactly look great atm.

Economic growth is of course much better in per capita terms among third world countries, what with having little and improving on it - which is precisely why they do so well in GDP growth rates. It's easy to improve from little. Which is why they're an invalid comparison. The US is a valid one, but of course, isn't any more impressive than the EU. Japan, too, but it's doing worse. Canada and Australia are okay as well.

[Maineiacs]

OK, I'll likely regret asking, but I'm going to anyway: who did deserve the prize?

Israel and Iran for not starting WW3

Yet.

[Delanshar]

We're talking parliamentary elections, remember? Hence averaging between presidential- and only senate/ congress elections.

Right of course
With Europe you can only talk about the parliamentary election
Because for president of the EU commission (ie: the part w actual power) the people can't even vote at all

[Nazis in Space]

We're talking parliamentary elections, remember? Hence averaging between presidential- and only senate/ congress elections.

I'm also afraid that you're just a little bit dumb when you think a country 'Should be allowed to leave the EU'. Not because that's a bad idea, quite the opposite.

But because they're all free to leave anytime they wish in the first place. What with the EU not being a dictatorship enforcing membership.

Shocking, I know.

Right of course
With Europe you can only talk about the parliamentary election

Because for president of the EU commission (ie: the part w actual power) the people can't even vote at all

They do so indirectly, what with voting in the heads of government that then vote for the president of the EU commission. Precisely the same process as a parliament electing the head of government after an election, which is how it's done in 80- or 90% of the EU.

That's democratic legitimation right there.

[Quintium]

You lie again. The US doesn't exactly look great atm.

Your 'at the moment' is at least three financial quarters ago, and possibly more. My 'at the moment' is much more recent, and from European Union sources.

http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMARK_DS-055482_QID_-51491538_UID_-3F171EB0&layout=TIME,C,X,0;GEO,L,Y,0;UNIT,L,Z,0;INDIC_NA,L,Z,1;INDICATORS,C,Z,2;&zSelection=DS-055482UNIT,PCH_PRE;DS-055482INDIC_NA,B1GM;DS-055482INDICATORS,OBS_FLAG;&rankName1=TIME_1_0_0_0&rankName2=INDIC-NA_1_2_-1_2&rankName3=INDICATORS_1_2_-1_2&rankName4=UNIT_1_2_-1_2&rankName5=GEO_1_2_0_1&pprRK=FIRST&pprSO=PROTOCOL&ppcRK=FIRST&ppcSO=ASC&sortC=ASC_-1_FIRST&rStp=&cStp=&rDCh=&cDCh=&rDM=true&cDM=true&footnes=false&empty=false&wai=false&time_mode=NONE&lang=EN&cfo=%23%23%23%2C%23%23%23.%23%23%23

Hopefully, that link works. Comparing them, the United States had a higher growth rate than the eurozone for 13 of the past 16 years. It's also interesting to note that Iceland, which kept itself out of the European Union, has a solid growth rate while the European Union is at stagnation and the eurozone is on the verge of a recession now. The same is true for Switzerland and Norway, but I figured you probably expected that.

[New Rogernomics]

The Peace prize gets awarded to warmongers and scumbags of all types, a Nobel Peace Prize is about as useful as a broken toaster.

[Delanshar]

Right of course
With Europe you can only talk about the parliamentary election

Because for president of the EU commission (ie: the part w actual power) the people can't even vote at all

They do so indirectly, what with voting in the heads of government that then vote for the president of the EU commission. Precisely the same process as a parliament electing the head of government after an election, which is how it's done in 80- or 90% of the EU.

That's democratic legitimation right there.

No it's not the same. In a parliamentary system as you describe, there is a general election in one country and the winning party(s) forms the government based on what the people want. With the European Union, You have the European Council made up of various Heads of State that appoints the President (who in this case is the hugely democratic Jose Barroso). These Heads of State aren't elected at the same time so there is no general consensus amongst the public about what direction they want to go. It's all up to the elites.

And to those who say the EU is such a champion of democracy
Read this: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100056661/the-eu-is-an-antidote-to-democratic-governments-argues-president-barroso/

[Ifreann]

The Peace prize gets awarded to warmongers and scumbags of all types, a Nobel Peace Prize is about as useful as a broken toaster.

You'd be surprised what can be accomplished with broken toasters.

[Nazis in Space]

You lie again. The US doesn't exactly look great atm.

Your 'at the moment' is at least three financial quarters ago, and possibly more. My 'at the moment' is much more recent, and from European Union sources.

http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?query=BOOKMARK_DS-055482_QID_-51491538_UID_-3F171EB0&layout=TIME,C,X,0;GEO,L,Y,0;UNIT,L,Z,0;INDIC_NA,L,Z,1;INDICATORS,C,Z,2;&zSelection=DS-055482UNIT,PCH_PRE;DS-055482INDIC_NA,B1GM;DS-055482INDICATORS,OBS_FLAG;&rankName1=TIME_1_0_0_0&rankName2=INDIC-NA_1_2_-1_2&rankName3=INDICATORS_1_2_-1_2&rankName4=UNIT_1_2_-1_2&rankName5=GEO_1_2_0_1&pprRK=FIRST&pprSO=PROTOCOL&ppcRK=FIRST&ppcSO=ASC&sortC=ASC_-1_FIRST&rStp=&cStp=&rDCh=&cDCh=&rDM=true&cDM=true&footnes=false&empty=false&wai=false&time_mode=NONE&lang=EN&cfo=%23%23%23%2C%23%23%23.%23%23%23

Hopefully, that link works. Comparing them, the United States had a higher growth rate than the eurozone for 13 of the past 16 years. It's also interesting to note that Iceland, which kept itself out of the European Union, has a solid growth rate while the European Union is at stagnation and the eurozone is on the verge of a recession now. The same is true for Switzerland and Norway, but I figured you probably expected that.

It doesn't, but fortunately, I'm capable of getting to it, anyway.

loling @ iceland. I suggest you look at the numbers again. You'll notice a '-' in front of some of the numbers. Also random periods of near-zero growth. That's not exactly 'Solid growth', that's 'Wildly swinging economic cycles'. You may have heard about the giant crash they had a while ago...

Norway, as an oil country, managed to do worse than the EU at large entirely too often. Switzerland has had substantial issues in the late 90s and early 2000s.

The US have indeed, on average, been doing a little better than the EU - it's population is growing rather faster than the EUs, which naturally, affects GDP as well (More people -> More work -> More GDP). The difference in GDP growth per capita is rather smaller.

[The Corparation]

I thought the prizes were supposed to go to people or teams of people. A dysfunctional international agreement isn't exactly a person or team effort. Its more of a mob.

The Peace prize gets awarded to warmongers and scumbags of all types, a Nobel Peace Prize is about as useful as a broken toaster.

Not true. You can use a broken toaster for a great variety of tasks, ranging from Bookend to improvised zombie electrocution device.

[Ifreann]

I thought the prizes were supposed to go to people or teams of people. A dysfunctional international agreement isn't exactly a person or team effort. Its more of a mob.

Mobs are teams of people.

[Nazis in Space]

They do so indirectly, what with voting in the heads of government that then vote for the president of the EU commission. Precisely the same process as a parliament electing the head of government after an election, which is how it's done in 80- or 90% of the EU.

That's democratic legitimation right there.

No it's not the same. In a parliamentary system as you describe, there is a general election in one country and the winning party(s) forms the government based on what the people want. With the European Union, You have the European Council made up of various Heads of State that appoints the President (who in this case is the hugely democratic Jose Barroso). These Heads of Stae aren't elected at the same time so there is no general consensus amongst the public about what direction they want to go. It's all up to the elites.

It's true that the democratic process is somewhat diluted there (Though with the usual four-year periods between elections, not actually that much), but saying that it isn't democratic at all is just sily. The governments don't randomly lose their mandates halfway to the next election. It could be better though, I agree.

And to those who say the EU is such a champion of democracy
Read this: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100056661/the-eu-is-an-antidote-to-democratic-governments-argues-president-barroso/

A blog. By a Tory. Published by a tory paper.

Looks legit.

[Nazis in Space]

I thought the prizes were supposed to go to people or teams of people. A dysfunctional international agreement isn't exactly a person or team effort. Its more of a mob.

The first time an organisation received the prize was in 1904.

[New Rogernomics]

I thought the prizes were supposed to go to people or teams of people. A dysfunctional international agreement isn't exactly a person or team effort. Its more of a mob.

The Peace prize gets awarded to warmongers and scumbags of all types, a Nobel Peace Prize is about as useful as a broken toaster.

Not true. You can use a broken toaster for a great variety of tasks, ranging from Bookend to improvised zombie electrocution device.

Yeah, you have me on that one. That would be an insult to broken toasters.

[Delanshar]

A blog. By a Tory. Published by a tory paper.

Looks legit.

The Conservatives have been working hard to bring the UK back from the mess that Labor put it in, so I wouldn't discount their opinion so quickly. Besides he was quoting Barroso and quite frankly those words speak for themselves.

Doesn't it trouble you that the President of the EU Commission. The same EU that just won the peace prize for "Promoting peace, human rights and democracy" basically came out and said "People are too stupid to be trusted with real power, their choices must be constrained by a group of bureaucrats" (a group which he, conveniently, is a member of).

[Quintium]

loling @ iceland. I suggest you look at the numbers again. You'll notice a '-' in front of some of the numbers. Also random periods of near-zero growth. That's not exactly 'Solid growth', that's 'Wildly swinging economic cycles'. You may have heard about the giant crash they had a while ago...

Norway, as an oil country, managed to do worse than the EU at large entirely too often. Switzerland has had substantial issues in the late 90s and early 2000s.

It seems you do not actually have the same information I have.
The information I have is this, and I regret having to type this out.

GDP, percentage change annually.

2002:
European Union 1.3%
Eurozone 0.9%
United States: 1.8%
Iceland: 0.1%

2003:
European Union: 1.5%
Eurozone: 0.7%
United States: 2.5%
Iceland: 2.4%

2004:
European Union: 2.5%
Eurozone: 2.2%
United States: 3.5%
Iceland: 7.8%

This was the year Dutch and French voters stuck it to the European Union in a referendum.

2005:
European Union 2.1%
Eurozone: 1.7%
United States: 3.1%
Iceland: 7.2%

2006:
European Union: 3.3%
Eurozone: 3.2%
United States: 2.7%
Iceland: 1.9%

This was the finest moment for the European Union. As concerns mounted about the global economic situation, leaders decided to keep spending and borrowing like there's no tomorrow. Right before 2008 hit, they even managed to pass the old European Constitution's transfer of sovereignty under a different name.

2007:
European Union: 3.2%
Eurozone: 3%
United States: 1.9%
Iceland: 6%

Suddenly, the game is up. We all panic.

2008:
European Union: 0.3%
Eurozone: 0.4%
Iceland: 1.2%
United States: -0.3%

This is when the real problems start. Since the European Union hasn't been carrying out responsible fiscal policies in over a decade, the house of cards collapses much more for the eurozone now than it does for the United States. They quite nearly bankrupt Iceland also, but Iceland soon recovers.

2009:
European Union: -4.3%
Eurozone: -4.4%
United States: -3.1%
Iceland: -6.6%

A false moment of hope. Even with impossible and still-mounting debts and a loss of trust in Southern Europe by the financial markets, they think the worst is over.

2010:
European Union: 2.1%
Eurozone: 2%
United States: 2.4%
Iceland: -4%

Iceland picks up steam again. At the same time, investors realise that Southern Europe isn't going well and that promises made by the European Union and the ECB are generally void within a few weeks. Panic erupts properly.

2011:
European Union: 1.5%
Eurozone: 1.4%
United States: 1.8%
Iceland: 2.6%

It's getting real, and predictions from people with any credibility left are grim.

2012:
European Union: 0%
Eurozone: -0.3%
United States: 2%
Iceland: 2.1%

Now, I won't take into account their predictions for the future yet. The European Commission predicts growth, but it hasn't predicted anywhere near realistically in the past. As details for the final quarter have yet to be released, you may also safely assume that 2012 is going to be a tad bit worse for the European Union and for the eurozone than claimed here, claims they've based on some actual figures for previous months and a bit of speculation for the last few months, and they've only once predicted something worse than the actual situation.

Doesn't it trouble you that the President of the EU Commission. The same EU that just won the peace prize for "Promoting peace, human rights and democracy" basically came out and said "People are too stupid to be trusted with real power, their choices must be constrained by a group of bureaucrats" (a group which he, conveniently, is a member of).

I remember Guy Verhofstadt saying, on two separate accounts, that "the European Union should not listen to what the people say - we need to tell them what to say, change public opinion!" José Manuel Barroso said national flags were 'flags of xenophobia' and called everyone who opposed further 'European integration' (read: transfer of sovereignty to the exact same bureaucrats who got us into this mess in the first place) 'populists and nationalists' (read: a rather large majority of the population).

[Quintium]

I'll be off to bed now. Three in the morning, just glad it's saturday tomorrow.
Goodnight, may Baphomet be with you and I hope to answer more insults and questions about my character tomorrow.

[Antrema]

I'll be off to bed now. Three in the morning, just glad it's saturday tomorrow.
Goodnight, may Baphomet be with you and I hope to answer more insults and questions about my character tomorrow.

HAHA

[Kubrath]

Nobel must be speeding up the Earth from rolling in his grave by now, knowing what his prizes have become. Apparently, the EU got it for six years worth the peacemaking, unifying, spreading of democracy and prosperity throughout the region. How much of what's on paper and what's actually been done is arguable. It seems though as the EU has forgotten what it actually formed for in the first place.

[Scholencia]

Greece, very effectively, drove itself into a financial crisis. The EU has been very harsh in its demands for fiscal responsibility in Greece ever since, but given that the rest of the EU has to pay for greek ineptity that was to be expected.

To be honest the EU's at fault for letting Greece join the Euro despite knowing it barely met the requirements.

When Greece joined the EU back then in 80ies the European Comission was against Greece entering the EU.

[Ifreann]

Nobel must be speeding up the Earth from rolling in his grave by now, knowing what his prizes have become. Apparently, the EU got it for six years worth the peacemaking, unifying, spreading of democracy and prosperity throughout the region. How much of what's on paper and what's actually been done is arguable. It seems though as the EU has forgotten what it actually formed for in the first place.

To troll Nigel Farage? I doubt they've forgotten that, it's printed on all the Euro banknotes.

[AiliailiA]

Well that's just plain silly.

About the only good thing I can say about the Peace Prize is that the frequent controversies attract attention to the science prizes. Not that they're worth much either, rewarding people who already have all they could want from their career. The money would be better spent on scholarships.

[AiliailiA]

loling @ iceland. I suggest you look at the numbers again. You'll notice a '-' in front of some of the numbers. Also random periods of near-zero growth. That's not exactly 'Solid growth', that's 'Wildly swinging economic cycles'. You may have heard about the giant crash they had a while ago...

Norway, as an oil country, managed to do worse than the EU at large entirely too often. Switzerland has had substantial issues in the late 90s and early 2000s.

It seems you do not actually have the same information I have.
The information I have is this, and I regret having to type this out.

GDP, percentage change annually.

2002:
European Union 1.3%
Eurozone 0.9%
United States: 1.8%
Iceland: 0.1%

2003:
European Union: 1.5%
Eurozone: 0.7%
United States: 2.5%
Iceland: 2.4%

2004:
European Union: 2.5%
Eurozone: 2.2%
United States: 3.5%
Iceland: 7.8%

This was the year Dutch and French voters stuck it to the European Union in a referendum.

2005:
European Union 2.1%
Eurozone: 1.7%
United States: 3.1%
Iceland: 7.2%

2006:
European Union: 3.3%
Eurozone: 3.2%
United States: 2.7%
Iceland: 1.9%

This was the finest moment for the European Union. As concerns mounted about the global economic situation, leaders decided to keep spending and borrowing like there's no tomorrow. Right before 2008 hit, they even managed to pass the old European Constitution's transfer of sovereignty under a different name.

2007:
European Union: 3.2%
Eurozone: 3%
United States: 1.9%
Iceland: 6%

Suddenly, the game is up. We all panic.

2008:
European Union: 0.3%
Eurozone: 0.4%
Iceland: 1.2%
United States: -0.3%

This is when the real problems start. Since the European Union hasn't been carrying out responsible fiscal policies in over a decade, the house of cards collapses much more for the eurozone now than it does for the United States. They quite nearly bankrupt Iceland also, but Iceland soon recovers.

2009:
European Union: -4.3%
Eurozone: -4.4%
United States: -3.1%
Iceland: -6.6%

A false moment of hope. Even with impossible and still-mounting debts and a loss of trust in Southern Europe by the financial markets, they think the worst is over.

2010:
European Union: 2.1%
Eurozone: 2%
United States: 2.4%
Iceland: -4%

Iceland picks up steam again. At the same time, investors realise that Southern Europe isn't going well and that promises made by the European Union and the ECB are generally void within a few weeks. Panic erupts properly.

2011:
European Union: 1.5%
Eurozone: 1.4%
United States: 1.8%
Iceland: 2.6%

It's getting real, and predictions from people with any credibility left are grim.

2012:
European Union: 0%
Eurozone: -0.3%
United States: 2%
Iceland: 2.1%

Interesting narrative, though you have a butt-load of hindsight.

Why not just post a graph?

Now, I won't take into account their predictions for the future yet. The European Commission predicts growth, but it hasn't predicted anywhere near realistically in the past. As details for the final quarter have yet to be released, you may also safely assume that 2012 is going to be a tad bit worse for the European Union and for the eurozone than claimed here, claims they've based on some actual figures for previous months and a bit of speculation for the last few months, and they've only once predicted something worse than the actual situation.

That would be better with a graph too.

[L Ron Cupboard]

OK, I'll likely regret asking, but I'm going to anyway: who did deserve the prize?

I bet the Illuminatti have high hopes.

[Quintium]

Interesting narrative, though you have a butt-load of hindsight.

Of course I do - that's what people tend to have when looking at events past. But speaking of hindsight, here's a real eye-opener. A compilation of remarks by Nigel Farage in European Parliament, with the time before they turned out to be correct added. Interestingly, this man has been a lot more accurate at predicting the outcome of measures and events in this crisis than any of the European Commissioners, economics and politicians involved with these bailouts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoROJ07evug - The intro animation is a bit annoying, but it gets the point across.

Why not just post a graph?

Because any graph containing relevant information would be well over 900 pixels wide, and this forum does not even allow that under a spoiler.
A direct link I posted earlier seems to work only for me, since I had to edit the parameters in order to make a clear and simple comparison.