Fascist rise in europe

[Zaras]

I believe there is no contradiction between making a detailed argument which uses facts and theory and cursing like a sailor and sarcastically insulting fascists. In fact, I like doing all three at once!

Must be a bloody disappointment, then, that you fail completely at using facts.

Sometimes theory and swearing is enough for me.

[Zaras]

Yes. Especially if it squashes sovereignity and democracy,

Yeah, sure, the EU has destroyed democracy around Europe when it's actually the only thing so far that's in the way of the crazy government in Hungary passing a blatantly shit reform that would actually abolish democracy.

and imposes poverty on its smaller members through puppet Eurocrats.

Your Daily Mail is showing, please get it under control. Also, the EU helps countries reduce their poverty level, so please get it right.

Brainwashing it's populace until they become rabid multiculturalists who think anyone who disagrees should be sent to reeducation camps (ie: people like you)... well thats just a bonus.

An entire continent of rabid multiculturalists who hate bigotry with the intensity of a thousand suns and fight it at every turn? Sounds like a utopia.

[Zaras]

It's an outdated notion anyway.

Yeah, it's so outdated and thats why it's rising throughout Europe.

That's just Europeans being silly. No different from Californians voting for Prop. 13 and 8 without thinking about the consequences.

[Zaras]

Your Daily Mail is showing, please get it under control. Also, the EU helps countries reduce their poverty level, so please get it right.

I agree with everything else you say but the EU in economic matters cares mostly for the bankers and multinational company owners,not the people.

Yes, but there's a different thread for the EU's fuckups.

The EU definitely needs to stop doing shit like the CAP and the blatantly biased ECB. But it's not a surprise that the EU would be biased towards corporations and bankers instead of people. It's something we see at most levels of the state as a trend since the 1980s.

Even with its bias, I can't deny that its funds have helped the new Eastern European member countries. 'specially since they come with certain procedures to prevent them from being stolen.

[Zaras]

No. We've tried everything throughout Europe, from handling them in inhumane ways in the south and east to pampering them and paying for everything they needed or wanted in the north. We even tried racist employment policies to get more non-western immigrants in well-paid jobs. Still didn't change the undeniable fact that new generations are doing worse, not better, than old generations.

And whose fault is that?

Where did I say that?

You implied it a few minutes ago when you brought up Muslims in the first place.

Yes. They hate the west because they're trapped in their own group's ultraconservative morals while being placed in a land of plenty, that's the explanation given by our intelligence services and sociologists, who managed to infiltrate the most violently-fundamentalist groups.

Now ask those same guys how best to break those morals.

First suggestion: read up on what a strawman actually is, because I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Second suggestion: not all of them, but many of them do actually have cultures that endorse, when mixed into our society, things that are crimes here.

Suggestion: culture isn't the only thing that leads to crime.

There are only a few private schools in this entire country, and they're usually only for diplomats' children.
They all go to public school. But public school has absolutely no value to them since it is not related to their own cultural and religious group.

Private schooling would be worse, it'd just lock them in their biases.

Get back to that dictionary. Looked up the word strawman already? Good boy.

I'm not your fucking dog. Don't call me "boy".

[Zaras]

1: Viktor Orban's government was democratically elected by a landslide.

That says bad things about Hungarian voters.

2: The EU helps reduce poverty? Yeah go tell that to Greece, or Spain, or Portugal...

Or Poland, or Slovenia, or all of the Eastern European members who benefit from the adjustment funds.

I'm sorry but if you can't handle somebody else's opinion without shunning them, calling them racist and in general going on childish rants then your a bigot too.

If you keep saying it, that doesn't make it any more true. I can handle loathsome opinions with disdain. I don't have to respect them.

So if utopia for you means blatant hypocrisy and childish tantrums at every turn, leave me out of it.

I'm not stupid enough to believe that people should be forced to join utopias. That's kind of the point of utopias.

[Zaras]

And besides, if loving your nation and fatherland is bad, then what should we love?

It's bad when it's manipulated and used as a tool to stoke hatred and sectarianism.

Which is far too often, hence why I believe it's an outdated notion.

[Zaras]

I agree with this totally, the EU bureaucrats weren't elected democratically but were just chosen by their superiors.

The European Parliament is elected, but nobody bothers to turn up for those elections, then they get surprised when the EU does things or appoints people they disagree with.

[Zaras]

No, but it explains crime better than any other factors. Poverty, with other cultural groups, is not an important causal agent.

I disagree. Poverty a lot of the times is a more important factor in crime than culture. I can't really remember any culture based entirely around crime.

[Zaras]

If you can't respect someone's opinion then what's the point of being libertarian, mister? Don't libertarians love freedom of speech? And doesn't freedom of speech include respecting someone's opinion, no matter how racist, bigoted, idiotic, neo-Nazi and clueless it may be?

You're confusing respecting someone's opinion with accepting it. I can accept the fact that somebody would be a racist, but I don't respect it because it's a bad opinion.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean respecting somebody else's opinion, it means allowing it.

People with opinions that don't deserve respect don't have a right to not be told their opinions suck.

[Zaras]

They want to shut people up who think differently, because their views do not hold in any normal debate.

Funny how I don't remember telling anybody to shut up.

And yes, views like "we should round 'em all up and kick 'em out" do not hold in a normal debate.

[Zaras]

Zaras, we are totally f**ked up thanks to the EU, i know that it has helped Poland, Romania... And even my own country, but it has made a bad diagnosis of the spanish crisis, It blamed is of spending too much, but we had superavit, the deficit came later (and in part thanks to them)

I've repeatedly said that I am angry at the EU because it fucks up and I want it to be a better thing than it is in reality. I'm not denying its fuckups. The Growth and Stability Pact was a horrible, horrible idea from beginning to end, and the euro should've been designed according to the Werner Plan more than the Delors Plan.

[Zaras]

Sounds a lot like Trotskyists, who tend to throw everyone who doesn't agree with them or who suggests a different party line gets kicked out of the party and who demonise everyone who criticises their methods.

That's Stalinists and Leninists.

And Blanquists, now that I think about it.

[Zaras]

Funny how I don't remember telling anybody to shut up.

And yes, views like "we should round 'em all up and kick 'em out" do not hold in a normal debate.

You mean like this

Whatever population of Greece wants Golden Dawn is a bunch of motherfucking idiots and they should be sent to mandatory humanity school, to learn how to be humans.

Yes, I like hyperbole in my insults. I know it's bad for me.

[Zaras]

That says bad things about Hungarian voters.

I don't care what it says about Hungarian voters. It's their country not yours. They should get to decide how to run it.

And I get to call them all names when they fuck up, just as I would with every other country including my own.

[Zaras]

I've repeatedly said that I am angry at the EU because it fucks up and I want it to be a better thing than it is in reality. I'm not denying its fuckups. The Growth and Stability Pact was a horrible, horrible idea from beginning to end, and the euro should've been designed according to the Werner Plan more than the Delors Plan.

The euro should've never existed.

Or at least it should've been brought in after a long period of harmonisation where the EU's economies were largely aligned, instead of being a currency calibrated for the North that ended up fucking over the South.

[Zaras]

Haha... and you expect to be taken seriously..

Considering that I'm in a thread about fascism, no, I don't really have that expectation. When the hell did I say I expect to be taken seriously anyways?

Debates aren't supposed to be about 'hyperbole' or 'insults' their supposed to be rational disagreements argued in a respectful and at least semi-educated manner.

But this is a debate that involves Nazis. None of those debates fit the bill.

"hyperbole and insults" are for 4 year olds arguing over whose turn it is to press the elevator button.

Or fascist supporters.

[Zaras]

My problem is with you not understanding how an unelected government in Brussels pushing around an elected government in Budapest is BAD for democracy.

Name one time I said that the EU is fine as it is and it doesn't need to be more democratic. Oh, wait, you can't.

I know it's bad, but the nuance of the situation means that I don't care if the EU is unelected as long as it slaps the Hungarian government around when it tries to attack democracy.

The job of institutions and the electorate is to balance each other out. I regard this no differently as how the Californian Supreme Court spanked and sent Californian voters to their room once they voted for Prop. 8.

[Zaras]

Actually, that is a rather simplistic point of view. Throughout this thread, I have been sourcing my remarks, and I have told you I'm a social democrat in theory but I can see where the far right is coming from. Instead of responding properly, you have taken to methods bordering on hate speech by any account, and you've shown no more tact than a flying brick anywhere in this thread.

I wasn't referring to you when I said it involves Nazis.

[Zaras]

But this is a debate that involves Nazis. None of those debates fit the bill.
(...)
I wasn't referring to you when I said it involves Nazis.

You were referring to the debate itself. In extension, you were referring to me as a participant of this debate.
And really, anything immature I've seen so far did come from you and one or two others.

I must have different standards of maturity or something.

Plus, I don't get how you can say it borders on "hate speech". Hate speech "vilifies a person or a group on the basis of color, disability, ethnicity, gender, nationality, race, religion, sexual orientation, or other characteristic." I've insulted opinions.

[Zaras]

My problem isn't with your right to say whatever insult comes to your head first in regards to Hungarian voters. My problem is with you not understanding how an unelected government in Brussels pushing around an elected government in Budapest is BAD for democracy.

Thank you.

PS: Isnt it ironic? The EU expects countries to be democratic but its not democratic itself...

No more ironic than the UN being stuck in its outdated structure.

[Zaras]

Whose a Nazi? I haven't seen anybody advocate genocide.

I've seen people support Golden Dawn and basically throwing people out of countries because of their immigrant status.

The fact that you equate increased immigration control with the Holocaust is proof enough that the entire Multiculturalist view is so skewed it defies reality.

I did not equate that, you did. I never brought up the Holocaust.

Especially considering, in your view, anybody who doesn't welcome rampant immigration with open arms is a 'fascist'.

I know my view better than you, and you haven't described my view at all.

[Zaras]

You, along with some others, have vilified Greeks,

The ones who support Golden Dawn. Unlike people who've villified Greeks for being lazy or other stereotypical crap like that.

vilified native Europeans,

The ones who eat up nativist resentment.

vilified Hungarian voters for what they voted for

The ones who voted FIDESZ.

and have vilified catholics.

Don't remember that.

I also don't remember ever villifying people by clearly stating "All X are Y" instead of "I think the X who are Y are <insult>".

[Zaras]

No more ironic than the UN being stuck in its outdated structure.

But the UN doesnt share a currency, and has little power over the member states than the EU

Clearly, the best international institution design would be somewhere in the middle between the EU and UN.

[Zaras]

There should be no European Union. Just multilateral cooperation, not a supranational dictatorship that holds precedence over national law.

To call the EU a dictatorship is just silly.

It's largely accomplished the main goal it was designed for - preventing another gigantic European war from starting. (It didn't do shit in Bosnia and Kosovo, but that's probably because nobody anticipated that.)