Fascist rise in europe

[Zaras]

Het Jaarrapport Integratie 2010 zet een aantal onmisbare statistische feiten en ontwikkelingen met betrekking tot integratie van niet-westerse allochtonen op een rij. Op diverse aspecten komt aan bod waarin zij verschillen van de autochtonen. Ook worden allochtone bevolkingsgroepen onderling en over generaties heen vergeleken. De thema's die aan de orde komen zijn demografie, onderwijs, arbeidsmarkt, inkomen en uitkeringen, verkleuring van buurten, criminaliteit, sociale samenhang en jeugd en gezondheid. Daarnaast besteedt het boek apart aandacht aan de nieuwe immigrantengroepen uit Afghanistan, Irak, Iran, Somalië, Polen, Roemenië en Bulgarije.

Oh, hooray. It wasn't enough that Italy had politicians drum up xenophobia against us, now it's one of the coolest countries in Europe's turn.

[Zaras]

Which reminds me, immigrants may be willing to work but no-one may be willing to give them work. That's just as likely an explanation for the unemployment rates.

I'm surprised you're the first person to bring up that possibility!

[Zaras]

Ciprian Constantinescu

Another thing. Who the fuck is that guy in the first place?

[Zaras]

I'm surprised you're the first person to bring up that possibility!

I don't believe you. Especially given that's the sort of thing I'd expect you to say.

No, really, I am surprised nobody else thought of this!

You're Romanian?

Yup.

[Zaras]

yes,actually,when Golden Dawn members went to Germany to meet their ideological brothers of NDP they got beaten by them because their "comrades" considered them inferior ..hilarious.

An example that should be followed by every stupid far-right extremist.

[Zaras]

Dude, really, we Indians would never do that. What right wing racist propaganda do you watch?

Ι have seen them,I knew people who were there,they were greeks celebrating new year's eve and bunch of pakis seperated the males from the wifes and daughters and started grabing their boobs and more... Even my own cousin was almost raped by a paki.

Why didn't you report it to the fucking police then?

[Zaras]

No, really, I am surprised nobody else thought of this!

Good Lord... I am still having difficulty believing that, it's quite obvious really.

It's so bleeding obvious, it's embarrassing.

[Zaras]

That's the one thing I like about aggressive nationalist and Neo-Nazi groups when they meet each other. Instead of uniting, and forming a credible threat to society as a whole, they just kick lumps out of each other, call each other "scum" and "untermensch" and then go home.

Long may it continue.

well,as long as stupidity exists in humans...

No better sign of that than the existence of Nazis.

[Zaras]

Why didn't you report it to the fucking police then?

Why would I?It wasnt me and police no longer does anything,you call them for Pakis breaking into your house and they tell you to call golden dawn instead

Quit making shit up, dude.

[Zaras]

Quit making shit up, dude.

For my cousin assaulted or for the police not doing shit?

Latter.

Camelza already mentioned that the Greek police is disorganised, but that part about telling people to call fascists to beat up immigrants is fucking ludicrous.

[Zaras]

English.

Oh for God's sake, beggars can't be choosers. Maybe that's all Melas could find.

Then that says something about how fact-challenged his stance is.

[Zaras]

Then that says something about how fact-challenged his stance is.

Not really. Considering the fact that the rape occurred in Greece, you'd expect that most reports of it would be in Greek, no? As I said, it doesn't disprove Melas because he posted a Greek source.

But if it makes the other poster happy, a quick Google search produced some results in English.
http://digitaljournal.com/article/330273

Okay, that's one guy committing a crime.

Not a reason to advocate fascism and ethnic cleansing.

[Zaras]

Melas, you should stop using "Paki" in your posts. It's almost like the N word, in terms of offence.

I did try to tell him he sounds like a fucking BNPer, but he didn't listen.

[Zaras]

I did try to tell him he sounds like a BNPer, but he didn't listen.

Dude, stop swearing all the time.

It's hard to not swear when talking about Nazis.

Plus, it's not like swearing makes a difference to what I'm saying.

[Zaras]

Not a reason to advocate fascism and ethnic cleansing.

That's great? And where, exactly, was I advocating that?

Dude, I wasn't talking about you there. I meant Melas.

I know too many of them (they are like 40% of my shcool) and they are all the same,few exceptions but mostly deuchebags

You must go to a shitty school then, if your classmates are all douches.

NO,THE PAKIS SHOULD! These 'people' who do no harm are selling these things illegally and beat up the legal greek sellers of the area

Dude, live in reality for a while. There aren't any sources, so you're clearly making shit up.

They enterned illegaly,

Not a crime. A misdemeanour. There's more important fucking things to worry about.

they have no license to sell and the goods are either stolen or illegally shipped

Every country has its Del Boys. Quit whining.

Well did you see any greek selleres cause I did not

Don't leap to idiotic conclusions then. Have you thought that the immigrants do the work the white Greeks don't want to because it's too humilliating or poorly paid?

The police has a policy of not even making anything seem like discrimination, or they're brought to trial themselves. You can try to offer any kind of zany explanation, but fact remains more than two-thirds of all Moroccan men in the Netherlands have been arrested at least once before the age of 22. Try to pseudo-scientifically explain as much as you like, but these are the figures and that's how it works.

Sure, they're arrested, but do they get actually charged for something? Convicted? What are they arrested for? Is it anything worth giving a shit about, or just simple public disorder nonsense?

For the past two decades, the government has been trying to get them out of those ghettos, but they're refusing to leave to a point where they start attacking people who try to bring up that there are better houses available.

Maybe it's because before the past two decades the government didn't realise it's a bad idea to dump them in ghettos?

I'll tell you this - the only black family in this neighbourhood lives a few houses away from me, and I've never actually seen them apart from the time the guy was making a rather loud drug deal in front of the house my tax money pays for.

So? What the fuck does that prove? That you have bad neighbours? Well, how can you tell if you've only seen them once, and never bothered to interact with them?

And guess what? Some of the highest immigrant crime rates in the world. That's what multiculturalism is about.

Blah blah blah, this shit again. Immigrants aren't inherently predisposed to crime, and if you think otherwise join the PVV or something. Multiculturalism is about not imposing a monoculture on everybody in the state. Simple as that.

Which majority? Can you find some figures on that?

It's hard to find figures on a silent majority, so I dare you otherwise: find me facts that all Muslims are evil, terroristic, bigoted shitheads. You can't. That's not all of them. It's like saying all Christians are evil scum because of the terrorist attacks on abortion clinics and Oklahoma bombing. Maybe, gee, I dunno, try not to automatically assume all Muslims are extremist Wahabbi dickstains? Maybe remember that there's tons of sects of Islam with significant differences? It's like judging all of Judaism based on the Haredis.

...not agreeing with you. Great.

Yes. Fuck them if they hold stupid opinions, like that immigration is something bad and it should be stopped. I'm not going to stand for that kind of nativist bullshit.

Can't be overcome.

I like to be optimistic.

At the moment, we have a hybrid. Monoculturalism with mostly-detached counterculturalism. If you don't know what that means, I suggest you stop arguing about it. There is no cultural unity through diversity. Diversity means disunity, in practical terms. Believe me - I live in an area where some neighbourhoods have muslim majorities, and there's absolutely no cultural dialogue going on. They're in charge there, and we're in charge here. That's how it goes.

Then maybe work on putting some actual goddamn multiculturalism in place instead of complaining about it while admitting that it doesn't exist and that a combination of long-held government neglect and other alienating factors have led to a bad situation of self-segregation and isolation between the communities? Maybe, uh, try breaking down that kind of tension and begin dialogue before advocating that they be thrown out?

Yes. I've tried looking at poverty, but the black family that deals drugs a few houses away is actually a lot wealthier than me, a poor law student.

One family doesn't prove a trend.

For natives and western immigrants, as well as East Asians in a comparable socioeconomic situation, there are absolutely no poverty figures or crime figures or unemployment figures anywhere near those of, specifically, black Africans, muslims and Afro-Caribbeans.

That's interesting. Obvious next question then: how come Africans, Muslims and Afro-Caribbeans are in a worse situation compared to the Dutch, East Asians and Western immigrants?

And no, you're not allowed to say they're predisposed to it or that criminality is somehow in their genes.

Those are the problematic groups in this country, and those are the problematic groups in every European country. Well, along with gypsies.

ROMA. THEY'RE CALLED ROMA. Or Romani. I'm never quite sure myself which is the right one, so I alternate between the two.

Dude, you think I don't know about problematic groups? I'm from Romania. Well, question: what makes problematic groups problematic? Obviously, the Netherlands doesn't have Romania's absolutely fucking disgraceful history of race and minority relations, but what are the factors that isolate those groups from the mainstream and give them the impression that they don't have a choice but to do the things they do?

You do know what you're saying here, right? You're saying we should legalise theft and selling stolen goods.

No, he's saying give them citizenship. Stolen goods dealing is going to be a constant thing in every country, but the least you can do is not force immigrants into doing it because they can't get a job due to the lack of proper documentation or discrimination.

Which part of inviting massive groups of people without any perspective over is human liberation for you?
Which part of inviting millions of people over who do not believe in equal rights or freedom of expression is human liberation for you?

Which part of not ignoring immigration and actually having programs in place to help develop perspective and teach them to either agree with equal human rights or at least STFU about it is so hard?

If the greek people want Golden Dawn the goverment has no right to ban it

Whatever population of Greece wants Golden Dawn is a bunch of motherfucking idiots and they should be sent to mandatory humanity school, to learn how to be humans.

There is no reason talking with them,they believe there should be no nations

To quote "Stars and Stripes of Corruption" by the Dead Kennedys: "Look around, we're all people. Who needs countries anyway?".

That means they live off our money, our food supply, our housing and our health care.

Then do a better job of integrating them into society and quit pulling the whole us vs them shtick. You keep whining about them taking from us, us, us, but who the hell is us?

Your tolerance is, paradoxically, a causal agent for intolerance.

I've brought this up before, about the paradox that tolerance can be taken too far and end up defending intolerance. I'm fiercely against it.

If you flood people in who oppose rights for women and homosexuals, you'll eventually end up with a large part of society that kills homosexuals and rapes women for not dressing conservatively enough

The optimal solution: let people in but constantly yell at them for being ass-backwards and bully them into learning how to be normal human beings instead of totalitarian misogynist gaybashers.

Oh, that's happening in Europe already?

No it fucking isn't and you don't have any data to prove it. Stop sounding like a Daily Mail reporter.

You see, Africa does not actually have the agricultural output to feed its current population.

This is the fault of the First World and all its loathsome institutions like the IMF and World Bank that forced the Washington consensus onto Africa and forced them to open their economies before they were fully developed, and they couldn't compete with the Western world. So their sectors were largely wiped out.

You want to reduce immigration? Develop the third world instead of exploiting it.

Ad hominem does not constitute a factual argument.

Ad hominem fallacy.

And Africa could have the agricultural output to feed its population. Countries such as Malawi, where a famine was turned into a foord surplus in just 5 years, prove that.

Thanks for bringing up Malawi! The World Bank once forced Malawi to withdraw its fertiliser subsidies and caused a famine. Malawi returned to normal when it told the World Bank to go fuck itself, and now it actually exports agricultural products!

Why should the west feed africa anyway?Shouldnt they have built economies by now?

That's just what I said earlier! The West needs to feed Africa because the West fucked it all up in the first place! Goddamn white people runining everything.

No, because the years of European Tyranny and Discrimination has stripped Africa of it's prosperity.

Which is why South Korea, ravaged in the 1950s due to European and American superpowers fighting each other in a proxy war, has developed from a level of development similar to Uganda's to one eleven times better.

Ghana, actually, South Korea's GDP was comparable to Ghana's. The program of export-led industrialisation and mandatory reinvestments probably wouldn't work for Africa though.

Which is why South Korea, ravaged in the 1950s due to European and American superpowers fighting each other in a proxy war, has developed from a level of development similar to Uganda's to one eleven times better.

Yeah, but South Korea was never colonized by Europeans, and it actually maintained a stable democracy.

WRONG.

South Korea was a brutal military dictatorship until 1987.

Reality is, these people do not want contraception.

Explain how Senegal launched a successful sex education initiative in the 1980s and has one of the lowest rates of AIDS infection in Africa.

We shouldn't give them aid,instead we should teach those people how to produce food/dig wells/read by themselfes in order not to be depended on aid programs and foreigners
However,to do that we have first to get rid of the multinational companies taking advantage of the corrupt African governments ..which is kinda hard.

Yes. Kick out the IMF and World Bank, let Africa use protectionist measures to develop its own economies, invest massively in infrastructure, education, healthcare and social services.

Unfortunately, that seems rather impossible. Health care costs in the west are quite nearly impossible to afford already

Buuuuulllllllllllllshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. Because of universal healthcare, Western countries don't have to spend a lot on health.

Dont you give me the 'we came from africa' crap,its stupid and untrue.

The first humans evolved in the eastern part of Africa. Suck on that.

[Zaras]

It doesn't matter where humans evolved. The EU is f*cking Europe thats the truth of it.

Because having a common market is such a horrible thing.

[Zaras]

No, they're f*cked up because your country fudged its numbers to join the Euro. It's no-one's fault but Greece's.

We actually never voted on entering EU,the Euro or NATO ...Simitis is to blame,we didn't know the numbers were forged and most of us over here prefered Drachma over euro.

Simitis didn't bring Greece into the EU, Papandreou did in 1981. But it is true, Greece was so completely unprepared to join the eurozone it should've just kept the drachma.

[Zaras]

Nope, you aren't. You're a bigot who advocates ethnic cleansing. On a Venn diagram, that never intersects with being "well-functioning and normal".

You are the bigot here.

Making comically dumb accusations doesn't prove anything, mang. I'm not stupid enough to advocate that immigrants be thrown out of countries. You, on the other hand, have only pulled the "NO U" card.

[Zaras]

Simitis didn't bring Greece into the EU, Papandreou did in 1981. But it is true, Greece was so completely unprepared to join the eurozone it should've just kept the drachma.

Actually it was Rallis and Karamanlis' efforts,Papandreou was a fierce radical socialist opposing both NATO & the EEC back in the day ..he simply took over exactly when we entered the EU ..this shows also that most Greeks would have refused to join EU in 1981,if there was a vote on the subject.

I refered to Simitis because he was the one that forged the numbers and brought the Euro.

Yeah. I dunno what Greeks would've objected to - after all, Greece was the first Mediterranean country to join the EEC after they overthrew their dictatorship. Papandreou's anti-NATO and EEC rhetoric was just electoral rhetoric, considering he didn't leave NATO or cancel the EEC membership in office.

[Zaras]

George Soros isn't a socialist, he's just a poser.

And just because you're so fucking concerned about me as opposed to making an argument that doesn't rely on name-calling, I actually do crap. I'm not constipated, silly.

You are acting ten times more childish, you little runt.

Who the fuck still calls people "runt", grandma? Runt is a Todd Rundgren album, not an insult!

[Zaras]

Making comically dumb accusations doesn't prove anything, mang. I'm not stupid enough to advocate that immigrants be thrown out of countries.

Ethnic cleansing means exterminating other races not throwing them out, people who dont contribute to society dont belong in said society.

Well, then, why haven't you removed yourself from society yet?

Throwing people out of a country because of the colour of their skin or their provenience is not much removed from exterminating them for the colour of their skin or their place of origin. It's the same stupid fucking evil logic behind both urges, and they simply can't be defended.

If we can remove people from society because they don't contribute, let's start with the neo-Nazis, fascists, racists, white supremacists and nationalist bigots. They're the most useless people on the planet.

[Zaras]

He seems far more mature than you.

cunt is a mature word? fuck is a mature word? really?

Yes. Mature people aren't scared of fucking curse words. You're quite a coward, using the excuse of bad language to completely dismiss somebody's argument and not bother to think about it.

I believe there is no contradiction between making a detailed argument which uses facts and theory and cursing like a sailor and sarcastically insulting fascists. In fact, I like doing all three at once!

[Zaras]

This betrays a sense of humour. No - multiculturalism is much wider than that. It is the idea that cultures can mutually benefit each other if they are close to each other, physically. However, as it turns out in every European country, we now simply have us and them. They rule the inner cities apart from central business districts, and we rule the rest of the country and reluctantly pay for their expenses and suffer from their crimes. That's exactly where European far-right sentiment comes from - we're being bled dry to feed, shelter and take care of them while they piss on our couch, to use a popular Dutch analogy.

Then maybe Europe should've done more to integrate the immigrants in the mainstream. I'm honestly not surprised - of course there's going to be resentment when two sides are basically completely separate from one another.

Strawmen tend to be very hard to defend.

Which is why you haven't tried to defend your implication that Muslims are inherently criminalistic.

No - what I'm simply saying is that new generations of muslims in this country are doing worse, that Wahhabism is increasingly popular here

Have you bothered to try and find out why that's happening?

It's called culture.

Thanks for generalising all Africans and Afro-Caribbeans as possessed of a culture that's based on criminality and evil. Some strawman you have there.

Actually, we've been trying to help them for fifty-odd years. However, it's hard to teach them things when their parents teach them from an early age that homosexuality is a mortal sin, that women do not have equal rights, that apostasy should be punishable by death and that westerners are culturally, religiously and even racially inferior.

More needs to be done to break the parents' influence and send them to public schools then. Silly parents, thinking their kids are some kind of vessel for their own views instead of humans that have the right to form their own opinions.

Nah. I was just pointing out there for a second that accusing me of mental illness after I brought up figures that proved exactly what I claimed was a bit silly.

Well, yeah, but that wasn't an ad hominem then. It was just silly.

You do know Africa has had famines for at least 40,000 years, and that the only time those were slightly under control was during colonialism, right?

Maybe if the West would just let the Green revolution take its course without fucking everything up, then it wouldn't be a problem, right?

As for being under control in colonialism: Bengal famine of 1943.

[Zaras]

I'm not trying to insult. its against my religion

Pshyeah.

just trying to point out how you're behaving, you're just as bad as these so-called "fascists".

You do realise the "NO U" thing makes you sound really stupid, and doesn't actually constitute a counterargument to anything?

[Zaras]

By the way, nationalism means honoring ones country

It's an outdated notion anyway.