Fascist rise in europe

[Quintium]

Have you even read my post? I specifically said that there was no objective way of measuring what an objectively-determined immediate motivation actually is. That's mostly something that gets decided on a case-by-case basis. And since these decisions on a case-by-case basis are made by humans with all their biases, you could still get cases where the police arrested a suspect that wouldn't have been arrested if he were a different person in the same conditions.

You don't get it, I think. Do you even speak the language? They need an objective reason to arrest you. That is, they need to see your ID card left at a crime scene, or they need to see you trying to steal a bicycle (although that crime generally isn't pursued by police, because it happens too often). And then there's the general rule of behaviour for police that states you have to be consistent in what you do. If you arrest one person for rape, you can't let a second get away for any reason if you suspect them of it. Furthermore, if there is any chance of personal interests playing a role, policemen are required to hand over the case to their colleagues.

You don't have to tell me the difference between speculation and facts. In fact, I specifically said in my post that these reasons might not be true or valid. I just wanted to point out that there are a number of factors that could possibly infuence the rate of arrests. Any researcher worth his salt will tell you that if you want to prove something with statistics, you have to make sure that you eliminate factors that could artificially influence said statistics. Arrest rates are dominated by hundreds of factors that will almost always skew it (eyewitness testemony, whether or not the crime was reported...)

No. These are solid figures. You can try to talk yourself out of it, but fact is, two-thirds of Moroccan men in this country have been arrested at least once.
And in the rare case of a wrongful arrest, they're disciplined for arresting someone who wasn't guilty. These are simply facts.

I wanted to point out that saying "arrests = crime rate" is not necessarily true because there are a lot of factors that can influence the rate of arrests. The rate of convictions is far less arbitrary because you need to go through the entire legal system with all its checks and balances before you get convicted.

Problem is, the entire legal system is a joke in this country. For almost anything up to violent rape, you can get a settlement.
That means you pay money to public prosecution in a settlement, you don't get a criminal record and you don't have to appear before a judge.

You could still figure out how criminal immigrant groups are by comparing the conviction rates in percentage to those of non-immigrants. The amount of convictions in general. You could still say that immigrants are convicted of X% of crimes that don't get settled while non-immigrants get convicted of Y% of crimes that don't get settled. Then you could work out the relative crime rates of these two groups regardless of the amount of crimes that get settled out of court.

Those, too, see them over-represented. In 2007, the figure was as follows: 45% native Dutch, 55% foreign, mostly Moroccan.

And the last, the human body is prepared to live in AFRICA not in Europe, and being white is, indeed, an error, a genetic error becoise men were originally white, so if there was a supreme race, it would be the black.

Which is why Africans were defeated easily, which is why Europeans have traditionally been more technologically advanced and have managed to subdue entire continents with armies numbering just over 400 people, yes. Of course, consider this - everyone but Sub-Saharan Africans is the result of a genetic mutation that occurred when humans migrated out of Africa. You could say that, in adapting to changing circumstances, non-sub-saharan Africans are actually the next step in evolution. Adding to your earlier statements, I'm agnostic. I'm not religious, and I'm certainly not catholic. That's why I see the menace of religion, and comparing the two from an independent point of view, I can see Islam being the worst religion in the world.

[Quintium]

denyinig that humanoty cames from africa it's like denying that 1+1=2

Not denying that, which is exactly the point. They came out of Africa and developed for 40,000 years to adapt to their surroundings elsewhere.
Those surroundings required less simple physical strength and more ingenuity.

I don't care if your nation it's orthodox or not.

Now we're talking Eastern Orthodoxy, which is completely different from what we were discussing.

by the way, you owe me some euros as I rescued your economy.

Weren't you Spanish, and wasn't I Dutch with German ancestors?

[Quintium]

How is where humans evolved relevant to modern European politics and the rise of the Euroskeptic?

It's not, but if someone wants to bring it up, they can go right ahead and I'll drive them into the ground for it. Also, please do not equate euroscepticism with fascism, because in practical application, the eurocrats are actually much closer to fascism.

[Quintium]

quimtium, do i have to remind you the africans conquered the whole iberian peninsula in just 3 years? (remember it was the VIII century)

Actually, you're completely wrong about your own history. The eighth century was actually when Charles Martel, an ancestor of mine, gathered an actual army rather than a village militia and, while outnumbered, marched right over them at Tours and started the movement that would eventually drive them right back into the Meditteranean.

we're now more powerful for a simple reason: climate it's much more hospitable in Europe than in Africa, which has lead to higher pop. And, as we didnt have to hunt to survive, we could spend time to develop (Africa couldnt) and much of our develpment its thanks to materials that came from africa (coloniazosation, XIX century)

Actually, that's entirely not true. The very reason we've developed technologically is because of the climate. It was much colder here, meaning with the same tools and practices we'd have a life expectancy much lower than Africa's. We were forced into development and adaptation by the climate. When we conquered the more tribal parts of Africa in the nineteenth century, we were dumbfounded to see that many of them still worked with stone tools and hunted for a living.

Sure, they're arrested, but do they get actually charged for something? Convicted? What are they arrested for? Is it anything worth giving a shit about, or just simple public disorder nonsense?

As I said a trillion times before, they can usually strike a deal to get out without appearing in court for any crime up to violent rape.
They usually don't get charged, but it is informally acknowledged that they are very much guilty, and they de facto admit that through a settlement.

Maybe it's because before the past two decades the government didn't realise it's a bad idea to dump them in ghettos?

According to some sources, their crime rates have increased dramatically. The second and third generation are doing worse, not better, than the first. There is no source available saying any generation of muslim immigrants did better than the previous one. It's something even the most ardent cultural relativist can't claim.

Multiculturalism is about not imposing a monoculture on everybody in the state. Simple as that.

This betrays a sense of humour. No - multiculturalism is much wider than that. It is the idea that cultures can mutually benefit each other if they are close to each other, physically. However, as it turns out in every European country, we now simply have us and them. They rule the inner cities apart from central business districts, and we rule the rest of the country and reluctantly pay for their expenses and suffer from their crimes. That's exactly where European far-right sentiment comes from - we're being bled dry to feed, shelter and take care of them while they piss on our couch, to use a popular Dutch analogy.

It's hard to find figures on a silent majority, so I dare you otherwise: find me facts that all Muslims are evil, terroristic, bigoted shitheads. You can't.

Strawmen tend to be very hard to defend. Once more, you prove your own ineptitude. No - what I'm simply saying is that new generations of muslims in this country are doing worse, that Wahhabism is increasingly popular here, that muslims exercise political power over our traditional politicians and that they are held to a favourable double standard by law and practice. I'm not going to try to find figures to defend your little strawman.

Obvious next question then: how come Africans, Muslims and Afro-Caribbeans are in a worse situation compared to the Dutch, East Asians and Western immigrants?

It's called culture and it has nothing to do with that racial strawman of yours.

Which part of not ignoring immigration and actually having programs in place to help develop perspective and teach them to either agree with equal human rights or at least STFU about it is so hard?

Actually, we've been trying to help them for fifty-odd years. However, it's hard to teach them things when their parents teach them from an early age that homosexuality is a mortal sin, that women do not have equal rights, that apostasy should be punishable by death and that westerners are culturally, religiously and even racially inferior.

Ad hominem fallacy.

Nah. I was just pointing out there for a second that accusing me of mental illness after I brought up figures that proved exactly what I claimed was a bit silly.

That's just what I said earlier! The West needs to feed Africa because the West fucked it all up in the first place! Goddamn white people runining everything.

You do know Africa has had famines for at least 40,000 years, and that the only time those were slightly under control was during colonialism, right?

[Quintium]

I believe there is no contradiction between making a detailed argument which uses facts and theory and cursing like a sailor and sarcastically insulting fascists. In fact, I like doing all three at once!

Must be a bloody disappointment, then, that you fail completely at using facts.

[Quintium]

Then maybe Europe should've done more to integrate the immigrants in the mainstream. I'm honestly not surprised - of course there's going to be resentment when two sides are basically completely separate from one another.

No. We've tried everything throughout Europe, from handling them in inhumane ways in the south and east to pampering them and paying for everything they needed or wanted in the north. We even tried racist employment policies to get more non-western immigrants in well-paid jobs. Still didn't change the undeniable fact that new generations are doing worse, not better, than old generations.

Which is why you haven't tried to defend your implication that Muslims are inherently criminalistic.

Where did I say that?

Have you bothered to try and find out why that's happening?

Yes. They hate the west because they're trapped in their own group's ultraconservative morals while being placed in a land of plenty, that's the explanation given by our intelligence services and sociologists, who managed to infiltrate the most violently-fundamentalist groups.

Thanks for generalising all Africans and Afro-Caribbeans as possessed of a culture that's based on criminality and evil. Some strawman you have there.

First suggestion: read up on what a strawman actually is, because I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Second suggestion: not all of them, but many of them do actually have cultures that endorse, when mixed into our society, things that are crimes here.

More needs to be done to break the parents' influence and send them to public schools then.

There are only a few private schools in this entire country, and they're usually only for diplomats' children.
They all go to public school. But public school has absolutely no value to them since it is not related to their own cultural and religious group.

Well, yeah, but that wasn't an ad hominem then. It was just silly.

Get back to that dictionary. Looked up the word strawman already? Good boy.

Are you blind or something? Show me where I said that your figures weren't facts.

Where did I say you said that? No - you tried to nuance the fact that two-thirds of all Moroccan men in this country - a total of several tens of thousands - had been arrested by the time they turned 22.

Then the problem is with the legal system, not the immigrants. Go reform your justice system before you start blaming immigrants.

And that's where it ties in with the original topic: we can't. European Union law.
And we can easily blame their immense crime rates on their culture - Chinese people, no comparable figures. Western immigrants, no comparable figures.

There, that's much better. The Dutch government said that around 55% all the foreigners who were arrested for a crime actually did it, were responsible for it, and got punished for it (supposing the rates are actually the same with the cases thrown out of court). That number actually has some context to it.

Actually, that's you reading a non-existent context into it because it suits your point. It's clear you have not a single clue what you're talking about. Oh lordy lordy, here we go.
Those were prison inmate populations. 55% were foreign, mainly Moroccan, and 45% were Dutch.

[Quintium]

And whose fault is that?

The fault of the naive idiots who imagined several cultures blending in with each other and 'enriching' each other.

You implied it a few minutes ago when you brought up Muslims in the first place.

That was not the question.

Now ask those same guys how best to break those morals.

Their answers come down to 'root out fundamentalist Islam and put them under supervision'.

Suggestion: culture isn't the only thing that leads to crime.

No, but it explains crime better than any other factors. Poverty, with other cultural groups, is not an important causal agent.

[Quintium]

If you can't respect someone's opinion then what's the point of being libertarian, mister? Don't libertarians love freedom of speech? And doesn't freedom of speech include respecting someone's opinion, no matter how racist, bigoted, idiotic, neo-Nazi and clueless it may be?

Wait a minute. We're not dealing with libertarians at all here. I'm familiar with the type - I encounter them a bit too often in debates.
These are people who think people should be free to do what they want, as long as it's what they want.
They want to shut people up who think differently, because their views do not hold in any normal debate.

[Quintium]

That means that you said that I was trying to talk myself out of the figure of two-third of Moroccan men being arrested which I never did.

You tried to nuance it. There is no nuance - these are facts. You can debate the underlying mechanisms, but you need to back that up before you try to talk your way around facts.

Waaaitwaitwaitwait. You put ratio of the the PRISON POPULATION there?

That was a little psychological test. You have a clear interpretation bias, since you happily assumed it to be something confirming your opinion.
Regardless, more than half of our prison population consists of immigrants. Vhat about zhat?

That means I was looking for the percentage of immigrants who were convicted of crimes compared to the amount of non-immigrants who were convicted. It was very clear what I was looking for.

That's called racial profiling, and it's so illegal it was only this year that we found out crime rates amongst Moroccan men were not 33%, but 65%.

[Quintium]

But this is a debate that involves Nazis. None of those debates fit the bill.

Actually, that is a rather simplistic point of view. Throughout this thread, I have been sourcing my remarks, and I have told you I'm a social democrat in theory but I can see where the far right is coming from. Instead of responding properly, you have taken to methods bordering on hate speech by any account, and you've shown no more tact than a flying brick anywhere in this thread.

[Quintium]

But this is a debate that involves Nazis. None of those debates fit the bill.
(...)
I wasn't referring to you when I said it involves Nazis.

You were referring to the debate itself. In extension, you were referring to me as a participant of this debate.
And really, anything immature I've seen so far did come from you and one or two others.

[Quintium]

I must have different standards of maturity or something.

Quite.

Plus, I don't get how you can say it borders on "hate speech". Hate speech "vilifies a person or a group on the basis of color, disability, ethnicity, gender, nationality, race, religion, sexual orientation, or other characteristic." I've insulted opinions.

You, along with some others, have vilified Greeks, vilified native Europeans, vilified Hungarian voters for what they voted for and have vilified catholics.

[Quintium]

There should be no European Union. Just multilateral cooperation, not a supranational dictatorship that holds precedence over national law.

[Quintium]

It's largely accomplished the main goal it was designed for - preventing another gigantic European war from starting. (It didn't do shit in Bosnia and Kosovo, but that's probably because nobody anticipated that.)

That goal could have been accomplished by building a giant concrete croissant in Paris and calling it a day.
There hasn't been a war despite the European Union, not because of it.

[Quintium]

Multinational cooperation instead of integration would also mean the absence of institutions like the European Court of Human Rights, which forced Ireland and Northern Ireland to junk their bans on homosexuality.

The European Court of Human Rights is a sham. I've studied it, very unfortunately, for a while.
Cases generally take years to process, and people can submit them for ludicrous reasons.

I'm also quite certain these states would have taken their own measures.

[Quintium]

The ICC is a horrible, horrible thing. I've often described it elsewhere as "the place dictators go when they don't have planes, tanks and economic interests working in their favour anymore". I can't see Hu Jintao, the monarchy of Saudi Arabia, Vladimir Putin, Silvio Berlusconi, Nicolas Sarkozy, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown or David Cameron just being arrested and tried there. It is not at all a court that looks into these matters equally - it is a court of opportunity and a method of imperialism.

[Ralkovia]

Fascism and protecting ones people are noble ideals. I think fascism is fantastic.

I dislike Nazism, mostly out of dislike for the treatments of Jews.

[Ralkovia]

Not always. I'm socially liberal, but I oppose throwing people around from other countries, because it's much better for their own countries to develop first. 1/5 rapes in Finland are done my Somalis, and Somalis make about 0,03% of the population, so there's that. There's nothing about communism that can in any way be described as anti-patriotic.

[Citation Needed]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... G9nC1GqPva

It's not about Finland, but I can go on. Finding non-English sources is hard.

[Ralkovia]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... G9nC1GqPva

It's not about Finland, but I can go on. Finding non-English sources is hard.

That still leaves 4/5 rapes done by Finns. Your point just completely died.

No it didn't. The fact is that if one percent of your population is foreigners and foreigners commit 20% of the crimes that's ridiculous.

[Ralkovia]

That still leaves 4/5 rapes done by Finns. Your point just completely died.

How? He's talking about by proportion not absolutes. It's 5th grade math.

Education from whatever brainwashed European nation he's living in.

[Ralkovia]

Education from whatever brainwashed European nation he's living in.

Ahh.. what dictatorship is complete without propaganda that blatantly ignores simple facts. The EU is no exception.

Meanwhile, the Europeans blame Israel. We're obviously responsible for sending the Somali's over there to rape women.

[Ralkovia]

Meanwhile, the Europeans blame Israel. We're obviously responsible for sending the Somali's over there to rape women.

So true. thousands of rockets hit Israel, and the EU is all up in arms when the IDF moves in to defend themselves. Meanwhile a stray mortar hits Turkey and their all like "We support u BROOO!"

Having said that, I believe retaliation was justified in the Turkish case as well.

Indeed.

[Ralkovia]

Basic McCarthyian scare tactics, if someone disagrees with you then call them a communist.

Basic Multiculturalist tactics: If someone disagrees with you even a little bit denounce them as a racist, refuse to let them on TV, refuse to debate them, tweak electoral laws to keep them from reaching parliament (see France)

It's sad to see our former home fall apart.

[Ravenians]

wow, that's really crazy, our culture is very different from what you're describing, you should take action to it, yeah.?

[Risottia]

Where do you people blame this rise?

The capitalist model is in one of its crisis - a crisis they created in the last 20 years of neoliberist socioeconomical policies. So they must create and fuel a reactionary force, to prevent progressive forces from taking the upper hand.

Do you agree with it?

I agree that their numbers are on the rise. I would prefer seeing the same numbers getting slammed in a train and mailed to a re-education camp in Siberia.