Just married and never been kissed

[Allanea]

Nobody is talking about putting it off, I'm talking about pulling it in to get married as soon as possible.
It's a good recipe to get divorced young as well, in my experience.

She's 21. It's not like she's 17 or something.

[Cabra West]

Nobody is talking about putting it off, I'm talking about pulling it in to get married as soon as possible.
It's a good recipe to get divorced young as well, in my experience.

She's 21. It's not like she's 17 or something.

Yes. With 17, it wouldn't be legal. She's just 21, for crying out loud... legal, yes, but still way too young.

[Antebellum South]

How do you know if she is, though?

She looks happy in the video.

Besides, this may be the case in your are of the world. Certainly not the case with many people I know.

It is the culturally-accepted thing in some societies to put off marriage - not everywhere.

Nobody is talking about putting it off, I'm talking about pulling it in to get married as soon as possible.
It's a good recipe to get divorced young as well, in my experience.

Not necessarily. My Indian friend's parents didn't even meet each other until a few weeks before they got married in their early 20s (it was an arranged marriage needless to say), and I suspect they didn't even hold hands until the day of their marriage. And they've been quite happily married for some time now.

[Barringtonia]

I don't know. I personally find no "higher ethical purpose" to vegetarianism whatsoever. I'm Chinese (and I delight in consuming animal flesh like one), and I work at an animal testing facility. Double whammy.

That said, I'm thinking of becoming a vegetarian just because certain Hare Krishna crazies introduced to me the idea that, if I eat an animal, I'll reincarnate as one and get butchered and eaten in my next life.

Watch Sharkwaters, I stopped eating Shark Fin soup at the numerous banquets I attend and I'm often chastised along the lines of it being disrespectful to the host and that it's there, in front of me, I may as well eat it. I respond that it has to start somewhere.

That same pressure, albeit a variation, I feel, is in place in this particular case as well, it's an expectation.

[Allanea]

The elephant in the room here is religion, clearly, that is the reason she made this decision - fair enough, there's opinion in here but let's not pretend it's just a decision.

So? I fail to see why religion is a bad reason to make a decision (though of course Christianity does not prohibit kissing).

I can agree with that, I just feel people can cut themselves off from experience due to, in my opinion, irrational reasons - I've said before [not in this thread] that I welcome irrational decisions, I believe irrationality to be a benefit to mankind, I just find this case a little sad.

Here is what I think:

I find all sexual choice that do not harm other sapient human beings to be equal, morally. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, orgies, consensual incest (provided there are no unhealthy offspring), polyamoriness,wearing fursuits into bed, sex in public, necrophilia (provided the other person consented before their death), and, yes, sexual abstinence. I really do think that the morally correct approach is to not care.

As far as I am concern, your sexual choice (within the bounds of consent-based sexual ethic) is as much worthy of sadness or admiration as your choice of underwear design.

[Gauntleted Fist]

Yes. With 17, it wouldn't be legal. She's just 21, for crying out loud... legal, yes, but still way too young.

21 is too young to be married?

...o_O

[Allanea]

Yes. With 17, it wouldn't be legal. She's just 21, for crying out loud... legal, yes, but still way too young.

Incorrect. In Washington State marriage is legal since age 17 upon display of proof of age.

It requires parental consent from 16-year-olds.

http://www.coolnurse.com/marriage_laws.htm

[Cabra West]

Yes. With 17, it wouldn't be legal. She's just 21, for crying out loud... legal, yes, but still way too young.

21 is too young to be married?

...o_O

Put it this way :

My gran got married with 20, wished her husband dead for the rest of her life.
My mom got married with barely 21, divorced when 30. Keeps telling me it was the worst thing she's ever done, and keeps telling her children to have as many boyfriends/girlfriends as they can before deciding.
One of my friends got married when 22, divorced when 25.
Another one got married aged 20, seperated when 26 with 3 children... the court battle is epic and still going on.
Another one started getting married aged 19, I think she's just past her 3rd husband now.

Marriage is a lifetime decision. How can you make a good decision unless you get to know a bit of life, first?

[Antebellum South]

I don't know. I personally find no "higher ethical purpose" to vegetarianism whatsoever. I'm Chinese (and I delight in consuming animal flesh like one), and I work at an animal testing facility. Double whammy.

That said, I'm thinking of becoming a vegetarian just because certain Hare Krishna crazies introduced to me the idea that, if I eat an animal, I'll reincarnate as one and get butchered and eaten in my next life.

Watch Sharkwaters, I stopped eating Shark Fin soup at the numerous banquets I attend and I'm often chastised along the lines of it being disrespectful to the host and that it's there, in front of me, I may as well eat it. I respond that it has to start somewhere.

That same pressure, albeit a variation, I feel, is in place in this particular case as well, it's an expectation.

I actually think some Chinese people get off on cruel and unusual sources of their meat-foods. (I don't get off on it, but I'll still eat the shark fin soup or the force-fed peking duck, they're simply too delicious) I know how shark finning works, they cut off the fin and throw the crippled creature back into the sea.

[Allanea]

Marriage is a lifetime decision. How can you make a good decision unless you get to know a bit of life, first?

In my experience, people can make idiotic life decisions at all age. Proof:

My mother married my father when he was about 40 and she was about 35 (I was born 2 weeks after the wedding). As far as I understand, she regretted it ever since.

[Barringtonia]

So? I fail to see why religion is a bad reason to make a decision (though of course Christianity does not prohibit kissing).

I agree, I'm simply making the distinction.

Homosexuality,

Not a choice

heterosexuality

Not a choice

Orgies,

Fine

consensual incest (provided there are no unhealthy offspring),

Your condition is after the fact.

Polyamoriness,

Fair enough unless forced.

Wearing fursuits into bed,

Sure.

Sex in public,

Sure

Necrophilia (provided the other person consented before their death)

Though I baulk at this one, I'm okay with it if that's your bag.

And, yes, sexual abstinence.

Sure, where it's not an influenced choice based on the expectations of others - I, personally, feel sad when people are constrained in their decisions by others, whether that constraint is passive or aggressive.

I really do think that the morally correct approach is to not care.

Fair enough.

As far as I am concern, your sexual choice (within the bounds of consent-based sexual ethic) is as much worthy of sadness or admiration as your choice of underwear design.

No argument there.

[Allanea]

Not a choice

While sexual orientation is probably not a choice, going out and acting on that orientation definitely is a choice. As an example, I am bisexual - I experience sexual attraction to both females and males, yet I choose not to have sex with males at the current time.

[Gauntleted Fist]

Put it this way :

My gran got married with 20, wished her husband dead for the rest of her life.
My mom got married with barely 21, divorced when 30. Keeps telling me it was the worst thing she's ever done, and keeps telling her children to have as many boyfriends/girlfriends as they can before deciding.
One of my friends got married when 22, divorced when 25.
Another one got married aged 20, seperated when 26 with 3 children... the court battle is epic and still going on.
Another one started getting married aged 19, I think she's just past her 3rd husband now.

Marriage is a lifetime decision. How can you make a good decision unless you get to know a bit of life, first?

Well, if we're doing anecdotal evidence:

Grandmother (Mother's side): Married twice. First at age of sixteen. Husband died of a medical condition. (Married to him around twenty years.)
Re-married around two years after: Second husband died of old age. Married to him circa the same amount of time. (Give or take a few years.)
Has stated that she would have remained with both 'til death, which she did. (She's still alive, just retired last week.)

Grandmother (Father's side): Married at age 20, is now 60, married for 40 years.

Mother/Father: Married age 28/25, haven't divorced yet. (18 years.)

[Cabra West]

Well, if we're doing anecdotal evidence:

Grandmother (Mother's side): Married twice. First at age of sixteen. Husband died of a medical condition. (Married to him around twenty years.)
Re-married around two years after: Second husband died of old age. Married to him circa the same amount of time. (Give or take a few years.)
Has stated that she would have remained with both 'til death, which she did. (She's still alive, just retired last week.)

Grandmother (Father's side): Married at age 20, is now 60, married for 40 years.

Mother/Father: Married age 28/25, haven't divorced yet. (18 years.)

Ok, numbers :

# 33% of all first marriages end in separation or divorce after 10 years (32% of White women, 34% of Hispanic women, and 47% of Black women).
# Divorce is more likely when women marry at a younger age (48% of brides married before age 18 divorce in 10 years, compared to 24% married at age 25 or later)

http://www.psychpage.com/family/mod_couples_thx/cdc.html#Z4

[Gauntleted Fist]

Ok, numbers :

# 33% of all first marriages end in separation or divorce after 10 years (32% of White women, 34% of Hispanic women, and 47% of Black women).
# Divorce is more likely when women marry at a younger age (48% of brides married before age 18 divorce in 10 years, compared to 24% married at age 25 or later)

http://www.psychpage.com/family/mod_couples_thx/cdc.html#Z4

And while those numbers do indeed make an impact, that's not the norm, though the eighteen year old divorce rate is closing in on being the norm.

[Allanea]

Ok, numbers :

# 33% of all first marriages end in separation or divorce after 10 years (32% of White women, 34% of Hispanic women, and 47% of Black women).
# Divorce is more likely when women marry at a younger age (48% of brides married before age 18 divorce in 10 years, compared to 24% married at age 25 or later)

http://www.psychpage.com/family/mod_couples_thx/cdc.html#Z4

1. Human beings aren't statistics. Statistics aren't a useful predictor of a given person's life.

2. This woman is not 18.

[Cabra West]

Ok, numbers :

# 33% of all first marriages end in separation or divorce after 10 years (32% of White women, 34% of Hispanic women, and 47% of Black women).
# Divorce is more likely when women marry at a younger age (48% of brides married before age 18 divorce in 10 years, compared to 24% married at age 25 or later)

http://www.psychpage.com/family/mod_couples_thx/cdc.html#Z4

And while those numbers do indeed make an impact, that's not the norm, though the eighteen year old divorce rate is closing in on being the norm.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I think a 100% increase in divorce rates for a 7-year age gap is quite significant.
I know the lady in question in this thread is pretty much in the middle between the two extremes of this survey, but then 25 and over would still be safer.

[Cabra West]

Ok, numbers :

# 33% of all first marriages end in separation or divorce after 10 years (32% of White women, 34% of Hispanic women, and 47% of Black women).
# Divorce is more likely when women marry at a younger age (48% of brides married before age 18 divorce in 10 years, compared to 24% married at age 25 or later)

http://www.psychpage.com/family/mod_couples_thx/cdc.html#Z4

1. Human beings aren't statistics. Statistics aren't a useful predictor of a given person's life.

2. This woman is not 18.

Ok, so anecdotes are pointless, and actual facts are pointless.
I'm still feeling sorry for her, and the more I think about it, the sadder it makes me.

[Allanea]

And besides, a divorce isn't necessarily a tragedy. People get married, divorced, and remarry again. It's not necessarily OMG AWFUL. We're not Catholics here.

[Hamilay]

People being disabled is not a personal choice. I am sure most disabled people would have been healthy if they had the choice.

I no more feel sad for this girl than I do for people who choose have more sex than I do, or for people who color their cars pink, or for people who choose to spend vast sums of money on miniatures for Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

This, who really cares?

[Gauntleted Fist]

I'm still feeling sorry for her, and the more I think about it, the sadder it makes me.

I don't understand why it makes you sad.

Do you doubt her judgment so much?

[Barringtonia]

I don't understand why it makes you sad.

Do you doubt her judgment so much?

For me, it just does, I've had enormous fun experiencing different partners over time and I feel I've gained good experience in terms of what works and what doesn't - perhaps that experience also constrains me somewhat in terms of forming assumptions.

If nothing else, sexual compatibility is quite important in a relationship, I just feel she's cut herself off from experience for misguided reasons, misguided in my opinion fair enough.

I'm not judging her, I'm just saddened by people who think it's 'worthwhile' or 'special' to abstain until after marriage, such a loss of opportunity.

[Gauntleted Fist]

I don't understand why it makes you sad.

Do you doubt her judgment so much?

For me, it just does, I've had enormous fun experiencing different partners over time and I feel I've gained good experience in terms of what works and what doesn't - perhaps that experience also constrains me somewhat in terms of forming assumptions.

If nothing else, sexual compatibility is quite important in a relationship, I just feel she's cut herself off from experience for misguided reasons, misguided in my opinion fair enough.

I'm not judging her, I'm just saddened by people who think it's 'worthwhile' or 'special' to abstain until after marriage, such a loss of opportunity.

I can understand that viewpoint.

[Antebellum South]

Ok, numbers :

# 33% of all first marriages end in separation or divorce after 10 years (32% of White women, 34% of Hispanic women, and 47% of Black women).
# Divorce is more likely when women marry at a younger age (48% of brides married before age 18 divorce in 10 years, compared to 24% married at age 25 or later)

http://www.psychpage.com/family/mod_couples_thx/cdc.html#Z4

According to the original article cited by your link, brides married between age 20 and 24 have a 29% and 36% divorce rate after 10 and 15 years, compared to 24% and 35% divorce rate after 10 and 15 years achieved by the over-25 cohort. The difference in divorce rates between early-20s marriages and late-20s marriages isn't quite nearly as large as you claim.

[Trilateral Commission]

I don't know. I personally find no "higher ethical purpose" to vegetarianism whatsoever. I'm Chinese (and I delight in consuming animal flesh like one), and I work at an animal testing facility. Double whammy.

That said, I'm thinking of becoming a vegetarian just because certain Hare Krishna crazies introduced to me the idea that, if I eat an animal, I'll reincarnate as one and get butchered and eaten in my next life.

Watch Sharkwaters, I stopped eating Shark Fin soup at the numerous banquets I attend and I'm often chastised along the lines of it being disrespectful to the host and that it's there, in front of me, I may as well eat it. I respond that it has to start somewhere.

That same pressure, albeit a variation, I feel, is in place in this particular case as well, it's an expectation.

Hmm in terms of social pressures around her, I wonder if the greater pressure is for her to abstain from sex, or in fact encouraging her to have sex.