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Forsher
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Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:55 pm

PapaJacky wrote:
Forsher wrote:
Feminism complains about women not being paid as much. Often, they look at job locations not jobs. If most women are on the checkouts they'll have lower average pays because stacking shelves pays more, for example. This is really more a statistical thing that I wanted to point out. In fact, most people would make this error and I probably only identify it because I've had cause to sit down and think about it some more. This paragraph really exists to show you how easily one can create a passage that is critical of feminism. The bolded sentence exists to elevate me over the rest as I bother to point out that this is something feminists do but it is not a flaw of feminism. (In other words, bias is really easy to create.)


On a semi-related note; http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf , women are being paid less as a cashier than men are :lol:


It's 'cause they're ugly.

Seriously, I'm not surprised. I've always wondered in a lot of these situations whether being more numerous means you'll get paid less. That said, I believe a common explanation is that women are more accepting of their pay packages (less likely to negotiate). I've also heard that men are more likely to exaggerate earnings in surveys than women but that was in a different context and I've never heard it as an explanation for the wage gap.

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Jinos
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Ex-Nation

Postby Jinos » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:05 pm

Women have pushed back against traditional gender roles, and opportunities for women are wider than ever. But men still cling to traditional masculinity, and they’re still punished if they step outside of it:


Women of course, play no role in reinforcing traditional stereotypes of masculinity and gender roles :roll:
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PapaJacky
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Democratic Socialists

Postby PapaJacky » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:05 pm

Forsher wrote:
PapaJacky wrote:
On a semi-related note; http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf , women are being paid less as a cashier than men are :lol:


It's 'cause they're ugly.

Seriously, I'm not surprised. I've always wondered in a lot of these situations whether being more numerous means you'll get paid less. That said, I believe a common explanation is that women are more accepting of their pay packages (less likely to negotiate). I've also heard that men are more likely to exaggerate earnings in surveys than women but that was in a different context and I've never heard it as an explanation for the wage gap.


Yeah, that's about the only argument I've heard on that issue that I can't invalidate mostly due to lack of statistical evidence in general. Overall though, my findings were that even though women work on average 30 minutes less a day than men when working a full time job, that pay difference, assuming equal pay, would amount to women earning 93% of what men do, yet in most of the occupations I've crunched numbers for (note it'd be easier if the BLS released that report as a .xls), the median pay difference is less than 93%, which indicates that the pay is not equal on the offset.

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Forsher
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Founded: Jan 30, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Forsher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:09 pm

PapaJacky wrote:
Forsher wrote:
It's 'cause they're ugly.

Seriously, I'm not surprised. I've always wondered in a lot of these situations whether being more numerous means you'll get paid less. That said, I believe a common explanation is that women are more accepting of their pay packages (less likely to negotiate). I've also heard that men are more likely to exaggerate earnings in surveys than women but that was in a different context and I've never heard it as an explanation for the wage gap.


Yeah, that's about the only argument I've heard on that issue that I can't invalidate mostly due to lack of statistical evidence in general. Overall though, my findings were that even though women work on average 30 minutes less a day than men when working a full time job, that pay difference, assuming equal pay, would amount to women earning 93% of what men do, yet in most of the occupations I've crunched numbers for (note it'd be easier if the BLS released that report as a .xls), the median pay difference is less than 93%, which indicates that the pay is not equal on the offset.


If women were working the basic usual and that extra thirty minutes was on overtime pay would that change things? Or did you take that into account already?

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Gauntleted Fist
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Ex-Nation

Postby Gauntleted Fist » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:Greater than zero chance of what?

Gee I don't know. What was it you were describing in the post I was responding to?

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Ulvena
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ulvena » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:19 pm

I'll just say this: Feminism is not the answer to promoting gender equality.
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Conformal Veal Theory
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Founded: Sep 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Conformal Veal Theory » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:20 pm

Gauntleted Fist wrote:Gee I don't know. What was it you were describing in the post I was responding to?


See that's why I was confused. Did you mean non-zero chance of people advocating Nazism or a non-zero chance of Nazism being true. The reason I'm confused is that you seem to think that the probability of people advocating Nazism is extremely small. I disagree. You can find lots of people supporting it.

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PapaJacky
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Democratic Socialists

Postby PapaJacky » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:20 pm

Forsher wrote:
PapaJacky wrote:
Yeah, that's about the only argument I've heard on that issue that I can't invalidate mostly due to lack of statistical evidence in general. Overall though, my findings were that even though women work on average 30 minutes less a day than men when working a full time job, that pay difference, assuming equal pay, would amount to women earning 93% of what men do, yet in most of the occupations I've crunched numbers for (note it'd be easier if the BLS released that report as a .xls), the median pay difference is less than 93%, which indicates that the pay is not equal on the offset.


If women were working the basic usual and that extra thirty minutes was on overtime pay would that change things? Or did you take that into account already?


It would change things, however I can't do much in-depth analysis on it as the BLS doesn't provide statistics for overtime pay-use by gender. However, the average man in 2008 spent 8.3 hours a day working compared to the average woman who spent 7.7 hours a day working (both full time workers), assuming equal wages of $8, the man should be paid 1.5 hours of over time (worth $18) in that week, which bumps that man's weekly earnings to $338. A woman working 7.7 hours a day would not receive overtime in the course of the week but should end up earning $308 regardless. The gap between those two was 91%, lower than my first estimate, but still higher than the real median pay difference.

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Conformal Veal Theory
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Founded: Sep 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Conformal Veal Theory » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:21 pm

Giovenith wrote:And no, the idea of men being obsolete is absolutely ridiculous.


Why?

I mean, I agree, I just wish to see why you think it's ridiculous.

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The God-Realm
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Ex-Nation

Postby The God-Realm » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:23 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:
Giovenith wrote:And no, the idea of men being obsolete is absolutely ridiculous.


Why?

I mean, I agree, I just wish to see why you think it's ridiculous.

Some women are not lesbian.
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Esternial wrote:
The God-Realm wrote:No

people who qq over losing a gf over a small penis size are insecure and need to check themselves

Before they wreck themselves?

Or their ex' car.

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Conformal Veal Theory
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Ex-Nation

Postby Conformal Veal Theory » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:23 pm

The God-Realm wrote:Some women are not lesbian.


The purpose of men is for women to enjoy sex?

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Alowwvia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Alowwvia » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:24 pm

Everything sucks for everybody and everything is terrible and everything always will be.
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Norstal
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Ex-Nation

Postby Norstal » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:24 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/10/01/the-myth-of-male-decline/

Interesting discussion there. The article itself asserts that the idea that men are worse off now than they used to be is largely a myth. Any circumstances where they actually are worse off are explained solely by greater competition with women.

The comments section is even more interesting. There is a very heated discussion there about whether or not men are obsolete.

So what do you think? Are men really worse off compared to the 50's or is this a myth? On a related note, will improvements in reproductive technology make men obsolete, or is this a paranoid fantasy?

Interesting and strange stuff one can find on the internet.

It's a myth. On the other hand, I would like to see more female engineers. Seriously women. Y u no become engineers. It's a sausagefest out here.
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Prosus Tempore
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Founded: Aug 18, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Prosus Tempore » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:25 pm

Genivaria wrote:
AETEN II wrote:-shrugs-
Well there is the biological fact that we live slightly shorter lives.

Compared to.....?


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Not Safe For Work
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Founded: Jul 20, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Not Safe For Work » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:25 pm

Ulvena wrote:I'll just say this: Feminism is not the answer to promoting gender equality.


Actually, by definition, it pretty much is.

It's got to be a better alternative than the status quo, anyway.
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Coveltia
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Founded: Sep 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Coveltia » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:26 pm

Okay, this entire argument over whether men or women have it worse is complete bollocks.

Alowwvia wrote:Everything sucks for everybody and everything is terrible and everything always will be.


Ja!

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The God-Realm
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Ex-Nation

Postby The God-Realm » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:27 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:
The God-Realm wrote:Some women are not lesbian.


The purpose of men is for women to enjoy sex?

Yes.
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Esternial wrote:
The God-Realm wrote:No

people who qq over losing a gf over a small penis size are insecure and need to check themselves

Before they wreck themselves?

Or their ex' car.

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Dyakovo
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Ex-Nation

Postby Dyakovo » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:28 pm

Genivaria wrote:
AETEN II wrote:-shrugs-
Well there is the biological fact that we live slightly shorter lives.

Compared to.....?

The Galápagos tortoise.
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Seriong
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Ex-Nation

Postby Seriong » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:32 pm

Are men worse off?
No.
We live longer, we have better health care, etc.

Norstal wrote:
Conformal Veal Theory wrote:http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2012/10/01/the-myth-of-male-decline/

Interesting discussion there. The article itself asserts that the idea that men are worse off now than they used to be is largely a myth. Any circumstances where they actually are worse off are explained solely by greater competition with women.

The comments section is even more interesting. There is a very heated discussion there about whether or not men are obsolete.

So what do you think? Are men really worse off compared to the 50's or is this a myth? On a related note, will improvements in reproductive technology make men obsolete, or is this a paranoid fantasy?

Interesting and strange stuff one can find on the internet.

It's a myth. On the other hand, I would like to see more female engineers. Seriously women. Y u no become engineers. It's a sausagefest out here.


I like being bisexual because of this, I can go into any field, and regardless of the distribution of the genders, I'm okay!
Last edited by Seriong on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Perhaps you've heard that chlorine is poisonous and sodium is a volatile explosive?

Drawkland wrote:I think it delegitimizes true cases of sexual assault, like real dangerous cases being dismissed, "Oh it's only sexual assault"
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Conformal Veal Theory
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Ex-Nation

Postby Conformal Veal Theory » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:34 pm

The God-Realm wrote:Yes.


So gay men are worthless?

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The God-Realm
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Ex-Nation

Postby The God-Realm » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:36 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:
The God-Realm wrote:Yes.


So gay men are worthless?

No. Women can masturbate to them if that is their thing.
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Esternial wrote:
The God-Realm wrote:No

people who qq over losing a gf over a small penis size are insecure and need to check themselves

Before they wreck themselves?

Or their ex' car.

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Seriong
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Founded: Aug 12, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Seriong » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:36 pm

Conformal Veal Theory wrote:
The God-Realm wrote:Yes.


So gay men are worthless?


No one is worthless, some people are just more fit to be 'processed food product - hotdog'
Lunalia wrote:
The Independent States wrote:Um, perhaps you haven't heard that mercury poisons people? :palm:

Perhaps you've heard that chlorine is poisonous and sodium is a volatile explosive?

Drawkland wrote:I think it delegitimizes true cases of sexual assault, like real dangerous cases being dismissed, "Oh it's only sexual assault"
Like racism. If everything's "racist," then you can't tell what really is racist.

Murkwood wrote:As a trans MtF Bi Pansexual Transautistic CAMAB Demiplatonic Asensual Better-Abled Planetkin Singlet Afro-Centric Vegan Socialist Therian, I'm immune from criticism.

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Ulvena
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Ex-Nation

Postby Ulvena » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:38 pm

Not Safe For Work wrote:
Ulvena wrote:I'll just say this: Feminism is not the answer to promoting gender equality.


Actually, by definition, it pretty much is.

It's got to be a better alternative than the status quo, anyway.


So you want to focus only on the problems with one gender? You realize that men get more prison time than women for the same crime? Women can wrongfully frame men for sexual harassment at the workplace while a man cannot do the same with a woman? If anything, the status quo is better than what the feminists call a "Patriarchy." Which doesn't even exist any more.
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Tunasai
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tunasai » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:39 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Mr Bananagrabber wrote:I'd rather be alive now than fifty years ago. :unsure:

^This. Life is good nowadays.


ehhhh that could be debated
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Genivaria
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:41 pm

Tunasai wrote:
Genivaria wrote:^This. Life is good nowadays.


ehhhh that could be debated

In the first world.
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