The Pagan Discussion Thread

[Forster Keys]

I find it intriguing. I was brought up with a lot of Celtic Pagan or pseudo-Pagan ideas. I wouldn't call myself one now, but those ideas still resonate.

[The Carlisle]

I was always curious about paganism and other religions of the sort. I always wondered about spirits and I always believed that animals had souls. But I still believe in a supreme being and that we all go to the same afterlife when we die and then reincarnate after some time. Is this pagan in any sense?

Also, why do you think people look down upon paganism?

[Genivaria]

I was raised a Druid, my parents were involved in the movement in the 60's and 70's (my parents were nearing 50 when I was born). But even with this, I would have found Druidry, its just home.

My husband, H-Alba, converted to Druidry (before meeting me). He said it is because he just felt comfortable in the pagan world, with druidry being closest to his belief.

Oh, really? I mean, I know some people must have been raised in these religions, but followers of them are just so rare (and so recent) that I didn't really expect to find a second-generation follower here.

I've always thought it was the relative amount of freedom that attracted others to Paganism and Wicca, I myself respect Wicca for that reason.

[Faolinn]

For me it was the very personal and free nature of modern pagan belief. I mean if you look at even the most organized reconstructionist groups it's still a very open and personal thing. In ancient times it was organized, but not organized in the same way Christianity for example is. Anyway, in ancient times many people had their patron deities and charms their used to gain their aid. Another thing about is that it seems to encourage meritorious action and heroism over mere compliance and subtle piety. Your actions matter more than how many times you pray a day, whether you attend church every Sunday, or even how you believe. Everything from the practice of magic to belief itself is very personal. Not in a make your own God kind of way, but rather it's open to many interpretations and forms of practice.

[Cameroi]

i feel some of the same problems exist with "paganisms" as do with monotheisms. i believe there's more to everything then what we see when we look at and that there are all sorts of neat fun invisible things, that are neither physical nor imaginary. but same as monotheistic beliefs, when we start trying to name invisible things, and what they do/are like, this is just ourselves or other humans having come up with this, not those things themselves. i do believe there are species spirits and spiritness of all kinds of things, but not in projecting our own fantasies about how anything aware of its existence can only act.

i met someone not too long ago who described her own beliefs somewhat similarly. she came up with the label: "agnostic paganism". i like that. pretty much makes sense to me. though i don't rule out that there could also be some one something (a "the" god) "bigger" then every other nonphysical thing.

i just totally believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with not pretending to know what we don't know. nothing wrong with not HAVING to "know" nor claim to know.
its nice to be nice to things you don't know. you don't have to call this any kind of worship to just be nice to invisible things.

i do, when i'm where i can find any kind of space for it at all, make a kind of alter/tokanoma, with plushies, little animal figures, even my catlike fur head, when there's room for it, and put little cups of water for them, things like that. just being nice to the idea of invisible things. not like praying to them or expecting anything back.

[Forster Keys]

i feel some of the same problems exist with "paganisms" as do with monotheisms. i believe there's more to everything then what we see when we look at and that there are all sorts of neat fun invisible things, that are neither physical nor imaginary. but same as monotheistic beliefs, when we start trying to name invisible things, and what they do/are like, this is just ourselves or other humans having come up with this, not those things themselves. i do believe there are species spirits and spiritness of all kinds of things, but not in projecting our own fantasies about how anything aware of its existence can only act.

i met someone not too long ago who described her own beliefs somewhat similarly. she came up with the label: "agnostic paganism". i like that. pretty much makes sense to me. though i don't rule out that there could also be some one something (a "the" god) "bigger" then every other nonphysical thing.

i just totally believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with not pretending to know what we don't know. nothing wrong with not HAVING to "know" nor claim to know.
its nice to be nice to things you don't know. you don't have to call this any kind of worship to just be nice to invisible things.

i do, when i'm where i can find any kind of space for it at all, make a kind of alter/tokanoma, with plushies, little animal figures, even my catlike fur head, when there's room for it, and put little cups of water for them, things like that. just being nice to the idea of invisible things. not like praying to them or expecting anything back.

I'm sort of the same, but more of an agnostic pantheist.

[Samuraikoku]

As you gave me that quiz online, I came out as Asatru.

FOR RUSS! FOR THE WOLFTIME!

[Cill Airne]

I was always curious about paganism and other religions of the sort. I always wondered about spirits and I always believed that animals had souls. But I still believe in a supreme being and that we all go to the same afterlife when we die and then reincarnate after some time. Is this pagan in any sense?

Also, why do you think people look down upon paganism?

Actually, many Druids believe that upon death we are born into the Otherworld, where we live our lives until we are reborn into this world. So yes, your belief is accepted amongst some pagans.

I believe it is because of the Abrahamic religions, and I mean them no offence. They are the primary reason behind the witch hunts, de-paganisation of Europe, &c. Those negative connotations of witchcraft and paganism carried into the modern world, and the results of which is a negative view of Paganism due to the past connotations and stereotypes.

[Socialist EU]

Oh, really? I mean, I know some people must have been raised in these religions, but followers of them are just so rare (and so recent) that I didn't really expect to find a second-generation follower here.

I've always thought it was the relative amount of freedom that attracted others to Paganism and Wicca, I myself respect Wicca for that reason.

I've known a Pagan to talk about wedlock, that doesn't sound like freedom to me.

[Pope Joan]

Do you include neo-Egyptian? I've run into a bunch of those lately.

Kemetism.

[Czechanada]

Does Romuva count as pagan?

[Cill Airne]

Do you include neo-Egyptian? I've run into a bunch of those lately.

Kemetism.

I would include that in Kemetism. It is to my knowledge kemetism describes any revival of Egyptian religion.

Does Romuva count as pagan?

Yes, Romuva is Lithuanian paganism, to my knowledge.

[Cill Airne]

I'm rather surprised we only have one wiccan, i'd expect more.

[Faolinn]

I'm rather surprised we only have one wiccan, i'd expect more.

I'm rather surprised myself but I'm not complaining.About the only thing I don't like about it really is how it seems to control the collective consciousness of much of modern paganism.

[Cill Airne]

I'm rather surprised we only have one wiccan, i'd expect more.

I'm rather surprised myself but I'm not complaining.About the only thing I don't like about it really is how it seems to control the collective consciousness of much of modern paganism.

I do agree, I do find it a bit of a nuisance when people associate paganism with Wicca only, and tend to forget about the various other traditions (or how people assume that if you are a Celtic pagan, you are a Celtic Wiccan, &c.). But, I do find it surprising there are more of the other traditions here than Wicca.

[Vousielle]

All the pagans I know are awesome, what's up with that.

[Multiflow]

I am ... hmm closest description that fits is a philosopher. I was raised with a Judeo-Christian background, which makes it hard for me to describe many of the things that make sense to me. My beliefs fall closest into a positive agnostic area. Agnostics traditionally are viewed as fence sitters between is there a god(s) or atheism (not), with more facing from the not side. Or better way to say, fence sitting with arguing for the not. That may be more of a statement on the social culture that they are in, and who they discuss with, then their actual beliefs though. I believe in the idea of spirits at least being a personification of something, whether or not they are actual people, I have not communicated with one directly. I think that bigger spirits garner the title of god in various areas. Eventually leading to an idea of a spirit for the verse, whether uni- or multi-, which most of the monotheistics claiming that as the God.
I believe in many things, partly so that I look for them, not that I am expecting them. I have a tendency of, at least personally, being able to explain things from many different directions. Spiritually, scientifically, magically, religiously, or at least in the sense of a consistent framework.
One of the biggest difficulties I have is trying to discuss what I sense of things, and not finding the words, or finding that the words muddy the view. Partly this is because by discussing many of the things in my head in a spiritual sense, I feel that I will either skew others view, or that I will be (not literally, but close) burned at the stake, even in today's world. So a lot of times I abstract what I am trying to convey, or just show a piece of it.
The other difficulty I have, is when I do find people who are willing to talk, they seem to be ... not the right people to talk to.
Hmm okay bit of a blurb, sorry. Well, a description I have used for myself, though it may be inaccurate or wrong, is a quantum druid.

[Korintar]

However, I think its because many pagans are not open to strangers, it just seems like theres less around you then there are on the internet.

I am Christian, born and raised and contemplating theological seminary. I noticed this too. My pagan and Hindu friends are not all that willing to discuss their faith or tell me about what they believe, even when I explicitly state that I have no desire or intention to convert them, that I am just simply interested in hearing the story of their faith journey and how they understand the world, recognizing that there is a huge diversity within the various religions outside of the Abrahamic tradition. I know one of friends said that she was not really comfortable discussing her faith with me unless it was because I had the intention of converting. When I told her that I am happy where I am at, but that I simply enjoy learning about different perspectives and engaging in interfaith dialogue, she ended the conversation real quick. I guess the hostility frequently shown to pagans might be the reason, however I have no malice towards any faith communities- they have done me no wrong, so why should I express malice? It is contrary to every spiritual path to show malice towards those that have shown you no harm, so why do so? Engaging the questions raised by various faith traditions and their points of disagreement and agreement, with varying shades of meaning, with Christian orthodoxy yields important theological insights and allows me a deeper understanding of my faith through discussing the big questions of free will, the existence of the divine, nature of the afterlife, whether morality is absolute vs relative and how these understandings of reality play out in everyday life with different people.

[Faolinn]

However, I think its because many pagans are not open to strangers, it just seems like theres less around you then there are on the internet.

I am Christian, born and raised and contemplating theological seminary. I noticed this too. My pagan and Hindu friends are not all that willing to discuss their faith or tell me about what they believe, even when I explicitly state that I have no desire or intention to convert them, that I am just simply interested in hearing the story of their faith journey and how they understand the world, recognizing that there is a huge diversity within the various religions outside of the Abrahamic tradition. I know one of friends said that she was not really comfortable discussing her faith with me unless it was because I had the intention of converting. When I told her that I am happy where I am at, but that I simply enjoy learning about different perspectives and engaging in interfaith dialogue, she ended the conversation real quick. I guess the hostility frequently shown to pagans might be the reason, however I have no malice towards any faith communities- they have done me no wrong, so why should I express malice? It is contrary to every spiritual path to show malice towards those that have shown you no harm, so why do so? Engaging the questions raised by various faith traditions and their points of disagreement and agreement, with varying shades of meaning, with Christian orthodoxy yields important theological insights and allows me a deeper understanding of my faith through discussing the big questions of free will, the existence of the divine, nature of the afterlife, whether morality is absolute vs relative and how these understandings of reality play out in everyday life with different people.

There was a time when those who revered the old deities were hunted and slain long before the inquisition and quite some time after the mass conversion of so many people. Even Christians who dabbled in Judeo-Christian magic and mysticism had to be careful. We may be protected as the equals of Christians under the law in many places now, but there are still those who hate us deeply.Some are more afraid of us than hateful.They do not understand what we do, why we do it, or what we believe.I hate to sound paranoid but the fundamentalism in some parts of this country makes me want to steer clear of the south and never move there. There are still very real threats of violence and forms of discrimination against us. It may not be a mass conspiracy or outright inquisition, but we must still be careful in many places. Some times it's not even threats of violence or anything of the sort, it's mockery we fear. There are some people who just enjoy making fun of us whether they have some form of agenda or not. Of course like every group, we have some nut jobs and it pains me deeply whenever they make a show of it. Unfortunately some people make them out to be our spokespersons when they are far from it. Part of this sadly stems from the closest thing we have to violent sectarian conflicts called "witch wars" by some are less like wars and more like theological debates taken to a ridiculous level or personal disagreements taken to a new level. As far as I know, no one has ever actually been killed in the course of a "witch war", but some foolishness comes out of them is long remembered and embarrassing for the lot of us regardless of what tradition we follow. Our reasons for secrecy however, are mostly based around fear for our safety and our mental health.

[Korintar]

There was a time when those who revered the old deities were hunted and slain long before the inquisition and quite some time after the mass conversion of so many people. Even Christians who dabbled in Judeo-Christian magic and mysticism had to be careful. We may be protected as the equals of Christians under the law in many places now, but there are still those who hate us deeply.Some are more afraid of us than hateful.They do not understand what we do, why we do it, or what we believe.I hate to sound paranoid but the fundamentalism in some parts of this country makes me want to steer clear of the south and never move there. There are still very real threats of violence and forms of discrimination against us. It may not be a mass conspiracy or outright inquisition, but we must still be careful in many places. Some times it's not even threats of violence or anything of the sort, it's mockery we fear. There are some people who just enjoy making fun of us whether they have some form of agenda or not. Of course like every group, we have some nut jobs and it pains me deeply whenever they make a show of it. Unfortunately some people them out to be our spokespersons when they are far from it. Part of this sadly stems from the closest thing we have to violent sectarian conflicts called "witch wars" by some are less like wars and more like theological debates taken to a ridiculous level or personal disagreements take to a new level. As far as I know, no one has ever actually been killed in the course of a "witch war", but some foolishness comes out them is long remembered and embarrassing for the lot of us regardless of what tradition we follow. Our reasons for secrecy however, is mostly based around fear for our safety and our mental health.

I am well aware of that history. Looking back, it is painfully obvious to even the most devout of Christians that was the antithesis of the Great Commission that Christ called the Church to. Yes, Christians, such as myself, are called to make disciples of all nations, but there was nothing in the teachings of St Paul or Jesus Christ that could be construed in such a way to justify such horrific brutality and blatantly aggressive behavior. There is nothing in Just War Theology that could possibly make it acceptable. However, it was a different time where trial by ordeal was order of the day in Europe. I understand how you feel about the nutjobs being made out to be the spokespersons for your faith. Your reference to the South and fundamentalist Christianity is one such example. It annoys me and deeply wounds me that people like Pope Benedict XVI, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson, or, going back to an earlier era, people like that jackass Toquemada supposedly speak for believers like me. Yes, there are some things where I am more inclined to agree with the aforementioned people than I am to agree with somebody like Bishop Spong, namely that I believe the miracles were exactly what the writers said they were- miracles, and that the Early Church did not mince words when they spoke of the physical resurrection of the dead or the virgin birth, however where I disagree with the more conservative Christians is ethics- how to live out the gospel. I am a live and let live person who is prone to socialistic politics. I find beauty in all the world's religions. While I put my trust in my beliefs being true, contrary to what some people think, claiming faith in a religion is not to claim the ultimate knowledge of the true nature of the cosmos! I have sometimes asked myself, "What if I am wrong, and I, in all probability, am? What is my fate then?" I figure if I live the life I am called to by my understanding of my faith- one of universal love and tolerance for everybody regardless of race or creed or sex or any human constructed divisor- then I am in good shape, no matter what the truth may be.

I can understand your concern for your safety and mental well being. People can be cruel and intolerant sometimes if you even deviate in the slightest from their typical notions about what people are supposed to be like. I was bullied in my middle school years for various reasons. Some of it was because I was bookish, and I had emotional issues and was socially retarded, for lack of a better term, and I did not have the same interests as the vast majority of my peers. Now, if I were to add on top of that, say, a different race or ethnicity, say Bosnian (I picked Bosnian because there is a significant amount of tension and bigotry between the predominantly German/Scandinavian families and the newer Bosnian immigrant families in my hometown), or if I was pagan, then I'd probably keep a very low profile too. I know that mainline protestantism is going through its own version of what you call a "witch war" right now over gay marriage and, at a deeper level, the degree to which the Church should take a stand on various societal issues, which societal issues are important matters of faith, and what position should be taken. These are, indeed, intense struggles that have split denominations, destroyed families, and sown the seeds of animosity and strife.

[Condunum]

So out of curiosity, since I noticed a number of the pagans here are of this type: What is Druidry?

[Korintar]

What are some of the big ethical issues or differences between the various Pagan faiths? I know that, stereotypically, most Pagans have a strong concern for environmental issues and that it seems like Asatru and Norse Reconstructionism has a noticeably more conservative bent than most strains of Wicca, which I gather is a more eclectic faith.

[1337 G4M3R5]

I had to vote other, partly because I cannot reconcile any of my beliefs with any one religion.

As a matter of fact, I dislike the idea of organized religion as a whole. I feel that spirituality is an individual experience, and codifying how you may interact with your own spirituality so one experience is "wrong" and another is "right" is ultimately harmful to the individual.

I still respect the right of religion to exist, I just don't like it much.

But I have managed to develop some individual "pillars of faith" as it were. Beliefs basic to my spirituality, though I am far from being finished developing it. (spoiler'd for length)

First

When I was younger I felt a lot of pressure to have a "god" of some kind...so I subscribed to the idea of gods as archetypes, and claimed Thor and Athena as my patron deities...But that never felt right to me. I don't honestly believe in gods/goddesses. (though the archetypes are still useful in understanding stories passed down to us from history)

Rather, I have come to believe that if there is a "divine" then it exists in all things. Man and beast, animate and inanimate...all there is has a spirit. When you respect that spirit, and seek to understand it then you will come to exist in harmony with it. A sort of symbiosis that is, by definition, mutually beneficial.

So I give respect to the spirits I encounter. I care for my things, I care for the people around me, and I care for the creatures I come across. In return, they care for me.

Secondly, I believe in the supremacy of truth. The idea that honesty, and a desire to seek the truth are the highest virtues.

I hold that the workings of the universe are separate from myself, that even when I die the universe will continue on. (for a time, or forever...who knows?)

Everything that exists is part of the universe, and that includes the spirit. So there must be rules that govern the spirit, just as there are rules governing physics. But none of us knows all the rules. So each of us has a limited and unique perspective on the true nature of the universe, colored by our own experiences.

When we come together and discuss these perspectives, we expand our understanding of the universe. So long as we are honest with one another, and with ourselves, we will always come away from such experiences more enlightened than before. Closer to understanding the true nature of our existence.

Thus it is imperative that I question everything, including my own beliefs. It is also imperative that I never lie regarding my understanding of the universe, not to others, and especially not to myself.

It would be so much easier for me to believe "Jesus saves," people would be more accepting of me. I'd probably be better equipped to find work, friends, maybe even lovers. I might even convince myself that I really believed it, that there is an afterlife and that I would be going there.(which would obviously be a great comfort) But it would be a lie, because I don't believe that and claming that I do would lead me away from the truth and my own spiritual growth.

Third

I believe that these beliefs can, and must, change as time goes on.

Why should I hold on to an idea when I have learned that it is not an accurate portrayal of reality?

Would I not be better off embracing ideas that enrich my life and casting away the detritus that holds me back from peace?

If I must die, then at the very least I would like my life to be enjoyable and peaceful.

One final note...

I have no idea about an afterlife.

Does one exist?

Maybe? I've seen some strange things, but I'm not certain I can honestly say that they make me think I will continue after bodily death.

Though at the very least, I do believe my spirit will return to the universe.

And possibly, one day, that spiritual energy may return to physical existence...though whether that is me, or another person...

Honestly...I won't know until it happens (or doesn't).

[Tamriela]

Tengrism

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengrism

Turkic deity.

[Vecherd]

I am member of a Àsatru organization. Can say I'm too religious though.