Omar Khadr

[Germanic Templars]

I am troubled by the idea of executing him for being brainwashed, but at the same time I doubt the practicality of letting him go. Keep him in jail until he no longer represents a threat to society seems to be the only humane option and his case can be used as a demonstration of how brutal the terrorists are and how humane the West is.

Then do what I say friend, solitary confinement. Keeps the baddies to rot away, without killing them or putting them out on the street. Even better, they suffer through isolation.

[Ostroeuropa]

Fair point, but he's also a fifteen year old in one of the most ignorant places on the planet.

The mens rea for murder generally requires that someone intentionally conducts themselves in a manner in which they know a human being will be killed, or has a high likelihood of it.

It seems that he willingly threw the grenade at the soldier. That doesn't seem like an accident sort of deal.

Depending on the extent of the propoganda, self-defence is a possibility.
"the murkans are gonna kill all the arabs, arm yourself!"

Remember, self-defence doesn't require that the ideas you act on be TRUE, just believed by you at the time.

EXAMPLE:
A dude is threatening to shoot me.
I shoot him first.
Later it is discovered his gun had no bullets. This does not alter the fact that at the time I thought he was gonna shoot me.

[Typhlochactas]

Fair point, but he's also a fifteen year old in one of the most ignorant places on the planet.

This can absolve him of some of the blame, but not of our responsibility to protect others from him.
In fact, the issue becomes, is he still ignorant.
If he can demonstrate some understanding of actions/atonement and pass parole, I have no objection to his release.
But if he is still a danger, he should be treated as such.

I agree with what you posted earlier. He should serve until 2013 and then get paroled or not.

[Sulamalik]

I'd say he's done that and more. He's been brutally tortured for ten years. He's apologized to Speer's widow. He's seen his hopes rise as CSIS arrives to ask him some questions, then fall when he realizes that they don't want to get him out of there.

Once again, please elaborate on torture. This is the third time I've asked you to elaborate on what you mean; I'm really hoping that you don't ignore me again.

Soliders tightly tied a bag over his head, giving him a fear of suffocation. They held barking dogs near him, and they threatened to rape him.

[Typhlochactas]

Fair point, but he's also a fifteen year old in one of the most ignorant places on the planet.

The mens rea for murder generally requires that someone intentionally conducts themselves in a manner in which they know a human being will be killed, or has a high likelihood of it.

It seems that he willingly threw the grenade at the soldier. That doesn't seem like an accident sort of deal.

I didn't call it an accident.

[Caninope]

The mens rea for murder generally requires that someone intentionally conducts themselves in a manner in which they know a human being will be killed, or has a high likelihood of it.

It seems that he willingly threw the grenade at the soldier. That doesn't seem like an accident sort of deal.

Depending on the extent of the propoganda, self-defence is a possibility.
"the murkans are gonna kill all the arabs, arm yourself!"

Remember, self-defence doesn't require that the ideas you act on be TRUE, just believed by you at the time.

Correct. However, a court would probably strike down that argument, as he had took up (figurative) arms before he had done the deed. He was already a soldier, if I'm understanding what I'm reading.

[Arumdaum]

You guys don't seem to get the question.

WHY IS THAT GLORIOUS?

Why is killing the enemy glorious?

Because it is.

If you were part of Al Qaeda and killed a lot of American soldiers, would you still consider it glorious?

[Sulamalik]

Because it is.

If you were part of Al Qaeda and killed a lot of American soldiers, would you still consider it glorious?

If I was part of Al Qaeda I'm pretty sure my definition of glory would be killing American soliders.

[Ostroeuropa]

Because it is.

If you were part of Al Qaeda and killed a lot of American soldiers, would you still consider it glorious?

Comparing the police to criminals.
It can be glorious to put a bunch of criminals in small boxes with iron bars, if a non-authorized individual did that, it'd be awful, probably.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Have him serve his goddamn time.

[Arumdaum]

If you were part of Al Qaeda and killed a lot of American soldiers, would you still consider it glorious?

If I was part of Al Qaeda I'm pretty sure my definition of glory would be killing American soliders.

Eh, true. I was asking more though whether he'd still consider it glorious.

[Caninope]

Once again, please elaborate on torture. This is the third time I've asked you to elaborate on what you mean; I'm really hoping that you don't ignore me again.

Soliders tightly tied a bag over his head, giving him a fear of suffocation. They held barking dogs near him, and they threatened to rape him.

1. They never threatened to rape him. They (falsely) told him of detainees who had been raped. There is a bit of a difference.
2. Once again, abusive but not torturous. That tightly held bag comes closest to torture. All the same, this only happened while he was at Bagram. This doesn't mean the OP's continued claims that he was brutally tortured for 10 years.

[Arumdaum]

If you were part of Al Qaeda and killed a lot of American soldiers, would you still consider it glorious?

Comparing the police to criminals.
It can be glorious to put a bunch of criminals in small boxes with iron bars, if a non-authorized individual did that, it'd be awful, probably.

Eh, not relevant to my point.

I was asking if he'd still consider that glorious, since the "enemy" is still being killed.

[Tlaceceyaya]

He was legally considered to be a minor by the US government when he killed the soldier in the firefight. He was subjected to brainwashing before Speer died and torture after. Heinous torture. For ten years.

Please do elaborate on the heinous torture.

While it wouldn't be wrong to say that he was emotionally abused, given the solitary confinement he was continually kept in, please do elaborate on that heinous torture.

Okay.
Threatened with rape.
Promising that he will go home.
Threatening him with more permanent incarceration.
Denial of surgery for his eye.
Refusal of pain medication.
Had his hands tied above a door frame for hours.
Sprayed with cold water.
Covered with a bag over his head and threatened with military dogs.
Farted on.
Forced to do heavy lifting while his injured shoulder was causing him pain.
Forced to urinate and defecate on himself.
His interrogator for that part plead guilty to torturing detainees and even killing a wrongfully accused man with his torture techniques.

He was singled out for the most difficult labour and taunted by american soldiers.
When he was transferred to Guantanamo, he was outfitted with gear to ensure full sensory deprivation and then kicked repeatedly.
He was not allowed to speak with a lawyer for two years.
Three weeks before being visited by CSIS, he was deprived of sleep and constantly moved around.
One of his cell mates in 2003 said that he would often return to his cell crying and hide in a corner.
Spat on by a military interrogator who tore out some of his hair and threatened to send him to a country where he would be tortured even more than he already was and raped.
Short shackled until he soiled himself.
Dragged him across the floor when it was covered in his own urine and pine oil and left in those filthy clothes for two days.
Transferred to solitary confinement for a month in an empty, windowless cell.
When he confessed to CSIS that he had lied to american troops to stop them from torturing him further, they accused him of lying and left him in tears.
Suffered from delusions, hallucinations, intense paranoia and suicidal behaviour.
Participated in a hunger strike for 15 days. When he collapsed from weakness when leaving the hospital, he was repeatedly kicked and assaulted by military police.
Another inmate wrote down in a journal that Omar had thrown up blood and was unconscious in his cell.
Diagnosed with PTSD.
When he showed that he distrusted his military lawyers and called his guards idiots, he was sent to an isolation cell.
Was put into the harshest part of Guantanamo for disciplinary reasons shortly after speaking with his mother for the first time.
His items were seized because he wasn't allowed to read a Lord of the Rings screenplay.
He was ordered to stop playing chess and dominoes with his attorneys.
Assessed by a psychologist who stated that he could not establish trust because of how much he had been abused.

[Sulamalik]

Please do elaborate on the heinous torture.

While it wouldn't be wrong to say that he was emotionally abused, given the solitary confinement he was continually kept in, please do elaborate on that heinous torture.

Okay.
Threatened with rape.
Promising that he will go home.
Threatening him with more permanent incarceration.
Denial of surgery for his eye.
Refusal of pain medication.
Had his hands tied above a door frame for hours.
Sprayed with cold water.
Covered with a bag over his head and threatened with military dogs.
Farted on.
Forced to do heavy lifting while his injured shoulder was causing him pain.
Forced to urinate and defecate on himself.
His interrogator for that part plead guilty to torturing detainees and even killing a wrongfully accused man with his torture techniques.

He was singled out for the most difficult labour and taunted by american soldiers.
When he was transferred to Guantanamo, he was outfitted with gear to ensure full sensory deprivation and then kicked repeatedly.
He was not allowed to speak with a lawyer for two years.
Three weeks before being visited by CSIS, he was deprived of sleep and constantly moved around.
One of his cell mates in 2003 said that he would often return to his cell crying and hide in a corner.
Spat on by a military interrogator who tore out some of his hair and threatened to send him to a country where he would be tortured even more than he already was and raped.
Short shackled until he soiled himself.
Dragged him across the floor when it was covered in his own urine and pine oil and left in those filthy clothes for two days.
Transferred to solitary confinement for a month in an empty, windowless cell.
When he confessed to CSIS that he had lied to american troops to stop them from torturing him further, they accused him of lying and left him in tears.
Suffered from delusions, hallucinations, intense paranoia and suicidal behaviour.
Participated in a hunger strike for 15 days. When he collapsed from weakness when leaving the hospital, he was repeatedly kicked and assaulted by military police.
Another inmate wrote down in a journal that Omar had thrown up blood and was unconscious in his cell.
Diagnosed with PTSD.
When he showed that he distrusted his military lawyers and called his guards idiots, he was sent to an isolation cell.
Was put into the harshest part of Guantanamo for disciplinary reasons shortly after speaking with his mother for the first time.
His items were seized because he wasn't allowed to read a Lord of the Rings screenplay.
He was ordered to stop playing chess and dominoes with his attorneys.
Assessed by a psychologist who stated that he could not establish trust because of how much he had been abused.

And perhaps worse of all they denied him access to a Qur'an

[Arumdaum]

This boy should be executed. Not only this boy, his parents and his spiritual teachers should be executed too, because they've already brainwashed him.

Are you serious?

[Martean]

he should be freed, it's desproportionate what they've done to him

[Caninope]

*snip*

A lot of that, and definitely the longest lasting portions of that, would be abuse. Not torture (definition 2 is the most relevant). Am I saying he wasn't mistreated? Sure he was. Was he abused? Sure. Was he tortured? I don't think this falls under that definition, at least not for the majority of his experiences.

[Shemiki]

I'm personally glad they did all that to him. He deserved it. He deserves more. He should be executed slowly and painfully, along with every other scumbag like him. It would save tax dollars on keeping him alive, and serve justice as well. Win-win.

[Sulamalik]

*snip*

A lot of that, and definitely the longest lasting portions of that, would be abuse. Not torture (definition 2 is the most relevant). Am I saying he wasn't mistreated? Sure he was. Was he abused? Sure. Was he tortured? I don't think this falls under that definition, at least not for the majority of his experiences.

Here, you go through everything he did, and if you can still say it wasn't torture, well, your argument will have a bit more credibility.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

I'm personally glad they did all that to him. He deserved it. He deserves more. He should be executed slowly and painfully, along with every other scumbag like him. It would save tax dollars on keeping him alive, and serve justice to boot. Win-win.

Actually, the death penalty costs much more than life imprisonment.

[Arumdaum]

*snip*

A lot of that, and definitely the longest lasting portions of that, would be abuse. Not torture (definition 2 is the most relevant). Am I saying he wasn't mistreated? Sure he was. Was he abused? Sure. Was he tortured? I don't think this falls under that definition, at least not for the majority of his experiences.

And you're just going to totally ignore the first definition?

Are you suggesting that the only type of torture is intense physical torture?

[Greater Somalia]

Wasn't his father killed in that raid? That probably explains why he felt he had to kill those soldiers.

[Tlaceceyaya]

*snip*

A lot of that, and definitely the longest lasting portions of that, would be abuse. Not torture (definition 2 is the most relevant). Am I saying he wasn't mistreated? Sure he was. Was he abused? Sure. Was he tortured? I don't think this falls under that definition, at least not for the majority of his experiences.

Torture does not necessarily mean physically harming someone. In fact, some of the most devious forms of torture are not physical at all. And he was mistreated to the point of it being a grave beach of the Geneva Convention.

[Gravlen]

Canada shouldr release him if he's no longer a danger to society.

The US should compensate him for the mistreatment he's suffered.


That was 8 years ago, after he'd spent, what, two years at Guantanamo?

Just as soon as he pays for the mistreatment he inflicted.

What, with a decade at Guantanamo? Done.

Now send him his money.