If Obama Wins, Wither the Republicans?

[Shofercia]

I wouldn't consider Regan or Bush Sr. to be good examples. They're both pretty shitty in their own rights.

What do you have against Bush Sr.?

His predecessor and his sons

[Jinos]

Speaking in a hopeful sense. I would like to see the Republicans thoroughly crushed in '12 '14, which would in my opinion, fracture the GOP (if the continue moving right, which by all indications seems likely). This would probably lead to most Republicans flocking to the already coopted Libertarian party, but possibly shedding its religious zealots in the process if the Libertarian party is able to keep control of its current platform.

However, in that interm political chaos, we would see a huge upswing in the Democratic party. Possibly enough to get IT to also fracture into a new Progressive/Liberal movement, possibly aligned with the Green Party. It's no secret that there's serious backlash among Democrats against Obama and other Democratic "neutralists" who want to play pattycake with the Republicans. If that does happen, we'd finally see an end to "Blue Dogs" who'd be forced over to the new Conservative party, who might hopefully act as anchors on that party against the Fundies of the former GOP.

Basically, I'm crossing my fingers for a collapse of both parties and the emergence of new ones.

[Caninope]

Shit happened.

Sorry Wami, I like ya, but Nightkill got ya there

Yes he was. Is it weird that I'm proud of that?

Not at all. Propaganda is a tool, it depends on what you use it for. Think of it as a chainsaw. If you use it to massacre kids - very bad. If you use it to create art - meh. If you use it to help people, by building houses - that's great! There's nothing wrong with using propaganda, unless you're using it for an evil cause. And that's the difference between Adams and Goebbels; Adams used it to build houses, Goebbels - to massacre kids. So start building

I thought Sam Adams just used propaganda so he could reinvest the money he wouldn't be paying in taxes into his malthouse.

It's trickle down alcohol.

[Shofercia]

Sorry Wami, I like ya, but Nightkill got ya there




Not at all. Propaganda is a tool, it depends on what you use it for. Think of it as a chainsaw. If you use it to massacre kids - very bad. If you use it to create art - meh. If you use it to help people, by building houses - that's great! There's nothing wrong with using propaganda, unless you're using it for an evil cause. And that's the difference between Adams and Goebbels; Adams used it to build houses, Goebbels - to massacre kids. So start building

I thought Sam Adams just used propaganda so he could reinvest the money he wouldn't be paying in taxes into his malthouse.

It's trickle down alcohol.

And it's always a good decision

[Coltarin]

The centrist Reps will try to distance themselves from the right wing nut house the Republican party has become. It's almost a perfect example of 'How the Mighty have Fallen'. That this is the same party that produced Eisenhower, Reagan, and even Bush Sr. It's a terrible disappointment that they've been taken over be xenophobic, elitist, sexists. Reagan is rolling in his grave.

I wouldn't consider Regan or Bush Sr. to be good examples. They're both pretty shitty in their own rights.

Reagan helped usher in a new era in Nuclear weapons treaties, and with out US pressure the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan would of continued much longer, and the USSR may not have fallen as soon.

[Caninope]

What do you have against Bush Sr.?

His predecessor and his sons

Say what you want against George Bush, the only reason anyone (and by that, I mean Democrats) should dislike Jeb Bush is because he would have destroyed the other GOP candidates and given Obama a run for his money in the general election.

I mean seriously. You guys want a candidate who can deliver Hispanics? Jeb's your man. At the very least, he could do it better than any candidate who ran. IIRC, he also speaks Spanish (like his brother, and better than him brother I think). I feel it might also be worth noting that George W. Bush knew the importance of Hispanics too, and helped close the lead among Hispanic voters in his term.

Best of all, we wouldn't have seen such a strong Clinton endorsement of Obama, given Clinton's strong ties with the Bush family (yes, I'm actually serious here).

[Wikkiwallana]

Why should he be rolling in his grave? It was he who started this shit.

While Reagan was fairly conservative, he was also much more mild and compromising than the ones we have now.

What we have now should be blamed on Dr. Newton Leroy Gingrich.

Gingrich may have riled up the Fundies and Birchers, but it was Reagan who invited them to sit at the big boy table; at least, if what I've read from ASB and others is true.

[Caninope]

While Reagan was fairly conservative, he was also much more mild and compromising than the ones we have now.

What we have now should be blamed on Dr. Newton Leroy Gingrich.

Gingrich may have riled up the Fundies and Birchers, but it was Reagan who invited them to sit at the big boy table; at least, if what I've read from ASB and others is true.

Grover Norquist and Newt Gingrich have far more of the burden on his shoulders. Reagan may have invited them to sit at the big boy table, but he made sure to neuter them and put them on a leash first. That leash was his charisma and popular support. He would able to get them to bend over and worship him as Washington incarnate, had he wanted to. The problem comes when others, like those two I mentioned, unleashed these forces and failed to control them (something John Boehner is culpable for with the Tea Party).

[Shofercia]

I wouldn't consider Regan or Bush Sr. to be good examples. They're both pretty shitty in their own rights.

Reagan helped usher in a new era in Nuclear weapons treaties, and with out US pressure the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan would of continued much longer, and the USSR may not have fallen as soon.

USSR fell because USSR had crappy leaders, not because of Afghanistan. The US did much worse in Vietnam. Did US fall because of Vietnam? In terms of foreign policy, Reagan's overrated. He went up against Gorbachev. If you combine Stalin's failures, Khrushchev not having enough time to address said failures, Brezhnev doing little about said failures, and Gorbachev letting those failures blossom by running incompatible policies - you get what you get. If the USSR had someone like FDR for at least two decades, and Zhukov, (the Soviet equivalent of Ike,) for eight years, then USSR would have done much better.

His predecessor and his sons

Say what you want against George Bush, the only reason anyone (and by that, I mean Democrats) should dislike Jeb Bush is because he would have destroyed the other GOP candidates and given Obama a run for his money in the general election.

I mean seriously. You guys want a candidate who can deliver Hispanics? Jeb's your man. At the very least, he could do it better than any candidate who ran. IIRC, he also speaks Spanish (like his brother, and better than him brother I think). I feel it might also be worth noting that George W. Bush knew the importance of Hispanics too, and helped close the lead among Hispanic voters in his term.

Best of all, we wouldn't have seen such a strong Clinton endorsement of Obama, given Clinton's strong ties with the Bush family (yes, I'm actually serious here).

Actually, I don't like Jeb Bush, because his cabinet helped his brother "win" the 2000 elections. The sad part is that the Bush Presidency killed off the Republican Party. I mean McCain? Romney? Que pasa guys?

[Greater Mackonia]

Hopefully they will suffer a long (best case scenario eternal) wilderness period before realizing that the 1950s are over and moving to the center.

[Raumm]

It's quite sad to see a party that was once quite reasonable go towards being insanely rightist, even the nationalist parties in Europe have more progressive social platforms. But it is about time the GOP goes the way of the Federalist. It'd be great if we could see a different party replace them. Social Democrats anyone?

[SaintB]

It's quite sad to see a party that was once quite reasonable go towards being insanely rightist, even the nationalist parties in Europe have more progressive social platforms. But it is about time the GOP goes the way of the Federalist. It'd be great if we could see a different party replace them. Social Democrats anyone?

You mean a real liberal party (or at least a centrist party) to oppose the real conservative party? That would be like a dream come true.

[Khadgar]

It's quite sad to see a party that was once quite reasonable go towards being insanely rightist, even the nationalist parties in Europe have more progressive social platforms. But it is about time the GOP goes the way of the Federalist. It'd be great if we could see a different party replace them. Social Democrats anyone?

You mean a real liberal party (or at least a centrist party) to oppose the real conservative party? That would be like a dream come true.

I'd love to vote for a liberal for a change.

[Australasia]

You mean a real liberal party (or at least a centrist party) to oppose the real conservative party? That would be like a dream come true.

I'd love to vote for a liberal for a change.

It's pretty sad: right now the United States has a conservative-to-centrist party (the Democratic party) and a far right-wing reactionary party (the Republican party - lord, what a heart attack President Lincoln would have if he knew what happened to his party). It'll be pretty nice to see the United States have a real liberal party indeed.

[Farnhamia]

I'd love to vote for a liberal for a change.

It's pretty sad: right now the United States has a conservative-to-centrist party (the Democratic party) and a far right-wing reactionary party (the Republican party - lord, what a heart attack President Lincoln would have if he knew what happened to his party). It'll be pretty nice to see the United States have a real liberal party indeed.

You know what would be even nicer? If people from other countries, even the ones I agree with, would bugger off and stop trying to equate the politics of their countries with the politics of mine. And yes, President Lincoln would fall down dead from what we used to call a fit of apoplexy.

[Fnordgasm 5]

It's pretty sad: right now the United States has a conservative-to-centrist party (the Democratic party) and a far right-wing reactionary party (the Republican party - lord, what a heart attack President Lincoln would have if he knew what happened to his party). It'll be pretty nice to see the United States have a real liberal party indeed.

You know what would be even nicer? If people from other countries, even the ones I agree with, would bugger off and stop trying to equate the politics of their countries with the politics of mine. And yes, President Lincoln would fall down dead from what we used to call a fit of apoplexy.

If it bothers you so much then perhaps an international forum isn't the place for you.

[Australasia]

It's pretty sad: right now the United States has a conservative-to-centrist party (the Democratic party) and a far right-wing reactionary party (the Republican party - lord, what a heart attack President Lincoln would have if he knew what happened to his party). It'll be pretty nice to see the United States have a real liberal party indeed.

You know what would be even nicer? If people from other countries, even the ones I agree with, would bugger off and stop trying to equate the politics of their countries with the politics of mine. And yes, President Lincoln would fall down dead from what we used to call a fit of apoplexy.

I'm not comparing it with mine - I'm comparing the United States with the rest of the developed world.

[Farnhamia]

You know what would be even nicer? If people from other countries, even the ones I agree with, would bugger off and stop trying to equate the politics of their countries with the politics of mine. And yes, President Lincoln would fall down dead from what we used to call a fit of apoplexy.

I'm not comparing it with mine - I'm comparing the United States with the rest of the developed world.

And I'm saying you can't really do that, different countries being, you know, different.

If it bothers you so much then perhaps an international forum isn't the place for you.

See Opinion, Expression Of (Mine). See also, Attitude, Snotty (Yours). That's my point, in a way, people love to lecture the United States on what we should do, how we should handle this, that and the other thing, tell us how our parties are not what we think they are. Heaven forfend we should express the least bit of disagreement or resentment at this lecturing, though. Then it's "perhaps an international forum isn't the place for you."

[Fnordgasm 5]

I'm not comparing it with mine - I'm comparing the United States with the rest of the developed world.

And I'm saying you can't really do that, different countries being, you know, different.

If it bothers you so much then perhaps an international forum isn't the place for you.

See Opinion, Expression Of (Mine). See also, Attitude, Snotty (Yours). That's my point, in a way, people love to lecture the United States on what we should do, how we should handle this, that and the other thing, tell us how our parties are not what we think they are. Heaven forfend we should express the least bit of disagreement or resentment at this lecturing, though. Then it's "perhaps an international forum isn't the place for you."

So one person makes a comment which two American's are seemingly in agreement with and suddenly the rest of the world is lecturing you? You're the one telling people to bugger off for disagreeing with people, not me. You're the one getting wound up over people using different definitions. This is no different than arguing about whether football should be called soccer and just like that debate it doesn't matter which side you argue for you come across as petty.

[Arkinesia]

Hopefully they will suffer a long (best case scenario eternal) wilderness period before realizing that the 1950s are over and moving to the center.

The 1950s had a wonderful political structure, actually.

As ASB explained on the first page of the thread.

[Caninope]

Actually, I don't like Jeb Bush, because his cabinet helped his brother "win" the 2000 elections. The sad part is that the Bush Presidency killed off the Republican Party. I mean McCain? Romney? Que pasa guys?

For what it's worth, I don't think Jeb Bush is guilty of any wrongdoing in the 2000 election. It was largely a legal matter, and was handled that way.

[Caninope]

You know what would be even nicer? If people from other countries, even the ones I agree with, would bugger off and stop trying to equate the politics of their countries with the politics of mine. And yes, President Lincoln would fall down dead from what we used to call a fit of apoplexy.

I'm not comparing it with mine - I'm comparing the United States with the rest of the developed world.

Except that definition of liberal and conservative changes with each country.

[Capitalist Paradise of Hong Kong]

Since Ron Paul is out of the business you have to vote Gary Johnsson or if you don't agree with him you have to vote Obama because if you vote Romney you will be able to vote Ron Paul on the next elections .

[Ora Amaris]

Speaking in a hopeful sense. I would like to see the Republicans thoroughly crushed in '12 '14, which would in my opinion, fracture the GOP (if the continue moving right, which by all indications seems likely). This would probably lead to most Republicans flocking to the already coopted Libertarian party, but possibly shedding its religious zealots in the process if the Libertarian party is able to keep control of its current platform.

However, in that interm political chaos, we would see a huge upswing in the Democratic party. Possibly enough to get IT to also fracture into a new Progressive/Liberal movement, possibly aligned with the Green Party. It's no secret that there's serious backlash among Democrats against Obama and other Democratic "neutralists" who want to play pattycake with the Republicans. If that does happen, we'd finally see an end to "Blue Dogs" who'd be forced over to the new Conservative party, who might hopefully act as anchors on that party against the Fundies of the former GOP.

Basically, I'm crossing my fingers for a collapse of both parties and the emergence of new ones.

This is exactly what America needs. If this happens... I will be happy for America.
But also, America needs complete reform of the electoral system as well. I say just abolish the electoral college and go for runoff elections.

[Gauntleted Fist]

So one person makes a comment which two American's are seemingly in agreement with and suddenly the rest of the world is lecturing you?

Have you ever read a USian thread before on this forum?



For content:

I think we'll start to see fractures in the party around the 2014 election, especially if losing the 2012 election causes them to shift even further to the right.