Israel/Palestine Issue

[Aechelon]

Well, who was there first? (semi-rhetorical)

[Ralkovia]

Okay, new thought: Give Palestine/Israel to Egypt. Maybe have Jerusalem be any international city. If Egypt gets its stuff together, I feel like this might not be that bad of an idea. Everybody that lives there now could keep living there.

Yeah, Egypt has a problem keeping its own people from murdering coptic christians when ever the Coptics try to build a new church. That won't work out well for anyone. Israel is a Jewish State meant to protect Jewish people. It won't fall under any Muslim government's jurisdiction.

[Ralkovia]

Well, who was there first? (semi-rhetorical)

The OttomansThe ArabsThe JewsThe Dinosaurs.The Ocean.

[Maurepas]

I think the world will be better off if noone but Israel and Iran take a side. Without any support, the war will be nothing.

[Costa Alegria]

Well, who was there first? (semi-rhetorical)

The OttomansThe ArabsThe JewsThe Dinosaurs.The Ocean.

Proto-bacteria.

Page 4. Yes I thought that comment was ridiculous too. That's precisely what I mean by BS. By exaggerating statistics and straining the truth they're doing nothing for anyone, in fact making the situation worse but misinforming people with their delusions of reality.

And making it entertaining.

The "Greater Israel" thing is just BS, though I can see why mis-informed people might think that when people use the biblical argument for Israel's existence, because there is a bit of that manifest ideology there.

I've actually never heard of the Greater Israel idea until Kemalist mentioned it. Even then, I dismissed it as some sort of nationalist rhetoric.

With regards to different kinds of nationalism being justified or not I'm not sure I agree, I think policies can be justified or not, not ideologies though, because they're theoretical, not specific.

Nationalism isn't justified, IMHO, period. It leads people down a dangerous path where they willingly ignore the crimes of their own people and will not learn from their mistakes.

Policies can be justified based on whatever ideology the person holds and wherever said policies fit into their belief system. With the example between Kemaliste and I, he justified the Turkish government's policies based on nationalism whilst also condemning the same policies of another country simply because he doesn't have the same ethnicity.

[Disserbia]

And making it entertaining.

Sinister humor is always the funniest.

I've actually never heard of the Greater Israel idea until Kemalist mentioned it. Even then, I dismissed it as some sort of nationalist rhetoric.

That's because the "Greater Israel" idea doesn't exist, he's basing it off other ultra-nationalist, racist movements, and its absolutely asinine.

Nationalism isn't justified, IMHO, period. It leads people down a dangerous path where they willingly ignore the crimes of their own people and will not learn from their mistakes.

Policies can be justified based on whatever ideology the person holds and wherever said policies fit into their belief system. With the example between Kemaliste and I, he justified the Turkish government's policies based on nationalism whilst also condemning the same policies of another country simply because he doesn't have the same ethnicity.

There are many different kinds of nationalism though. That's why I disagree with absolute statements. From what I can tell I believe Kemaliste's brand is hypocritical and unjustified as well, but that doesn't mean all are. You have to look at it in a case to case basis, nationalism can be a positive thing if done right.

However, no matter what someone says about how their policy decision was based on an ideology, in the end it was their personal decision and they alone are responsible for it, not a political theory. People need to take responsibility for their actions that's the only way problems like the Israel/Palestine conflict can be solved.

[Forster Keys]

Agreed. :/

Does that mean we should ignore what's happening in Palestine too?

No, it means we shouldn't be partisan. We should move beyond Israel bad - Arabs good or vice versa.

Because I'm pretty sure that exactly the kind of hypocrisy Costa Alegria doesn't understand.

He can speak for himself.

Oh and this is a thread about Israel and Palestine, not the violation of territorial integrity and ethnic cleansing elsewhere. So back to topic, shall we?

Seems right on topic to me. The Israeli government isn't the only entity that oppresses and mistreats, both now and historically, Palestinians.

This topic is about Israel and Palestine isn't it?

[Disserbia]

No, it means we shouldn't be partisan. We should move beyond Israel bad - Arabs good or vice versa.

I never said otherwise, and I wasn't being partisan, you shouldn't assume someone is partisan because they don't agree with you.

The Israeli government isn't the only entity that oppresses and mistreats, both now and historically, Palestinians.

Again, I never said otherwise.

Plus Costa Alegria and I settled this already, there is really no need to bring it up again.

[Forster Keys]

Look the graphs:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I was actually referring to occupations in general, but whatever, I'll bite.

First off those graphs don't give valid comparison since it's pretty much given that the occupied side will have more casualties than the occupiers. This doesn't necessarily mean that the occupiers purposefully attack the occupied civilians, and if the civilians are not purposefully targeted the it's not terror or terrorism. This also invalidates the prisoner graph. It's rather obvious that people under occupation do not run prisons and/or courts.

Well that's sort of the point. They shouldn't be.

When it comes to the US military aid graph, that is just ridicilous and so clearly biased it's not even funny. Israel is US ally in a region where about everyone else wants and/or has tried to eradicate it, whereas Palestinians are not allies of the US. In fact they are technically at war with the afore mentioned US ally. What a suprise that US gives military aid to Israel but not the Palestinians!

So? It's just highlighting the amount of support America gives Israel.

Regarding the settlements, while they are certainly morally wrong, they are not technically illegal since the international law which is used to judge them was done to prevent forced population transfers (mostly exodus style stuff). The Israeli settlements are neither forced nor exodus styled. They are people voluntarily moving somewhere, not people being forced out off somewhere. Also, little suprise the palestinians don't have settlements, they are under occupation.

Well Amnesty International, the UN, Human Rights Watch and the Israeli High Court tend to disagree with you, amongst others.

When it comes to the demolished homes graph, while Israel is obviously not operating entirely justifaiably I'm going to call bullshit on this graph. There's no way that not a single jewish home has been destroyed by the palestinians. One word: Hamas.

Probably right.

I can't comment on the deaths and injuries graphs since I don't have any other sources myself, but I'm going to take them with a grain of salt.[/quote]

Well they have the sources if you want to verify their accuracy.

[Forster Keys]

No, it means we shouldn't be partisan. We should move beyond Israel bad - Arabs good or vice versa.

I never said otherwise, and I wasn't being partisan, you shouldn't assume someone is partisan because they don't agree with you.

The Israeli government isn't the only entity that oppresses and mistreats, both now and historically, Palestinians.

Again, I never said otherwise.

Plus Costa Alegria and I settled this already, there is really no need to bring it up again.

Don't take my words so personally. If I wasn't specifically referring to you, just justifying my own position.

[Disserbia]

I never said otherwise, and I wasn't being partisan, you shouldn't assume someone is partisan because they don't agree with you.

Again, I never said otherwise.

Plus Costa Alegria and I settled this already, there is really no need to bring it up again.

Don't take my words so personally. If I wasn't specifically referring to you, just justifying my own position.

Sorry, I know how people get on this issue and I don't like it. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt though.

[Forster Keys]

Don't take my words so personally. If I wasn't specifically referring to you, just justifying my own position.

Sorry, I know how people get on this issue and I don't like it. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt though.

No worries, it's all cool.

[Cevalo Nacio]

Getting wrapped up in "Who was there first" is a very stupid argument to get into. Frankly, there have been Palestianian farmers there for generations who have been the majority there for years. The "Jews were there first" argument makes as much sense as wanting to give America back to the Indians. (Less so though because the diaspora was thousands of years ago)

[Melas]

The jews were doing just fine at other nations why did they need their own

Oh well I believe all ethnical groups should have a nation of their own and Palestine (neither Israel) are not any different.

[Chinamerica]

Hey, all the palestinians LEFT palestine.
They came back when Israel won the war.
Boo hoo, you abandoned the land. It isn't yours anymore.

Would you have stayed in a land bombed and destroyed by Israel? Also, that argument reminds me of something I heard in kindergarten.

You are an anti-Semitic communist. Next to nobody would take fools like you seriously.
Originally, a two-state solution was supposed to be put in place, which Israel agreed to, but the Arabs didn't and attacked Israel.
I wouldn't give two shits if Israel blew Palestinian children out of a cannon. This whole situation is the fault of Palestine and all the other bloody Arab lunatics that reside in that land.
And Israel is a democracy, by the way. The only true democracy in the Middle East.
Fuck off troll.

[Kemaliste]

The only true democracy in the Middle East.

Lebanon ? Palestine is a democracy, too.

[Disserbia]

Would you have stayed in a land bombed and destroyed by Israel? Also, that argument reminds me of something I heard in kindergarten.

You are an anti-Semitic communist. Next to nobody would take fools like you seriously.
Originally, a two-state solution was supposed to be put in place, which Israel agreed to, but the Arabs didn't and attacked Israel.
I wouldn't give two shits if Israel blew Palestinian children out of a cannon. This whole situation is the fault of Palestine and all the other bloody Arab lunatics that reside in that land.
And Israel is a democracy, by the way. The only true democracy in the Middle East.
Fuck off troll.

You don't know what you're talking about and you're the one making the bigoted statements here. Calling someone anti-semitic because they don't agree with the actions of a government is not only incorrect, its an insult to anyone who has ever been a victim of actual anti-semitism. Also, trollnaming has been made specifically illegal.

[Chinamerica]

No, I call him anti-Semitic because he describes himself as an 'anti-Zionist'. In most cases, that's just poorly disguised anti-Semitism. I'm not Jewish, but I am strongly against anti-Semitism.

[Tmutarakhan]

Israel didn't grab it from warfare. Israel was invaded and then launched counter-assaults.

The Golan Heights was grabbed from Syria during the wars in the 60's and 70's and their still under Isreali controll

Because the Golan Heights were used as a missile-launching pad to rain rockets down on farmers, daily.

[Disserbia]

No, I call him anti-Semitic because he describes himself as an 'anti-Zionist'. In most cases, that's just poorly disguised anti-Semitism. I'm not Jewish, but I am strongly against anti-Semitism.

It isn't always though. Zionism is a political movement, Semitic is an ethnic classification.

I wouldn't give two shits if Israel blew Palestinian children out of a cannon.

If you don't like bigotry, don't participate in it.

[Giroad]

FREE PALESTINE

[Priory Academy USSR]

FREE PALESTINE

I see that post will have great repercussions across the Middle East, causing Israel's retreat from Palestine.

[Shmana]

The only true democracy in the Middle East.

Lebanon ? Palestine is a democracy, too.

A) there is no "state of palestine" so it can't be democratic
B) the palastinian authority is divided by the PLA and HAMAS (they don't recognise democracy)
C) the new comer to being a democracy in the middle east is Egypt

so now we have two democratic states in the middle eat : Israel & Egypt

[Kemaliste]

Lebanon ? Palestine is a democracy, too.

A) there is no "state of palestine" so it can't be democratic
B) the palastinian authority is divided by the PLA and HAMAS (they don't recognise democracy)
C) the new comer to being a democracy in the middle east is Egypt

so now we have two democratic states in the middle eat : Israel & Egypt

There are free elections in Palestine, which also other parties than Hamas and Fatah also participate. Their not being so popular does not change this fact. It's normal because the both parties are giving a real struggle in any terms for the liberation of the Palestine, so that they get a high amount of popular support.

And good that you recognized another democracy after claiming that there was no any other one than Israel. Add Lebanon to the list as well, please.

[Kitsune France]

FREE PALESTINE

I see that post will have great repercussions across the Middle East, causing Israel's retreat from Palestine.

Causing a dominoe effect, turning China into a democratic power, Iran into a peace-leaving nation, and Cuba flying into outer space.