Israel/Palestine Issue

[Sulamalik]

Do you belief a two-state can be reached when Israeli settlers have put up roots in the occupied territories?

No. I also don't believe that a two-state solution can be agreed upon when both sides in Palestine are only interested in maintaining their grip on power and pride as opposed to the interests of their people.

What is the Palestinian Authority doing to make you think that?

[Germanic Templars]

Do you belief a two-state can be reached when Israeli settlers have put up roots in the occupied territories?

No. I also don't believe that a two-state solution can be agreed upon when both sides in Palestine are only interested in maintaining their grip on power and pride as opposed to the interests of their people.

That is the problem with the Middle East, pride and religious zeal, put those aside and I am sure that conflict will dissipate down.

[Leporario]

I am American. I support Israel. The vast majority of nations over there seem to hate us, with few exceptions like Saudi Arabia and Israel. If we desert our allies, who will trust us. Israel is in a constant fight for existence, and they need to be supported. The end justifies the means.

[Techocracy101010]

We like to say "we own land" but no one does. We just rent it till time reclaims it how about the whole damn area is called a world heritage site and every one leaves. Better yet why do religions need a home land home is where ever you want to be. Also doesn't the creation of Israel side step governments responsibility of protecting people from genocide I mean why do they need a nation to be safe.

[Chesapeake]

If the whole area was to be transferred control to Palestine, do you guys think they would continue the development of democracy in the middle east? I don't know much about the PA, but I kind of remember hearing that it does run democratically. I just want to be able to avoid an oppressive government in Israel. I don't care which side rules, as long as they are fair and democratic. It needs to be a textbook liberal democracy that respects the religions of all there. (Although I think some self-segregation by the citizens may be for the best. Nobody should be forced to live together, that would just cause violence.) Any thoughts on the PA or anything else?

[Norsklow]

If the whole area was to be transferred control to Palestine, do you guys think they would continue the development of democracy in the middle east? I don't know much about the PA, but I kind of remember hearing that it does run democratically. I just want to be able to avoid an oppressive government in Israel. I don't care which side rules, as long as they are fair and democratic. It needs to be a textbook liberal democracy that respects the religions of all there. (Although I think some self-segregation by the citizens may be for the best. Nobody should be forced to live together, that would just cause violence.) Any thoughts on the PA or anything else?

Yeah. The thought is: 'Hamas'.

[Costa Alegria]

What is the Palestinian Authority doing to make you think that?

Possible revocation of the Olso Accords is one thing. Ongoing political harassment of opponents is another thing. By both sides.

[Sulamalik]

If the whole area was to be transferred control to Palestine, do you guys think they would continue the development of democracy in the middle east? I don't know much about the PA, but I kind of remember hearing that it does run democratically. I just want to be able to avoid an oppressive government in Israel. I don't care which side rules, as long as they are fair and democratic. It needs to be a textbook liberal democracy that respects the religions of all there. (Although I think some self-segregation by the citizens may be for the best. Nobody should be forced to live together, that would just cause violence.) Any thoughts on the PA or anything else?

Yeah. The thought is: 'Hamas'.

Organizations like Hamas exist because more moderate alternatives are squashed or ineffective at enacting change. The reason why Hamas won the election was because during voting season they were the only one's actually giving welfare to the people of the Gaza Strip.

[Norsklow]

Yeah. The thought is: 'Hamas'.

Organizations like Hamas exist because more moderate alternatives are squashed or ineffective at enacting change. The reason why Hamas was the election was because during voting season they were the only one's actually giving welfare to the people of the Gaza Strip.

True. Same thing happened in Northern Ireland/Ulster.

But the essential problem remains the same.

[Caj]

I think Israel should exist. Tons of Muslim nations, the Jews deserve their own country.

[Disserbia]

Does that mean we should ignore what's happening in Palestine too? Because I'm pretty sure that exactly the kind of hypocrisy Costa Alegria doesn't understand. Oh and this is a thread about Israel and Palestine, not the violation of territorial integrity and ethnic cleansing elsewhere. So back to topic, shall we?

And you've just made yourself look like a complete arse. Congratulations on missing my point entirely.

My original point, for those who have seen my previous opinions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, was that whilst what Israel is doing is deplorable and should not be condoned, it isn't the only country committing said crimes and certain people who live in countries who have committed similar crimes in the past (looking at you Kemaliste) are acting hypocritical about the whole issue.

It appears you're wrong, instead of actually confronting the fact that Palestinians are having their human rights abused in a thread about the Israel/Palestine conflict, you are busy talking about how Kemaliste might be a bigot. Remember the rule about attacking arguments and not posters, I'm sure you do. Now, since I'm not Kemaliste and personal attacks aren't allowed, lets go back to my original statement about how Palestinians should be treated like human beings, especially by a nation full of people who have had the worst crime against humanity visited upon them in recent history. There are human rights abuses going on all over the world, this thread is not about those, its about Israel/Palestine, and to ignore this in favor of personal insults is a bit belittling to the immense struggles which both the Israeli and Palestinian people are facing now. Plus you were not quoting Kemaliste when you were making your point you were quoting me, and I ignore no crime against humanity so you had no reason to quote me. To be sure I support Israel, I want it to exist, and I want it to exist in peace. But don't confuse silence with peace. A highly militarized society, even if it is a well protected one, takes its toll on people. Here is a perfect example of that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_th ... s_massacre
I don't claim to know everything about the way the world works or about world affairs but I do know one thing for sure, blind nationalism and denial of a state's issues/crimes is no way to preserve the country and culture you love and help make that country the best it can be. Oh and also you can never win in a conflict that never ends. I know how Israelis feel, there are very few people who want Israel to succeed more than me, that is why I'm so dedicated to this issue, now if that's a problem for you, I'm sorry, but that will change nothing for me.

Look, we agree on this issue, we should not be arguing, especially about something that has nothing to do with this thread.

This is a Israeli-Palestinian thread and people are voicing their opinions on Israel. If you want people to comment on, say, Joseph Kony, then make a thread for it.

That also doesn't stop me from telling certain people that their views are hypocritical. If you criticise Israel for their governments actions when your own government has done the same, and then defend your own government's actions, you are being hypocritical.

By the way, just for the record, I loathe that kind of hypocrisy as well, which is why I've made it my life's purpose to fight against it.

[Chesapeake]

Okay, new thought: Give Palestine/Israel to Egypt. Maybe have Jerusalem be any international city. If Egypt gets its stuff together, I feel like this might not be that bad of an idea. Everybody that lives there now could keep living there.

[Sulamalik]

Okay, new thought: Give Palestine/Israel to Egypt. Maybe have Jerusalem be any international city. If Egypt gets its stuff together, I feel like this might not be that bad of an idea. Everybody that lives there now could keep living there.

I don't think self-determination works like that.

[Disserbia]

Okay, new thought: Give Palestine/Israel to Egypt. Maybe have Jerusalem be any international city. If Egypt gets its stuff together, I feel like this might not be that bad of an idea. Everybody that lives there now could keep living there.

The Irony, Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city.

[Germanic Templars]

Okay, new thought: Give Palestine/Israel to Egypt. Maybe have Jerusalem be any international city. If Egypt gets its stuff together, I feel like this might not be that bad of an idea. Everybody that lives there now could keep living there.

The Irony, Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city.

What prevented that?

[Costa Alegria]

It appears you're wrong.

In your opinion maybe.

Instead of actually confronting the fact that Palestinians are having their human rights abused in a thread about the Israel/Palestine conflict, you are busy talking about how Kemaliste might be a bigot.

Might be? Have you actually been keeping up with the argument thus far, or have you stuck your fat nose in where it isn't wanted and made an assumption based on a few selected statements.

I criticised Kemaliste's argument because the actions of the Israeli government, such as ethnic cleasning and settlers were no different to that of the Turkish government's policies with regards to Nothern Cyprus. Now, it wasn't a personal attack on Kemaliste himself but it was pointing out that his argument and opinion was hypocritical because both governments committed crimes but he was only prepared to condemn the Israeli government and not his own.

Remember the rule about attacking arguments and not posters, I'm sure you do.

I was criticising his argument. Nowhere does it say in the rules that I can't criticise his argument because it is hypocritical.

And I am not going to reply to the rest of your oh-so-smug, holier-than-thou post because, if you remember from previous threads, you damn well know what I think of the Israeli government's policies regarding settlers. Now, before you make a reply, may I suggest you go over the past couple of pages please. That way, you will be up-to-date with the current flow of the debate and not making hilariously incorrect statements.

Fuck, why do I have to explain the fucking obvious to people sometimes. Seriously.

[Disserbia]

The Irony, Jerusalem was supposed to be an international city.

What prevented that?

Is that a loaded question or a genuine question, sorry to ask that but I don't want to argue about this anymore so I need to know what I"m getting into.

[Disserbia]

It appears you're wrong.

In your opinion maybe.

Instead of actually confronting the fact that Palestinians are having their human rights abused in a thread about the Israel/Palestine conflict, you are busy talking about how Kemaliste might be a bigot.

Might be? Have you actually been keeping up with the argument thus far, or have you stuck your fat nose in where it isn't wanted and made an assumption based on a few selected statements.

I criticised Kemaliste's argument because the actions of the Israeli government, such as ethnic cleasning and settlers were no different to that of the Turkish government's policies with regards to Nothern Cyprus. Now, it wasn't a personal attack on Kemaliste himself but it was pointing out that his argument and opinion was hypocritical because both governments committed crimes but he was only prepared to condemn the Israeli government and not his own.

Remember the rule about attacking arguments and not posters, I'm sure you do.

I was criticising his argument. Nowhere does it say in the rules that I can't criticise his argument because it is hypocritical.

And I am not going to reply to the rest of your oh-so-smug, holier-than-thou post because, if you remember from previous threads, you damn well know what I think of the Israeli government's policies regarding settlers. Now, before you make a reply, may I suggest you go over the past couple of pages please. That way, you will be up-to-date with the current flow of the debate and not making hilariously incorrect statements.

Fuck, why do I have to explain the fucking obvious to people sometimes. Seriously.

If you don't want me to react like this why did you quote me in the first place? You really can't see how what you posted looked like a personal attack? I studied this conflict very intensely for a very long time and I'm not obligated to sift though the tons of BS in this thread, all I wanted to do was respond to the topic with my opinion, it had nothing to do with you. So, I'm sorry for the apparent misunderstanding, but please make it obvious what you mean the first time so this doesn't happen again, you seem like a reasonable, intelligent, and informed individual, and we have no reason to argue.

[Costa Alegria]

If you don't want me to react like this why did you quote me in the first place?

I was making a generalised statement using you as the catalyst. I was going to state that it wasn't a personal attack on yourself but other people's statements needed to be addressed and I assumed that you wouldn't take it as bad as you did. Sorry about that.

[Germanic Templars]

What prevented that?

Is that a loaded question or a genuine question, sorry to ask that but I don't want to argue about this anymore so I need to know what I"m getting into.

[Disserbia]

If you don't want me to react like this why did you quote me in the first place?

I was making a generalised statement using you as the catalyst. I was going to state that it wasn't a personal attack on yourself but other people's statements needed to be addressed and I assumed that you wouldn't take it as bad as you did. Sorry about that.

Its all good, on this subject on this site in the past there have been some people who have made unwarranted, untrue assumptions about my views on this conflict and have actually resorted to borderline griefing me for reasons I can't understand. ON what page is your original argument, I'd be interested to read it, but like I said, there's a lot of BS to sift though in this thread.

[Disserbia]

Is that a loaded question or a genuine question, sorry to ask that but I don't want to argue about this anymore so I need to know what I"m getting into.

War basically, which after the fact Israel wanted to make it it's capital, but its not recognized as such. Israel has de facto control over the city, and sometimes it can feel a little tensious or even segregated (this post is not about my opinion, I'm just saying the way some people see it) today.

[Costa Alegria]

ON what page is your original argument, I'd be interested to read it, but like I said, there's a lot of BS to sift though in this thread.

Page 8 if you want the one where I quoted you, Page 4 if you want my first post in this thread.

[Azariahstan]

And don't pretend the palestinians fight clean either.

He has to; the gullible Palestinian apologists refuse to acknowledge the violence perpetrated by Palestinians. Hilariously one-sided; this is why no one takes them seriously.

For an example, a child throws a rock at a tank. The tank kills the child. This is what, sadly, often never happens.

Fixed.

It's funny how you neglect to mention the Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli cities; Jewish propaganda, right?

genocide

[Disserbia]

ON what page is your original argument, I'd be interested to read it, but like I said, there's a lot of BS to sift though in this thread.

Page 8 if you want the one where I quoted you, Page 4 if you want my first post in this thread.

Page 4. Yes I thought that comment was ridiculous too. That's precisely what I mean by BS. By exaggerating statistics and straining the truth they're doing nothing for anyone, in fact making the situation worse but misinforming people with their delusions of reality. The "Greater Israel" thing is just BS, though I can see why mis-informed people might think that when people use the biblical argument for Israel's existence, because there is a bit of that manifest ideology there.

With regards to different kinds of nationalism being justified or not I'm not sure I agree, I think policies can be justified or not, not ideologies though, because they're theoretical, not specific.