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New Chinese Carrier, any thoughts?

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The UK in Exile
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Ex-Nation

Postby The UK in Exile » Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:15 am

Shofercia wrote:
The UK in Exile wrote:
yeah but heres the thing shof.



I've been on training platoon night attack. it hard enough getting 25 guys in shouting distance to launch a focused attack. so my question is, did the magic of computer handled logistics, communications, training and subordinates allow Van Riper to pull off a technically true but unrealistic victory? did Van Riper win because he was a good general? or did he win because he's a good wargamer?


I know what ya mean, but think of it this way: Numidian Cavalry Tactics have been in use for millenia. It's not hard to train your small boat navy to use similar tactics, and with enough training, you can get it done. Once you have them coordinated and circling, and you see an opening, you just give the signal for all of the boats to attack at once. The problem with the AC is that it's a huge target. The boats don't really know which part of the target they're going for, they're just hitting anything. With enough things hurled at the AC, there are going to be quite a few hits of sensitive systems.

You can either give the signal via the radio, or, if you see the radio jammed, you make sure that someone, on every boat, knows what the signal is. For instance - you fire three green rockets, and off you go. Getting people coordinated based on a single signal is easy, it's just a matter of spreading the message. Think of it this way: how many students rush out of school when the final bell rings? You hear the signal - you rush. The Red Army, during the Battle of Kursk, in the Prokhorovka Engagement, had hundreds of tanks rolling in an instant with three code words. In hockey, once the puck drops - 12 players know exactly what to do.

Now, as the boats are going for the carrier, the US Navy is not going to stand aside and say "have fun with the AC guys!" The US Navy is going to engage. So you have another guy on the boat, with a missile launcher, with orders to shoot any ship that's coming towards him. Ironically, by engaging the boats, and closing the distance, the USN is causing itself more destruction. The smart thing to do would be to let them all hit the AC, let them sink it, but then take care of the uncoordinated masses. But no modern navy will make that happen, and Van Riper knows this. In a battle - you sense your opponent's weaknesses and play on them, and in this case, the USN engaging Van Riper's Boats just helps with the kill tally.

The other thing is that the boats are counting on the USN to attack them, because it's much easier to attack a ship that's coming at you, than it is to coordinate multiple attacks against multiple ships.

So the boat crew of, let's say 4, has simple orders. One guy to watch for the signal. Once the signal is seen, the driver of the boat heads towards the AC, the missile guy hits whatever boats/ships are coming at him, and the other guy reloads and preps explosives during the collision, and the signal guy runs around with a submachine gun, helping out others. They can do that, it's just simple orders. Once the signal guy gives the command, it's all on automatic.

At least that's how I'd pull it off if I was in Van Riper's shoes.


except this is happening over 100's of miles.
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San-Silvacian
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Postby San-Silvacian » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:26 pm

Novus Niciae wrote:
Ralkovia wrote:A bullet to every other man. We shall force those capitalist out, by our bullet.

China's real power is economic. That's pretty much it.

China's economic power is potential at the moment, In a generation or two when they complete industrialization they will be a force to be reckoned with.


You mean that economic power thats already starting to faultier?
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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:15 pm

San-Silvacian wrote:
Novus Niciae wrote:China's economic power is potential at the moment, In a generation or two when they complete industrialization they will be a force to be reckoned with.


You mean that economic power thats already starting to faultier?


They had the report that Chinas growth was somewhat lower but still good. They think this might be Chinas normal growth rate. Problem is many nations of the world that have been selling to China will feel it in there own growth rates. So if they have less money they will buy less from China, US and EU.
Last edited by Rio Cana on Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tropicopa
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Postby Tropicopa » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:25 pm

What? Oh no, and I believed them when they said it was going to be a casino even though they turned down gambling rights to the owner!

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San-Silvacian
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Postby San-Silvacian » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:55 pm

Rio Cana wrote:
San-Silvacian wrote:
You mean that economic power thats already starting to faultier?


They had the report that Chinas growth was somewhat lower but still good. They think this might be Chinas normal growth rate. Problem is many nations of the world that have been selling to China will feel it in there own growth rates. So if they have less money they will buy less from China, US and EU.


Such is the economy of the world.

And when China builds large cities just to keep its industry going, they clearly have no concern for anybody but their military and their wallets.
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:14 pm

San-Silvacian wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
I know what ya mean, but think of it this way: Numidian Cavalry Tactics have been in use for millenia. It's not hard to train your small boat navy to use similar tactics, and with enough training, you can get it done. Once you have them coordinated and circling, and you see an opening, you just give the signal for all of the boats to attack at once. The problem with the AC is that it's a huge target. The boats don't really know which part of the target they're going for, they're just hitting anything. With enough things hurled at the AC, there are going to be quite a few hits of sensitive systems.

You can either give the signal via the radio, or, if you see the radio jammed, you make sure that someone, on every boat, knows what the signal is. For instance - you fire three green rockets, and off you go. Getting people coordinated based on a single signal is easy, it's just a matter of spreading the message. Think of it this way: how many students rush out of school when the final bell rings? You hear the signal - you rush. The Red Army, during the Battle of Kursk, in the Prokhorovka Engagement, had hundreds of tanks rolling in an instant with three code words. In hockey, once the puck drops - 12 players know exactly what to do.

Now, as the boats are going for the carrier, the US Navy is not going to stand aside and say "have fun with the AC guys!" The US Navy is going to engage. So you have another guy on the boat, with a missile launcher, with orders to shoot any ship that's coming towards him. Ironically, by engaging the boats, and closing the distance, the USN is causing itself more destruction. The smart thing to do would be to let them all hit the AC, let them sink it, but then take care of the uncoordinated masses. But no modern navy will make that happen, and Van Riper knows this. In a battle - you sense your opponent's weaknesses and play on them, and in this case, the USN engaging Van Riper's Boats just helps with the kill tally.

The other thing is that the boats are counting on the USN to attack them, because it's much easier to attack a ship that's coming at you, than it is to coordinate multiple attacks against multiple ships.

So the boat crew of, let's say 4, has simple orders. One guy to watch for the signal. Once the signal is seen, the driver of the boat heads towards the AC, the missile guy hits whatever boats/ships are coming at him, and the other guy reloads and preps explosives during the collision, and the signal guy runs around with a submachine gun, helping out others. They can do that, it's just simple orders. Once the signal guy gives the command, it's all on automatic.

At least that's how I'd pull it off if I was in Van Riper's shoes.



^ No understanding of naval tactics 10/10


How so? It worked during war gaming, didn't it?


The UK in Exile wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
I know what ya mean, but think of it this way: Numidian Cavalry Tactics have been in use for millenia. It's not hard to train your small boat navy to use similar tactics, and with enough training, you can get it done. Once you have them coordinated and circling, and you see an opening, you just give the signal for all of the boats to attack at once. The problem with the AC is that it's a huge target. The boats don't really know which part of the target they're going for, they're just hitting anything. With enough things hurled at the AC, there are going to be quite a few hits of sensitive systems.

You can either give the signal via the radio, or, if you see the radio jammed, you make sure that someone, on every boat, knows what the signal is. For instance - you fire three green rockets, and off you go. Getting people coordinated based on a single signal is easy, it's just a matter of spreading the message. Think of it this way: how many students rush out of school when the final bell rings? You hear the signal - you rush. The Red Army, during the Battle of Kursk, in the Prokhorovka Engagement, had hundreds of tanks rolling in an instant with three code words. In hockey, once the puck drops - 12 players know exactly what to do.

Now, as the boats are going for the carrier, the US Navy is not going to stand aside and say "have fun with the AC guys!" The US Navy is going to engage. So you have another guy on the boat, with a missile launcher, with orders to shoot any ship that's coming towards him. Ironically, by engaging the boats, and closing the distance, the USN is causing itself more destruction. The smart thing to do would be to let them all hit the AC, let them sink it, but then take care of the uncoordinated masses. But no modern navy will make that happen, and Van Riper knows this. In a battle - you sense your opponent's weaknesses and play on them, and in this case, the USN engaging Van Riper's Boats just helps with the kill tally.

The other thing is that the boats are counting on the USN to attack them, because it's much easier to attack a ship that's coming at you, than it is to coordinate multiple attacks against multiple ships.

So the boat crew of, let's say 4, has simple orders. One guy to watch for the signal. Once the signal is seen, the driver of the boat heads towards the AC, the missile guy hits whatever boats/ships are coming at him, and the other guy reloads and preps explosives during the collision, and the signal guy runs around with a submachine gun, helping out others. They can do that, it's just simple orders. Once the signal guy gives the command, it's all on automatic.

At least that's how I'd pull it off if I was in Van Riper's shoes.


except this is happening over 100's of miles.


It was happening in the Persian Gulf, the width of which is 254 kilometers, according to Wikidorkia. That's 157 miles. You can cover that distance in under 7 minutes, even if the speed is 25 MPH. However, if one was to take into consideration the fact that the navy didn't spread out over the entire Gulf, or that the AC was likely swimming in the middle, that ranged is halved, which also halves the attack time to 3.5 minutes. Remember - it was supposed to be an amphibious operation, not a battle at sea, and landings are a lot harder to pull off than naval victories where it's just navy A v navy B on open sea.
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Forsher
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Postby Forsher » Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:46 am

Shofercia wrote:
San-Silvacian wrote:



^ No understanding of naval tactics 10/10


How so? It worked during war gaming, didn't it?


I'm pretty sure he means he has no understanding of naval tactics, not the bit you've written.
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Samozaryadnyastan
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Postby Samozaryadnyastan » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:30 am

Shofercia wrote:
San-Silvacian wrote:



^ No understanding of naval tactics 10/10


How so? It worked during war gaming, didn't it?


The UK in Exile wrote:


except this is happening over 100's of miles.


It was happening in the Persian Gulf, the width of which is 254 kilometers, according to Wikidorkia. That's 157 miles. You can cover that distance in under 7 minutes, even if the speed is 25 MPH. However, if one was to take into consideration the fact that the navy didn't spread out over the entire Gulf, or that the AC was likely swimming in the middle, that ranged is halved, which also halves the attack time to 3.5 minutes. Remember - it was supposed to be an amphibious operation, not a battle at sea, and landings are a lot harder to pull off than naval victories where it's just navy A v navy B on open sea.

To travel a mile a minute, you need to be going 60mph.
To travel 157 miles at 60mph, that's more than two and a half hours. At 25mph, that's more than five hours to cover that distance, not seven minutes.
Forsher wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
How so? It worked during war gaming, didn't it?


I'm pretty sure he means he has no understanding of naval tactics, not the bit you've written.
Knowing San, I'm pretty sure he's implying that Shof doesn't have much of an understanding of naval tactic with his assessment.
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Shalekia
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Postby Shalekia » Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:36 am

Is it made of plastic?
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Papal Inquisition
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Postby Papal Inquisition » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:47 pm

Shalekia wrote:Is it made of plastic?


No, only aluminum and lead.
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San-Silvacian
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Postby San-Silvacian » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:23 pm

Papal Inquisition wrote:
Shalekia wrote:Is it made of plastic?


No, only aluminum and lead.


Its also called Happy Super Funtime Carrier.
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