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Felix Terra
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1233
Founded: Jun 05, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Felix Terra » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:30 pm

:clap:

You, sir, have made NS debates much more tolerable.
why are you looking at a post from 2012 go home you're drunk

East Apikai is my main nation nowadays

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Blakk Metal
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6543
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Blakk Metal » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:40 pm

Felix Terra wrote::clap:

You, sir, have made NS debates much more tolerable.

This was my idea, BTW.

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NERVUN
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 29456
Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:54 pm

Neo Art wrote:
NERVUN wrote:That's nice. However, since you have other amusements, you shan't miss this one then.


I'm truly baffled at the point you're trying to make here. I'm not even intending to be snarky, I'm utterly unsure how you got from point A to point B.

You were the one who asked for an example of when it was helpful. Not me. I merely pointed out that "helpfulness" is not, was not, and has never been a requirement of ones posts. Nobody on NSG has ever been required to be helpful, and to support a policy because the now banned practice wasn't helpful is to impose a standard that has never once been part of NSG, not in all the years I've been here.

And if it was banned for reasons other than "not being helpful", then I'm really not sure why you're asking for such examples.

So can I assume that you didn't read through the thread then? The whole reason I asked about the helpfulness of the posts was because we do have a few posters making such a claim, that allowing to call out trolls instead of reporting them in Moderation helps self-policing or socially calling them out, or something to that matter.

You of course tend to think of it as am amusement. Fine, there are other amusements out there, enjoy. This one is now been taken off the board.
To those who feel, life is a tragedy. To those who think, it's a comedy.
"Men, today you'll be issued small trees. Do what you can for the emperor's glory." -Daistallia 2104 on bonsai charges in WWII
Science may provide the means while religion provides the motivation but humanity and humanity alone provides the vehicle -DaWoad

One-Stop Rules Shop, read it, love it, live by it. Getting Help Mod email: nervun@nationstates.net NSG Glossary
Add 10,145 to post count from Jolt: I have it from an unimpeachable source, that Dark Side cookies look like the Death Star. The other ones look like butterflies, or bunnies, or something.-Grave_n_Idle

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NERVUN
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Posts: 29456
Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Fri Sep 28, 2012 9:56 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
NERVUN wrote:This has been the standard for years and yet... Moderation still gets reports.


Link please.


http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=200011&p=10963596&hilit=ethel#p10963596


i'm not referring to his bitching about me, but the initial post i was responding too, which he helpfully provided. Now any other conversation we have about it as a meta conversation, will violate a few forum rules. Do i have permission to do so?

Color me confused here as that's a post in Moderation... which is what we want to encourage.
To those who feel, life is a tragedy. To those who think, it's a comedy.
"Men, today you'll be issued small trees. Do what you can for the emperor's glory." -Daistallia 2104 on bonsai charges in WWII
Science may provide the means while religion provides the motivation but humanity and humanity alone provides the vehicle -DaWoad

One-Stop Rules Shop, read it, love it, live by it. Getting Help Mod email: nervun@nationstates.net NSG Glossary
Add 10,145 to post count from Jolt: I have it from an unimpeachable source, that Dark Side cookies look like the Death Star. The other ones look like butterflies, or bunnies, or something.-Grave_n_Idle

Proud Member of FMGADHPAC. Join today!

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NERVUN
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Posts: 29456
Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Right-wing Utopia

Postby NERVUN » Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:00 pm

Neo Art wrote:
Esternial wrote:So try and look from another point of view, it might help you get a better grasp on the situation. Posts with little more than "OP is a troll" are a terrible waste of space and only proves how terrible someone is at properly debating. If you think the topic isn't worth replying to, don't reply at all.


You're right in the sense that "You're a troll" is a terrible method of proper debate. And that would be of relevance, if NSG was, even tangentially, a place where something that could even extraordinarily generously be described as "proper debating" actually happened.

But it's not, and it gets further and further from that point every year.

And if the culture of this site was such that actually encouraged, fostered, supported and nurtured intelligent discussion, discourse, and debate, then I'd be behind this rule 100%.

But it isn't, for reasons far more pervasive than "You're a troll!", which makes this rule less "supporting intellectual debate" and more "niggling micromanagement".

Virtually nobody here is engaged in anything remotely close to "serious debate". And I count myself amongst that group. The only difference is, I'm honest about it. The irony being I'm one of very few people on NSG to really attempt an ACTUAL formal debate, back in the day.

It's never been a place for real debate, it's just a place to kill time, with a ruleset that suggest that if we're going to kill time, we can try to at least not be overtly hostile to one another. Expanding that premise into the realm of "thou shalt not say" is just..well..niggling micromanagement seems to fit best.

Ah! Now I see.

No, this isn't micromanagement, this is trying to stop time killing by repeatedly posting "Troll" over and over again.

If that really is how you wish to kill time, there's other places where you are allowed to do so, your own forum for example, or YouTube comments. But the fact of the matter is that we have noticed this is stopping discussion. There IS no discussion with nothing but are not, are so posts repeated endlessly.

We never pretended to be a formal debate board, we have claimed to want to allow people a chance to discuss things though.
To those who feel, life is a tragedy. To those who think, it's a comedy.
"Men, today you'll be issued small trees. Do what you can for the emperor's glory." -Daistallia 2104 on bonsai charges in WWII
Science may provide the means while religion provides the motivation but humanity and humanity alone provides the vehicle -DaWoad

One-Stop Rules Shop, read it, love it, live by it. Getting Help Mod email: nervun@nationstates.net NSG Glossary
Add 10,145 to post count from Jolt: I have it from an unimpeachable source, that Dark Side cookies look like the Death Star. The other ones look like butterflies, or bunnies, or something.-Grave_n_Idle

Proud Member of FMGADHPAC. Join today!

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Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f
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Posts: 9191
Founded: Jan 21, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:06 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:But the Banhammer shall ride forth and smite them mightily. Trust me, mob rule is never a good idea. If the mods feel that someone is trolling, they'll make them flatter than a pancake soon enough. If you can't trust their judgement in the matter, maybe another forum would be better?


i am not always looking to get someone smacked by a mod, moderation should be a last resort, not a first, unless it is completely blatant.

I asked a question in moderation that was called rules lawyering by a mod, so i still don't know if it was acceptable or not.


You'll find that happens sometimes...when you question the rules and ask for clarification you are putting a mod on the spot. Some can deal with it rationally and engage with you to gain clarity. Other mods don't seem to be able to handle that or just can't be bothered and shut down the thread with the claim that you are "rules lawyering".
PLEASE DO NOT SEND ME TG's. MODERATORS READ YOUR TG's WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers Call me Rubi for short or Vonners

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Neo Art
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Posts: 14258
Founded: Jan 09, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Neo Art » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:51 am

NERVUN wrote:You of course tend to think of it as am amusement. Fine, there are other amusements out there, enjoy. This one is now been taken off the board.


"If you don't like it you can leave"? Really?

Please. I thought you were better than that. If it has not been made abudantly clear by now, my only true objection is that this entire rule will accomplish nothing, change nothing, improve nothing, and despite being filled with sound and fury, signify nothing.

In short, it's nothing more than a complete waste of time.

But at the end of the day, it's not my time being wasted. It's yours. And if you value your own time so little that you'll squander it on this pointless exercise have at it. It has no real impact in my day to day in the slightest.
if you were Batman you'd be home by now

"Consistency is a matter we are attempting to remedy." - Dread Lady Nathinaca

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Neo Art
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Posts: 14258
Founded: Jan 09, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Neo Art » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:56 am

NERVUN wrote:We never pretended to be a formal debate board, we have claimed to want to allow people a chance to discuss things though.


Forgive me. I didn't go to Hogwarts, so I missed the class where "you're a troll" magically compells people into stopping whatever they're doing and descent into a virtual frenzy.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the only kind of people who would use "you're a troll" as a jumping off point for derailing their own discussion were the very same people who were using it as an opportunity to derail the discussion.

Which amusingly means that it only works when it's true.
if you were Batman you'd be home by now

"Consistency is a matter we are attempting to remedy." - Dread Lady Nathinaca

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Esternial
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Posts: 51826
Founded: May 09, 2009
Democratic Socialists

Postby Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:57 am

Neo Art wrote:
NERVUN wrote:You of course tend to think of it as am amusement. Fine, there are other amusements out there, enjoy. This one is now been taken off the board.


"If you don't like it you can leave"? Really?

Please. I thought you were better than that. If it has not been made abudantly clear by now, my only true objection is that this entire rule will accomplish nothing, change nothing, improve nothing, and despite being filled with sound and fury, signify nothing.

In short, it's nothing more than a complete waste of time.

But at the end of the day, it's not my time being wasted. It's yours. And if you value your own time so little that you'll squander it on this pointless exercise have at it. It has no real impact in my day to day in the slightest.

Despite the redundancy of this rule, you seem to be making a pretty big deal out of it.

So again, we should question who's wasting his time here; you complaining about a minor rule or NERVUN trying to explain it to you. I agree, NERVUN is wasting his time; so if you'd like the Mods to use their time for more valuable means, stop complaining about something as insignificant as this.

As a final note; It might not affect you, but then again the world doesn't revolve around you alone.

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Jormengand
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Posts: 8414
Founded: May 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:06 am

NERVUN wrote:I'm curious here, can those who are against this rule point out a thread where the ability to call someone a troll has indeed proved helpful? Because the reason being put forth against this is that somehow calling someone a troll in thread, as opposed to reporting it in Moderation, helps self-police the thread.

"Don't feed the troll" has previously been condoned by the mods - I'll try to find you a link at some point.
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.

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Esternial
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Posts: 51826
Founded: May 09, 2009
Democratic Socialists

Postby Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:07 am

Jormengand wrote:
NERVUN wrote:I'm curious here, can those who are against this rule point out a thread where the ability to call someone a troll has indeed proved helpful? Because the reason being put forth against this is that somehow calling someone a troll in thread, as opposed to reporting it in Moderation, helps self-police the thread.

"Don't feed the troll" has previously been condoned by the mods - I'll try to find you a link at some point.

Most Mod rulings are made in consensus, so I'm assuming all the mods agree.

Things change.

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Neo Art
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Posts: 14258
Founded: Jan 09, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Neo Art » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:07 am

Esternial wrote:
As a final note; It might not affect you, but then again the world doesn't revolve around you alone.


Silly. Of course it does.

As to the rest, I'll say yet again, of course I'm wasting my time. That's what NSG is. It's a time waster. Nothing more or less.

And the only difference between me and the majority of other posters here, is that I admit it.

And the simple truth is, that pointing out that NSG's sole function for me (and indeed, I'd hazard a guess to say it is so for virtually EVERYBODY) is to kill time between more important things is not (at least for now) actually against the rules here.
Last edited by Neo Art on Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
if you were Batman you'd be home by now

"Consistency is a matter we are attempting to remedy." - Dread Lady Nathinaca

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Jormengand
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Posts: 8414
Founded: May 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:08 am

Esternial wrote:
Jormengand wrote:"Don't feed the troll" has previously been condoned by the mods - I'll try to find you a link at some point.

Most Mod rulings are made in consensus, so I'm assuming all the mods agree.

Things change.

It's also proven *gasp* useful.

Who'da thunk it?
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.

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Esternial
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Posts: 51826
Founded: May 09, 2009
Democratic Socialists

Postby Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:10 am

Jormengand wrote:
Esternial wrote:Most Mod rulings are made in consensus, so I'm assuming all the mods agree.

Things change.

It's also proven *gasp* useful.

Who'da thunk it?

So sometimes it helps.

So you're saying that if something results in a negative outcome only in 9/10 times we should allow it? The analogy with medicine comes to mind, albeit a bit too powerful.

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Jormengand
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Posts: 8414
Founded: May 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:12 am

Esternial wrote:
Jormengand wrote:It's also proven *gasp* useful.

Who'da thunk it?

So sometimes it helps.

So you're saying that if something results in a negative outcome only in 9/10 times we should allow it? The analogy with medicine comes to mind, albeit a bit too powerful.

If you knew when medicine was going to be useful and when it wasn't, you would use it when it would be, would you not?
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.

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The Legion of Kane
Minister
 
Posts: 2802
Founded: Aug 31, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Legion of Kane » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:12 am

If there is such a big disagreement over this new rule, why not make a poll, just sayin'. I myself think this rule is now, ridiculous.

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Esternial
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 51826
Founded: May 09, 2009
Democratic Socialists

Postby Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:13 am

Jormengand wrote:
Esternial wrote:So sometimes it helps.

So you're saying that if something results in a negative outcome only in 9/10 times we should allow it? The analogy with medicine comes to mind, albeit a bit too powerful.

If you knew when medicine was going to be useful and when it wasn't, you would use it when it would be, would you not?

Yes, so you know when posting "Don't feed the troll" will be effective?

I'm going to be frank: That's bullshit.
Last edited by Esternial on Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Goodclark
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Posts: 1508
Founded: Jan 08, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Goodclark » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:15 am

You guys are awesome.
Political Compass: 10, -5.5

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Jormengand
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Posts: 8414
Founded: May 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:17 am

Esternial wrote:
Jormengand wrote:If you knew when medicine was going to be useful and when it wasn't, you would use it when it would be, would you not?

Yes, so you know when posting "Don't feed the troll" will be effective?

I'm going to be frank: That's bullshit.

Going "TROLL! TROLL! TROLL!" is ineffective. Going "Given that [reasons why this guy is clearly trolling], they are likely a troll. Feed thou not the troll" is almost certainly going to be more effective.
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.

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Esternial
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 51826
Founded: May 09, 2009
Democratic Socialists

Postby Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:26 am

Jormengand wrote:
Esternial wrote:Yes, so you know when posting "Don't feed the troll" will be effective?

I'm going to be frank: That's bullshit.

Going "TROLL! TROLL! TROLL!" is ineffective. Going "Given that [reasons why this guy is clearly trolling], they are likely a troll. Feed thou not the troll" is almost certainly going to be more effective.

Yeah, and then the troll starts arguing about how he's not a troll and the entire threads goes off-topic regardless; lovely.

Reporting to Moderation is the easier method. Troll gets reprimanded and served his well-deserved meal.

Plus you can't predict whether someone won't just go go "TROLL!". I doubt the mods are going to count on everyone's good nature.
Last edited by Esternial on Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Jormengand
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Posts: 8414
Founded: May 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:30 am

Esternial wrote:
Jormengand wrote:Going "TROLL! TROLL! TROLL!" is ineffective. Going "Given that [reasons why this guy is clearly trolling], they are likely a troll. Feed thou not the troll" is almost certainly going to be more effective.

Yeah, and then the troll starts arguing about how he's not a troll and the entire threads goes off-topic regardless; lovely.

Reporting to Moderation is the easier method. Troll gets reprimanded and served his well-deserved meal.

Plus you can't predict whether someone won't just go go "TROLL!". I doubt the mods are going to count on everyone's good nature.

The thread going off topic is better than people being trolled.
The mods are not always online.
The mods can judge on a case-by-case, rather than making a blanket rule.#

Anything else?
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.

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Woodstead
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Posts: 1822
Founded: Apr 14, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Woodstead » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:30 am

I approve; there are too many people making these accusation, just because people maintain a very individual, extreme approach, which is not intended to gain a response, but only to report the truth.
I don't use this account anymore. Need to TG me? Just hit up Nyasott or Cez-Zaeri.

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Esternial
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 51826
Founded: May 09, 2009
Democratic Socialists

Postby Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:41 am

Jormengand wrote:
Esternial wrote:Yeah, and then the troll starts arguing about how he's not a troll and the entire threads goes off-topic regardless; lovely.

Reporting to Moderation is the easier method. Troll gets reprimanded and served his well-deserved meal.

Plus you can't predict whether someone won't just go go "TROLL!". I doubt the mods are going to count on everyone's good nature.

The thread going off topic is better than people being trolled.
The mods are not always online.
The mods can judge on a case-by-case, rather than making a blanket rule.#

Anything else?

Yeah, your point? As I said: Report to moderation instead of posting yourself and ignore the troll.

No, the mods might not always be online, but regardless you should report the troll in Moderation. Mods already go through each case, and searching threads in general for trolls because someone can't be arsed to simply report it in Moderation is a drain of time that could be spent on other things.

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Jormengand
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8414
Founded: May 22, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Jormengand » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:43 am

Esternial wrote:
Jormengand wrote:The thread going off topic is better than people being trolled.
The mods are not always online.
The mods can judge on a case-by-case, rather than making a blanket rule.#

Anything else?

Yeah, your point? As I said: Report to moderation instead of posting yourself and ignore the troll.

No, the mods might not always be online, but regardless you should report the troll in Moderation. Mods already go through each case, and searching threads in general for trolls because someone can't be arsed to simply report it in Moderation is a drain of time that could be spent on other things.

Read my first point. They can, of course, report the troll in Mod'n as well, but "don't feed the troll" responses can, surprise surprise, prevent the troll from being fed.
Jormengand wrote:It would be really meta if I sigged this.

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Esternial
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 51826
Founded: May 09, 2009
Democratic Socialists

Postby Esternial » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:48 am

Jormengand wrote:
Esternial wrote:Yeah, your point? As I said: Report to moderation instead of posting yourself and ignore the troll.

No, the mods might not always be online, but regardless you should report the troll in Moderation. Mods already go through each case, and searching threads in general for trolls because someone can't be arsed to simply report it in Moderation is a drain of time that could be spent on other things.

Read my first point. They can, of course, report the troll in Mod'n as well, but "don't feed the troll" responses can, surprise surprise, prevent the troll from being fed.

Point taken, you're probably still free to do something similar, but calling someone a troll is prohibited. There's no rule about saying something along the line of "Please ignore this guy, he's not adding anything relevant to the subject"

For one, it's much more eloquent than posting "Don't feed the troll", because there are people that may take that as an offense.

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