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New forum offense: Trollnaming

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Free South Califas
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Postby Free South Califas » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:33 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:I'm guessing from the modposts in this thread that it will only be applied in cases where no actual content has been put forward, just the accusation of trolling. But really, that may as well fall under the spam rules since if you accept the idea that just calling someone a troll is a post of no content, then it counts as spam, doesn't it?


This. It seems we're still allowed to demonstrate/conclude that someone is a troll in a reply outside Moderation, and generally to name trolls as long as it's not spammy. (For the record, that status quo is my desired end.) This fundamental duality renders the rule as written meaningless; just try to find a new, enforceable rule in this text:
Calling another player "troll" in discussion threads is getting out of hand.

The moderators have decided to add a new violation category, trollnaming, which can fall under the categories of flaming, flamebaiting, trolling, or simply spam, depending on moderators' interpretation of use. Warnings for trollnaming will be handed out to egregious violators at first, in hopes of curbing this practice. If that fails to get people's attention, the penalties may be applied to anyone using the term "troll" as a substitute for actual debating.
This new "rule" appears to be an empty vessel designed to deliver other, perfectly serviceable rules through a pure-interpretation methodology (no categorical imperative is outlined which could not already be inferred by existing rules). The fact that it's already devolved to the point of all spirit and no letter in a day or less is most troubling to me. While I admire the intent, the rule's own description utterly fails to explain it, and we have to rely on a separate discussion thread to get even a general sense of the rule's boundaries. I get the sense that there was an attempt to cover this in the OP/rule ("Warnings...actual debating"), but in practice, it's less of a helpful explanation than a delineation of moderation tactics, which is as pointless as it is out-of-place. Adding insult to injury, "as a substitute for actual debating" raises even more questions of interpretation, which go unanswered until moderation is pressed to explain in the discussion thread.

This kind of jumbled rulemaking is a poor substitute for actually explaining your existing rules. Why are we here talking Philosophy of Spam when you could have just enforced the existing spam rule with the explanation that, yes, saying "TROLL!" and not much else totally counts as spam? I'm wary of any rule which relies almost entirely on case-by-case interpretation which should already be taking place under the other rules; at best it's a sign of myopia in the moderation department (or just the NSG mods, I don't know), but at worst a trend in the direction of all-interpretation rules makes it difficult for autistics and other literal-minded people to participate freely.

On reflection, it seems your goal is to encourage appropriate self-censorship and back it up with the familiar warning/punishment system. Why not just say that, so we understand what you mean and can abide by it? At most, this merits a "New interpretation", not a "New offense".

ETA:
NERVUN wrote:It's the TROLL! posts that are now not.


What is it about the spam/meme rule(s) that was(/were) inadequate for dealing with them?

Norstal wrote:Good. Now when will you mods take my advice and make a rule about proper grammar and spelling? :P


Is this supposed to be something other than naked racism/nativism? Just Kidding :P LOL :lol:
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Postby Reploid Productions » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:42 pm

Free South Califas wrote: I'm wary of any rule which relies almost entirely on case-by-case interpretation

Iiiiin other words, all of them? Because we judge everything on a case by case basis dependent on the ruling mod's interpretation (and often in consultation with other mods) as is.
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Postby Free South Califas » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:50 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:
Free South Califas wrote: I'm wary of any rule which relies almost entirely on case-by-case interpretation

Iiiiin other words, all of them? Because we judge everything on a case by case basis dependent on the ruling mod's interpretation (and often in consultation with other mods) as is.

I didn't say I object to the practice of moderation in general. I do object to your dismissive tone, especially when applied to half a sentence, clipped out of context to make me look foolish. What do I do when it seems clear to me that someone understands that the position they're attributing to me is an outrageous strawman on the verge of parodying reductionism as a whole?
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Postby Nadkor » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:36 am

Free South Califas wrote:What do I do when it seems clear to me that someone understands that the position they're attributing to me is an outrageous strawman on the verge of parodying reductionism as a whole?


In that case I'd probably suggest caring a little bit less about what someone on the internet thinks?
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Postby Smartass alcoholics » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:17 am

Finally. Apparently in some forums, "Logical proven debating" = trolling. Someone explain the logic behind that, again? (sarcasm, dont actually explain it)
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Postby Nidaria » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:25 am

What happens if I call myself a troll?
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Postby San Leggera » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:37 am

Nidaria wrote:What happens if I call myself a troll?

I've already asked that.
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Phocidaea
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Postby Phocidaea » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:07 pm

Can I put my thoughts here? A quote of mine from another thread:

There are legitimate times and subjects where calling troll is beneficial. An across-the-board ban on it can only encourage troll behavior, since no one can call them out on it.


This is exactly what I think is wrong with the rule. Feel free to argue against it. If you can show any rational benefit in this rule, then I'll be happy about it.
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Postby The Emerald Dawn » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:17 pm

Phocidaea wrote:Can I put my thoughts here? A quote of mine from another thread:

There are legitimate times and subjects where calling troll is beneficial. An across-the-board ban on it can only encourage troll behavior, since no one can call them out on it.


This is exactly what I think is wrong with the rule. Feel free to argue against it. If you can show any rational benefit in this rule, then I'll be happy about it.

If you have a concern about a troll, REPORT THEM.

We're not being thrown to the wolves in the wild. The Mods will handle it.

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Postby Phocidaea » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:22 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:Can I put my thoughts here? A quote of mine from another thread:



This is exactly what I think is wrong with the rule. Feel free to argue against it. If you can show any rational benefit in this rule, then I'll be happy about it.

If you have a concern about a troll, REPORT THEM.

We're not being thrown to the wolves in the wild. The Mods will handle it.


But it's a lot more efficient if we're allowed to take this into our own hands. Besides, by making it still "legal" in the moderation section, all that will change about the handful of people who actually are only calling troll for lulz will be that they will have to switch sections of the forum.
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Postby The Emerald Dawn » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:24 pm

Phocidaea wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:If you have a concern about a troll, REPORT THEM.

We're not being thrown to the wolves in the wild. The Mods will handle it.


But it's a lot more efficient if we're allowed to take this into our own hands. Besides, by making it still "legal" in the moderation section, all that will change about the handful of people who actually are only calling troll for lulz will be that they will have to switch sections of the forum.

But the Banhammer shall ride forth and smite them mightily. Trust me, mob rule is never a good idea. If the mods feel that someone is trolling, they'll make them flatter than a pancake soon enough. If you can't trust their judgement in the matter, maybe another forum would be better?

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Postby Phocidaea » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:00 pm

The Emerald Dawn wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:
But it's a lot more efficient if we're allowed to take this into our own hands. Besides, by making it still "legal" in the moderation section, all that will change about the handful of people who actually are only calling troll for lulz will be that they will have to switch sections of the forum.

But the Banhammer shall ride forth and smite them mightily. Trust me, mob rule is never a good idea. If the mods feel that someone is trolling, they'll make them flatter than a pancake soon enough. If you can't trust their judgement in the matter, maybe another forum would be better?


We got a thread that, in one day, racked up ten pages, even though most people believed it was a troll thread, before any moderator action was taken against it.

Hyeeeaaaaah...
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Postby Condunum » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:46 pm

Phocidaea wrote:
The Emerald Dawn wrote:If you have a concern about a troll, REPORT THEM.

We're not being thrown to the wolves in the wild. The Mods will handle it.


But it's a lot more efficient if we're allowed to take this into our own hands. Besides, by making it still "legal" in the moderation section, all that will change about the handful of people who actually are only calling troll for lulz will be that they will have to switch sections of the forum.

The reason why it's legal in moderation is because that was the location that the accusations were intended to take place. That those calling the person a troll would move there is actually a good thing, because then they're following the procedure for reporting something. Chances are though, most of the people won't be reporting anything, because they couldn't be arsed to move their attention to Moderation.
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:54 pm

Condunum wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:
But it's a lot more efficient if we're allowed to take this into our own hands. Besides, by making it still "legal" in the moderation section, all that will change about the handful of people who actually are only calling troll for lulz will be that they will have to switch sections of the forum.

The reason why it's legal in moderation is because that was the location that the accusations were intended to take place. That those calling the person a troll would move there is actually a good thing, because then they're following the procedure for reporting something. Chances are though, most of the people won't be reporting anything, because they couldn't be arsed to move their attention to Moderation.

Yeah, I really don't get why "if you think someone is trolling, report them" is that hard of a concept to grasp...
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:01 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Condunum wrote:The reason why it's legal in moderation is because that was the location that the accusations were intended to take place. That those calling the person a troll would move there is actually a good thing, because then they're following the procedure for reporting something. Chances are though, most of the people won't be reporting anything, because they couldn't be arsed to move their attention to Moderation.

Yeah, I really don't get why "if you think someone is tolling, report them" is that hard of a concept to grasp...


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Postby Yes Im Biop » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:02 pm

Seems kinda micro managing don't it? Anyway will be nice to not have to read over annoying statements.
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:05 pm

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Yeah, I really don't get why "if you think someone is tolling, report them" is that hard of a concept to grasp...


*tolls you*

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Postby Neo Art » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:10 pm

Frankly, I'm not terribly sure what's worse. There's the fact that this *cough* policy seems to have been created under the idea that people calling out "troll" was being used "as a substitute for actual debating" under some strange belief that anything that has happened on NSG in the last several years, save for a vanishingly few diamonds in the rough, has even approached the most generously liberal definition of "debate".

Then there's the fact that this policy actually suggests that most of the folks who get labeled as such somehow are not actually, definitionally, trolls, and all the one post wonders out there who, despite seeming brand new to the NSG community, somehow JUST SO HAPPEN to come swinging out the gate with opinions almost specifically designed to be controversial and are really trully posting really truly legitimate opinions that they really, truly, felt the need to share with this brand new and undiscovered community (as opposed to, I suppose, "hello") and that calling this person "troll" stiffles the real true debate he really, truly wanted to have, instead of puppet wanking for the pure purpose of causing controversy, because something like that has never ever happened before.

It's a quite odd policy that seems to suggest that the average NSG user is both simultaniously a shining beacon of intellectual wonder, truly interested in sparkling discourse, except for the distraction posed by all the rabble shouting "troll" everywhere, and yet posessing a level of skill in deductive reasoning akin to a fern, or, if we're being generous, maybe a house pet.
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Postby Condunum » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:11 pm

Yes Im Biop wrote:Seems kinda micro managing don't it? Anyway will be nice to not have to read over annoying statements.

Given the number of times this has been said recently, I don't blame the mods for this rule. It was getting really ridiculous, really fast.
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Postby Yes Im Biop » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:13 pm

Condunum wrote:
Yes Im Biop wrote:Seems kinda micro managing don't it? Anyway will be nice to not have to read over annoying statements.

Given the number of times this has been said recently, I don't blame the mods for this rule. It was getting really ridiculous, really fast.


Agreed...Now i know why Spree was pissed today... Poor Guy.

ANYWAY. Yeah.
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Postby Franklin Delano Bluth » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:19 pm

At this point, I would suggest that anyone who at any time gets so much as the slightest inkling of a tickling feeling that a post might just, if you squint in just the right way in a full moon at high tide, possibly have a remote chance of maybe being kind of a troll post, go ahead and report it as a troll. Just to be safe.

Then the mods will be forced to decide if they really want to go through with this. Because this nonsense has got to stop if NSG is to remain a functioning community.
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Postby Reploid Productions » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:44 pm

Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:At this point, I would suggest that anyone who at any time gets so much as the slightest inkling of a tickling feeling that a post might just, if you squint in just the right way in a full moon at high tide, possibly have a remote chance of maybe being kind of a troll post, go ahead and report it as a troll. Just to be safe.

Then the mods will be forced to decide if they really want to go through with this. Because this nonsense has got to stop if NSG is to remain a functioning community.

We generally can tell when someone (or several someones) is intentionally making tons of frivolous or nearly-frivolous reports. They typically get told that the complaint is not actionable or to grow a thicker skin, and if a pattern... perhaps one specifically geared to very intentionally waste as much moderator time is possible starts to emerge, then we have to get a little bit more... stern.

Just sayin'.
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Postby Franklin Delano Bluth » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:49 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:
Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:At this point, I would suggest that anyone who at any time gets so much as the slightest inkling of a tickling feeling that a post might just, if you squint in just the right way in a full moon at high tide, possibly have a remote chance of maybe being kind of a troll post, go ahead and report it as a troll. Just to be safe.

Then the mods will be forced to decide if they really want to go through with this. Because this nonsense has got to stop if NSG is to remain a functioning community.

We generally can tell when someone (or several someones) is intentionally making tons of frivolous or nearly-frivolous reports. They typically get told that the complaint is not actionable or to grow a thicker skin, and if a pattern... perhaps one specifically geared to very intentionally waste as much moderator time is possible starts to emerge, then we have to get a little bit more... stern.

Just sayin'.


That's not the point.

If enough people start doing this, and you start getting literally thousands of such reports a day, you'll still have to wade through them all. Are you really willing to do that?

And even if you do that, then if you want to have any hope of retaining whatever small credibility (most of) you have left, you'll find yourself "sanctioning" just about every regular contributor. NSG would then be dead, and you'd have nowhere to throw your weight around. Is that a risk you're really willing to take?

All because you were unwilling to admit that maybe, just maybe, you had a bad idea. Is that really what you want?
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Postby NERVUN » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:41 am

I'm curious here, can those who are against this rule point out a thread where the ability to call someone a troll has indeed proved helpful? Because the reason being put forth against this is that somehow calling someone a troll in thread, as opposed to reporting it in Moderation, helps self-police the thread.
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Postby Neo Art » Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:49 am

NERVUN wrote:I'm curious here, can those who are against this rule point out a thread where the ability to call someone a troll has indeed proved helpful? Because the reason being put forth against this is that somehow calling someone a troll in thread, as opposed to reporting it in Moderation, helps self-police the thread.


Helpful? You want players to have to justify their actions by proving that their posts are helpful?

It has nothing whatsoever to do with being helpful. It has to do with being vaguely, mildly, temporarily amusing.

Which is the only reason anyone actually posts here at all. All these years, you still haven't figured that out?
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